The Mask (1994 film) related to The Magic Consciousness Structure

[LukeJTM]

Hi everyone,

I have just came across an absolutely fascinating video on YouTube. The author compares events and plot points surrounding the main character (portrayed by Jim Carrey) to Jean Gebser's work "The Ever Present Origin", in particular the Magic Consciousness Structure and the Mental Consciousness Structure; the main character in the film activates the Magic Consciousness structure through stressful experiences.
I had not considered this film in this way before. However, I am still very new to Gebser's work, keep in mind, but from what little I know so far... it is mind blowing.
Anyway, I thought people here might appreciate this one.

[Federica]

Hi Luke,

For my part I haven't read Gebser and I haven't seen The Mask (I know, it's weird. I guess the reason is, the film has become such a popular, omnipresent cultural reference, and in the end the references have exhausted my curiosity for watching the entire film). I have given the video a try, but have given up rather quickly... that breathless video editing is terrible isn't it?
This, plus the guy's accent makes it a bit laborious for me to follow. But browsing the other video topics, I would not be surprised if there were some common ground between the channel and the discussions of this forum.
In the video, is there a crucial part that you could point to?

[LukeJTM]

Hi Luke,

For my part I haven't read Gebser and I haven't seen The Mask (I know, it's weird. I guess the reason is, the film has become such a popular, omnipresent cultural reference, and in the end the references have exhausted my curiosity for watching the entire film). I have given the video a try, but have given up rather quickly... that breathless video editing is terrible isn't it?
This, plus the guy's accent makes it a bit laborious for me to follow. But browsing the other video topics, I would not be surprised if there were some common ground between the channel and the discussions of this forum.
In the video, is there a crucial part that you could point to?

Hi Federica,

I don't know about the cultural references, I have seen the film only. I kinda live under a rock
The Mask is a bit of a silly film sure, but yes there are some parts of the video that stood out for me that I think are worthy of discussion. Thanks for asking. I wish I had done that when i first posted that, but it's better now than never.

One interesting point that stood out was how he brings up, which I would say is related to what is discussed on here, is how Gebser described Magic Consciousness as having timeless and spaceless conditions. Whereas, mental structure (the abstract intellect structures) is the complete opposite--time and space are objective in that consciousness structure. For ex. he points out how in our culture we have huge clock towers worldwide, and watches, and all sorts. Every hour, minute, and second is spatialized into discrete units. We transform time into a tangible, physical phenomenon. We get phrases like "time must not be wasted", or it "can be run out of", or possesed in greater or smaller "quantities" because of this mode of thinking. And so on. This objectivisation of time (and also space) does not occur in the Magic Consciousness structure.

I think that's an interesting point that I have wondered myself but never managed to grasp an understanding as clear as this. It's interesting how the abstract models we find today in science all do this. Time is idealised into some sort of flat or sequential dimension that we are bound by; it is abstracted into an absolute property of reality. But what is it actually?

I noticed how this abstraction happens in Bernardo Kastrup's model of "temporal dissociation". As far as I understand it, he hypothesises that we are all connected by temporal rhythms in the Mind At Large, but as dissociated alters. He claims as "alters" we are occupying different moments in time, however that time is only linear or sequential. So we sort of flicker through these sequential moments... the theory gets confusing to me, honestly, so forgive if my explanation doesn't do it justice. Anyway, I point this out because it seems like an example of the idealisation of linear time into something rigid and objective happening in idealist circles. Nothing wrong with that, but my point is it shows areas in our unconscious that have not been shone a light on, so to speak, and therefore worth a look at.

I also thought it was interesting how the video narrator points out the mask's supernatural powers (in the film) only work at night. He points out that night generally symbolises the awakening of unconscious powers. For Gebser, night represents the abolition of perspectivity. Night (the light vanishes) is a condition where objects lose their extension and dimensionality; things can be confused with one another. Whereas daylight represents consciousness in an apollonian order. I thought this is a point that is worth exploring. This happens in sleep to everyone of us. When I am in a dream, or just dreamless sleep, it feels like I am "nowhere" or "everywhere". There is no distinguishable spatial features I can discern, it is intangible. Whereas waking consciousness has the features of spatial properties and objects that I can distinguish from one another.
In other words, there seems to be a definite cognitive element to space, like with time.

I hope what I have written makes any sense. I am wondering if it is even possible to go further into what I have said. Has what I said been discussed in depth before on this forum? That's something I am wondering actually.

[LukeJTM]

Some last thoughts:

I wonder if it might be better to merge this thread in with another one? Perhaps there's some other thread still ongoing that is discussing the cognitive structures of time and space, and my post could just go into that maybe. Any thoughts, let me know.

[AshvinP]

I noticed how this abstraction happens in Bernardo Kastrup's model of "temporal dissociation". As far as I understand it, he hypothesises that we are all connected by temporal rhythms in the Mind At Large, but as dissociated alters. He claims as "alters" we are occupying different moments in time, however that time is only linear or sequential. So we sort of flicker through these sequential moments... the theory gets confusing to me, honestly, so forgive if my explanation doesn't do it justice. Anyway, I point this out because it seems like an example of the idealisation of linear time into something rigid and objective happening in idealist circles. Nothing wrong with that, but my point is it shows areas in our unconscious that have not been shone a light on, so to speak, and therefore worth a look at.

Luke,

These are really interesting points you raise. I may have some more comments on Gebser's framework later, which is an outer conceptual perspective on the spiritual evolution Barfield and Steiner explored as well, from a more inner perspective. There are many interesting alignments and Gebser also noticed the critical importance of the Christ events, without which none of this spiritual evolutionary progression really makes sense.

I wanted to mention that I was recently discussing this 'TD model' with Elk on Discord. I will simply share the comments below for now (I am posting a few different ones for context, so it is a bit lengthy). Elk has a strong intellectual capacity for these things, so it is interesting to hear his perspective. Basically, I think your assessment is correct and the TD model seems like a ceiling to the analytical idealist approach.

(btw, he is familiar with Steiner, PoF, spiritual science, higher cognition, etc., as we have discussed it before, so that's why I don't give more background of what I am speaking of in the comments below)

***

Elk: If MAL is a Mind of its own, and it is where this logical structure is implemented, but it is also not, exactly, or own personal Mind RN, then the decommbination problem still remains, time or not time

But if it is our own Mind (or, more precisely, our experience) RN, then new questions arise, which I have never seen Bernardo address, like where or how is this logical structure (or as I call it, the world memory) implemented (cuz seemingly my experience is of being a person in a room, not of being a Mind that knows it all)? Or how does the process of alter switching take place if it is not done volitionally by us, or how are the perceptions of others animated as if they have a life of their own, when only our personal thoughts and feelings are present in this exact moment
Etc., etc., etc.

There are so, so many great avenues of inquiry with the theory of temporal dissociation. I just hope he is not stuck on some incoherent conception of daddy MAL in the sky...

me: What your thoughts on how we can go about investigating those questions (which I agree are important to ask)? Do you agree that we will never find satisfactory answers for them by more conceptual modeling? If not, I wonder how the TD model can be further refined to shed light on such questions.

Also, I am assuming you agree the ideational process responsible for our heart beating is not always present in our personal thoughts and feelings, in so far as we are aware of them. And furthermore that this process does not halt while we are unaware of it. How is that fact encompassed by the TD model?


Elk: Hi, Soul. I'll respond to your previous comments later. But, about this: I think that both first person experience and conceptual modelling are important here. However, the satisfaction conceptual models give is ultimately dependant on the intellect that is conjuring or conceiving of them. Or, to put it in other words, for a given intellect, any one model can be satisfactory, even as it may fail to be satisfactory to another (which is exactly what happens to an extent with all these metaphysical wars we seem to wage). So even if I find what I would call "satisfactory" answers, I'm not under the complete delusion that my intellect is infallible.

Now, about direct experience, the problem remains that something like dissociation can only be observed while it is not there,, it can only be observed indirectly, because it entails a lack. Even if I go up the ladder of consciousness and become a Mind capable of seeing my past personality and that of others as an integrated whole, this in itself does not yield absolute proof of the process of dissociation, because all I would have then would just be my present experience, and no access to an actual past or future, nor to a third person perspective that would allow me to see the "fragmentation" of my own consciousness. I would have to believe then, in my memories, etc.

So, from where I'm standing, both paths need faith if they are to yield any truths relating to anything but the present moment of experience. However, I'm accutely aware (even if this belief is faith based too) that the experiential path can yield a convincing power and a capacity for restructuring of one's own cognitive scaffolding that simple theorizing is not able to produce, AFAIK, and, more importantly, it is more meaningful.
...
Do you remember the (G) diagram I posted earlier? ⁠analytic-idealism⁠

There is more to this, however, that I'm yet to elaborate on in a more formal way. But, basically, there is the element of "mental inertia", via which the determinator in the past (G) will put into movement some of my experience (like perceptions), so that the illusion of being a separate self-determining intellect confronted by a self-animated world arises. Even this illusion is not unbreakable, as experienced meditators can attest, but this would help explain how other persons, animals, cells, etc., can (indirectly) inform the behavior of the "alters" in my perception. Their past behavior informs (G) (or whichever other determinator), which then puts into motion my perceptions as if it was them directly behind them, even as solipsism remains true. And, soon after, my experience would collapse (or inflate) again into a determinator higher in the hierarchy (all the way up to the Godhead), from which another alter would be incarnated next.

So, in such a way, my heart can beat even as I'm not aware of it, or consciously directing it, and my perception of its beating can remain in sync with the whole orchestra of my body and enviroment, etc., and even with the actions of each individual cell, if they are to be alters themselves.

Of course, besides the possibility of elevating oneself to the level of a higher determinator (which esotericism may call an angel or what not), be it now or after death, there is also the possibility, by greater human minds than mine, to turn this or a similar theory into a formal mathematical model with actual predictive power like the models of physics (maybe even a TOE), like what Bernard Carr may be trying RN, which would be really fucking cool, and points towards the possible uses of the purely conceptual tinkering.
...
The biggest remaining question that comes to my mind RN is that of the world memory, or where the logical structure of the world is hidden as we are the presently incarnated alter...
This may be where the model breaks, but I do think that the best answer is that it is, at some level, a subconscious process, colloquially speaking, like what Possum suggests. It is there, in our present awareness, but hidden by the grossness of form that is perception, sensation and human thought. "In exactly the same way we don't see the stars in the day's sky."

Well, maybe not the exact same way, though I'm open to that, of it being always in the background. But maybe it is the very gross form we experience itself, it is just that these gross forms hide within themselves a complexity that would absolutely boggle our intellects if we were to grasp it, and, even as they constantly transform, twist and turn, the key information is preserved by what could be described as some extremely complex mathematical or logical process. Just like the information in quantum physics never truly goes away, only transforms, so the memory of the world is constantly changing, taking the form of our protean human awareness, but in it remains all the information of eterntity, hidden in plain sight, ready to be unpackaged by a mind less constrained than ours.

It is a funny thought, anyway, that the whole of the mythical akashic records is always at our full disposal, right in front of our noses, but we are just too dumb or ignorant to read the print.


Me: Let's take the analogy of dreaming. I'm not sure if you have ever become lucid in a dream, but this is probably the closest we come to normally experiencing the transition from a 'dissociated state' to a more integrated one, such as we can also experience by awakening from our 'waking state' into higher cognitive experience. It's not a direct comparison, but close enough for our purposes now. The dream character, who has not become lucid, feels himself to live in a fully consistent landscape of experiences which are self-contained, oblivious to the waking self whose fears, anxieties, hopes, unresolved ideas, etc. are shaping the dream landscape. He is fully identified with his dream character. Only when the character becomes lucid within the dream does he realize the dream landscape is shaped by the waking self who belongs to a ‘higher plane’ of activity, which before was completely unsuspected.

There was zero chance of the pre-lucid dream character of modeling the waking self, no matter how mathematically formal his models became. The awakening within the dream was the only possible 'proof' of this higher self in which all the dream experiences are embedded. Indeed, it is like not being able to see the stars during the day because the light of our conceptual activity is too strong in comparison to that which emanates from the supra-conscious, at our current stage of evolution. The modeling activity leans further into that light which dims out the supra-conscious. To evolve further is to awaken to higher stages of cognitive lucidity in which the sky becomes transparent and we are able to perceive the stars in full daylight (thinking consciousness). In esotericism, there is the concept that initiates are able to perceive the Sun at midnight as well, because the Earth becomes transparent. These are literal capacities which can be developed.

I am fine with calling those capacities a matter of faith for most people, but would you call the principle of lucid dreaming a matter of faith? Is the dream character who awakens within the dream still confined to his faith in the waking self? If so, what exactly in our experience is not a matter of faith? Or, if we are defining 'faith' this broadly to encompass the penetrating insights we gain to further our spiritual evolution into higher levels of integrated Be-ing, then maybe 'faith' is exactly the same thing as true knowledge.
...
Don't sell yourself short - you have modeled this thing as far as it can go. I think that's evident from the fact that, when trying to elaborate it to encompass experiential facts like the heart beating, you are forced to regress back to linear time assumptions as part of the explanation. This is what happens with all the models, including BK's dissociative alter model. Eventually it must default back to the very assumptions it was developed to overcome, such as naive realism of space-time as we experience it. That is baked into the cake of our conceptual activity.

Now if we assume for a moment that MAL, God, the One Mind, or whatever we call it, is not really interested in us forming somewhat accurate models of its activity, but growing into that activity so we can participate in fulfilling its intents, then it makes greater sense why our conceptual activity has this ceiling which impels us to adapt and evolve. The explanation for these provisional limits is found within the intentional structure of reality itself. The limits are there to be taken seriously inwardly, rather than postulated as metaphysical properties outwardly (a la Kant). I know there is a strong antipathy for such an intentional structuring, or for submitting to it in any way, as we have discussed before re: the Luciferic rebellious impulse. That's why I say to only assume it for a moment for the sake of argument. Does this make some sense?

(he hasn't replied yet)

[Federica]

Hi Federica,

I don't know about the cultural references, I have seen the film only. I kinda live under a rock
The Mask is a bit of a silly film sure, but yes there are some parts of the video that stood out for me that I think are worthy of discussion. Thanks for asking. I wish I had done that when i first posted that, but it's better now than never.

One interesting point that stood out was how he brings up, which I would say is related to what is discussed on here, is how Gebser described Magic Consciousness as having timeless and spaceless conditions. Whereas, mental structure (the abstract intellect structures) is the complete opposite--time and space are objective in that consciousness structure. For ex. he points out how in our culture we have huge clock towers worldwide, and watches, and all sorts. Every hour, minute, and second is spatialized into discrete units. We transform time into a tangible, physical phenomenon. We get phrases like "time must not be wasted", or it "can be run out of", or possesed in greater or smaller "quantities" because of this mode of thinking. And so on. This objectivisation of time (and also space) does not occur in the Magic Consciousness structure.

I think that's an interesting point that I have wondered myself but never managed to grasp an understanding as clear as this. It's interesting how the abstract models we find today in science all do this. Time is idealised into some sort of flat or sequential dimension that we are bound by; it is abstracted into an absolute property of reality. But what is it actually?

I noticed how this abstraction happens in Bernardo Kastrup's model of "temporal dissociation". As far as I understand it, he hypothesises that we are all connected by temporal rhythms in the Mind At Large, but as dissociated alters. He claims as "alters" we are occupying different moments in time, however that time is only linear or sequential. So we sort of flicker through these sequential moments... the theory gets confusing to me, honestly, so forgive if my explanation doesn't do it justice. Anyway, I point this out because it seems like an example of the idealisation of linear time into something rigid and objective happening in idealist circles. Nothing wrong with that, but my point is it shows areas in our unconscious that have not been shone a light on, so to speak, and therefore worth a look at.

I also thought it was interesting how the video narrator points out the mask's supernatural powers (in the film) only work at night. He points out that night generally symbolises the awakening of unconscious powers. For Gebser, night represents the abolition of perspectivity. Night (the light vanishes) is a condition where objects lose their extension and dimensionality; things can be confused with one another. Whereas daylight represents consciousness in an apollonian order. I thought this is a point that is worth exploring. This happens in sleep to everyone of us. When I am in a dream, or just dreamless sleep, it feels like I am "nowhere" or "everywhere". There is no distinguishable spatial features I can discern, it is intangible. Whereas waking consciousness has the features of spatial properties and objects that I can distinguish from one another.
In other words, there seems to be a definite cognitive element to space, like with time.

I hope what I have written makes any sense. I am wondering if it is even possible to go further into what I have said. Has what I said been discussed in depth before on this forum? That's something I am wondering actually.

Thanks Luke,

What you have written certainly makes sense. I have no doubt that progress on the path of living thinking is strictly dependent on a true understanding of time, free from the rigid grid of materialistic time, and I have been grappling with this question since I came to this forum basically, soon one year ago. This topic has been discussed here at various occasions, partly in between threads. Have you read Cleric's essay The Time-Consciousness Spectrum?
If not, I think it would speak to your question significantly. In it there's for example an 'easy' entry point into the question of time: if we drop for a moment the standard conception completely, we can ask anew what the expression "now" could refer to. We know what it means in materialistic or mystic terms, but another way to feel the power of now is to see how big a portion of conscious states in our overall flow of thinking feeling willing we are able to grasp as unity, as mutually connected and mutually effecting conscious states, no matter how far apart they would be considered to be in standard time. But this is only a clumsy teaser, the full explanation of that spectrum is probably what you are looking for, to start with.

[LukeJTM]

Thanks Luke,

What you have written certainly makes sense. I have no doubt that progress on the path of living thinking is strictly dependent on a true understanding of time, free from the rigid grid of materialistic time, and I have been grappling with this question since I came to this forum basically, soon one year ago. This topic has been discussed here at various occasions, partly in between threads. Have you read Cleric's essay The Time-Consciousness Spectrum?
If not, I think it would speak to your question significantly. In it there's for example an 'easy' entry point into the question of time: if we drop for a moment the standard conception completely, we can ask anew what the expression "now" could refer to. We know what it means in materialistic or mystic terms, but another way to feel the power of now is to see how big a portion of conscious states in our overall flow of thinking feeling willing we are able to grasp as unity, as mutually connected and mutually effecting conscious states, no matter how far apart they would be considered to be in standard time. But this is only a clumsy teaser, the full explanation of that spectrum is probably what you are looking for, to start with.

I have came across that essay before. I think AshvinP posted that on Analytic Idealism on Discord in the past. But, on previous encounters of the essay I was not able to give it my full attention, so I left it. I can give it a closer look now. Thanks.

[Federica]

Thanks Luke,

What you have written certainly makes sense. I have no doubt that progress on the path of living thinking is strictly dependent on a true understanding of time, free from the rigid grid of materialistic time, and I have been grappling with this question since I came to this forum basically, soon one year ago. This topic has been discussed here at various occasions, partly in between threads. Have you read Cleric's essay The Time-Consciousness Spectrum?
If not, I think it would speak to your question significantly. In it there's for example an 'easy' entry point into the question of time: if we drop for a moment the standard conception completely, we can ask anew what the expression "now" could refer to. We know what it means in materialistic or mystic terms, but another way to feel the power of now is to see how big a portion of conscious states in our overall flow of thinking feeling willing we are able to grasp as unity, as mutually connected and mutually effecting conscious states, no matter how far apart they would be considered to be in standard time. But this is only a clumsy teaser, the full explanation of that spectrum is probably what you are looking for, to start with.

I have came across that essay before. I think AshvinP posted that on Analytic Idealism on Discord in the past. But, on previous encounters of the essay I was not able to give it my full attention, so I left it. I can give it a closer look now. Thanks.

Yes, it's the same for me. Not that I have understood it in full depth now, but the first time I read it I was clearly unable to give it my full attention.

[LukeJTM]

About the criticisms given here for linear time. It seems that even modern physics has challenged the old Newtonian time concepts e.g. Albert Einstein's theory of relativity (which I think was confirmed through many experiments). But that being said, the linear time concept does have it uses in some domains, such as getting to work on time, or arranging appointments, or some material scientific applications, etc. This excerpt below from a new age healing book points to this, and to experiential states and cultures where linear time isn't the only mode of thinking.

In 1905, Albert Einstein published his Special Theory of Relativity and shattered all the principal concepts of the Newtonian world view. According to relativity theory, space is not three-dimensional, and time is not a separate entity. Both are intimately connected and form a four-dimensional continuum, "space-time." Thus, we can never talk about space without time, and vice versa. Furthermore, there is no universal flow of time; i.e. time is not linear, nor is it absolute. Time is relative. That is, two observers will order events differently in time if they move with different velocities relative to the observed events. Therefore, all measurements involving space and time lose their absolute significance. Both time and space become merely elements to describe phenomena.

According to Einstein's theory of relativity, in certain conditions two observers can even see two events in reverse time; i.e., for observer 1, event A will occur before event B, while for observer 2, event B will occur before event A.

Time and space are so basic to our descriptions of natural phenomena and ourselves that their modification entails a modification of the whole framework that we use to describe nature and ourselves. We have not yet integrated this part of Einstein's relativity into our personal lives. For example, when we get a psychic flash of a friend in trouble, say about to fall down the stairs, we check the time and call the person as soon as we can to see if she is all right. We also want to know if such a thing happened in order to validate our insight. We call, and she has had no such experience. We conclude that it was our imagination playing tricks on us, and we invalidate our experience. This is Newtonian thinking.

We must see that we are experiencing a phenomenon that cannot be explained by Newtonian mechanics, but we are using Newtonian mechanics to validate our super-sensory experience. In other words, what we saw was a real experience. Since time is not linear, it may have already occurred. It may occur at the time we see it, and it may occur in the future. It may even be a probable occurrence that never manifests itself. Just because it didn't happen at the time we tried to correlate it, by no means proves that our insight about the possibility was wrong. If, however, within our insight about our friend, we also saw a calendar and a clock with Newtonian time on it, our insight would be such as to include that information about the space-time continuum of the event. It would be easier to validate in Newtonian physical reality.

It is time to stop invalidating experience that lies outside our Newtonian way of thinking and broaden our framework of reality. We all have had experiences of time speeding up or of losing track of time. If we become proficient in observing our moods, we can see that our personal time varies with the mood we are in and with the experiences we are having. For example, we see that time is relative when we experience a very long, frightening period just before our car crashes or barely misses another, oncoming car. This time, measured by the clock, is a few seconds; however, to us, time appears to have slowed down. Experienced time is not measurable by a clock because a clock is a Newtonian device designed to measure the linear time defined by Newtonian mechanics.

Our experience exists outside the Newtonian system. Many times, we have experienced meeting someone after several years separation; it is as if we had just seen them yesterday. In regressional therapy, many people have experienced childhood events as if they were occurring in the present. We also find our memory has ordered events in a different sequence from someone else who has also experienced those events. (Try comparing childhood memories with your siblings.)

The Native American culture, which didn't have clocks to create linear time, divided time into two aspects: the now and all other time. The Australian aborigines also have two kinds of time: the passing time and the Great Time. What occurs in the Great Time has sequence, but it cannot be dated.

Lawrence Le Shan, from his experience testing clairvoyants, has defined two times: the regular linear time and Clairvoyant Time. Clairvoyant Time is the quality of time experienced by clairvoyants when they are using their gifts. It is similar to the Great Time. What occurs has sequence but can only be seen from the point of view of being or experiencing that sequential flow. As soon as the clairvoyant actively tries to interfere with the sequence of events she is witnessing, she is immediately thrown back into linear time and will no longer be witnessing events outside the normal here-and-now framework. She must then refocus her attention to Clairvoyant Time. The rules that govern such movement from one time frame to another are not well understood. Most clairvoyants will be led to "read" a particular time frame of a person's life or past life according to the needs of the person. Some clairvoyants can simply focus on whatever time frame is requested.

Einstein's space-time continuum states that the apparent linearity of events depends on the observer. We are all too ready to accept past lives as literal physical lives that have happened in the past in a physical setting like this one. Our past lives may be happening right now in a different space-time continuum. Many of us have experienced "past lives" and feel their effects as if they were a short time ago. But we rarely speak of how our future lives are affecting the one we are experiencing right here and now. As we live our life NOW, it becomes more likely that we are rewriting our personal history, both past and future . . .
[cited from https://archive.org/details/HandsOfLigh ... 1/mode/2up]

[Federica]

About the criticisms given here for linear time. It seems that even modern physics has challenged the old Newtonian time concepts e.g. Albert Einstein's theory of relativity (which I think was confirmed through many experiments). But that being said, the linear time concept does have it uses in some domains, such as getting to work on time, or arranging appointments, or some material scientific applications, etc. This excerpt below from a new age healing book points to this, and to experiential states and cultures where linear time isn't the only mode of thinking.

In 1905, Albert Einstein published his Special Theory of Relativity and shattered all the principal concepts of the Newtonian world view. According to relativity theory, space is not three-dimensional, and time is not a separate entity. Both are intimately connected and form a four-dimensional continuum, "space-time." Thus, we can never talk about space without time, and vice versa. Furthermore, there is no universal flow of time; i.e. time is not linear, nor is it absolute. Time is relative. That is, two observers will order events differently in time if they move with different velocities relative to the observed events. Therefore, all measurements involving space and time lose their absolute significance. Both time and space become merely elements to describe phenomena.

According to Einstein's theory of relativity, in certain conditions two observers can even see two events in reverse time; i.e., for observer 1, event A will occur before event B, while for observer 2, event B will occur before event A.

Time and space are so basic to our descriptions of natural phenomena and ourselves that their modification entails a modification of the whole framework that we use to describe nature and ourselves. We have not yet integrated this part of Einstein's relativity into our personal lives. For example, when we get a psychic flash of a friend in trouble, say about to fall down the stairs, we check the time and call the person as soon as we can to see if she is all right. We also want to know if such a thing happened in order to validate our insight. We call, and she has had no such experience. We conclude that it was our imagination playing tricks on us, and we invalidate our experience. This is Newtonian thinking.

We must see that we are experiencing a phenomenon that cannot be explained by Newtonian mechanics, but we are using Newtonian mechanics to validate our super-sensory experience. In other words, what we saw was a real experience. Since time is not linear, it may have already occurred. It may occur at the time we see it, and it may occur in the future. It may even be a probable occurrence that never manifests itself. Just because it didn't happen at the time we tried to correlate it, by no means proves that our insight about the possibility was wrong. If, however, within our insight about our friend, we also saw a calendar and a clock with Newtonian time on it, our insight would be such as to include that information about the space-time continuum of the event. It would be easier to validate in Newtonian physical reality.

It is time to stop invalidating experience that lies outside our Newtonian way of thinking and broaden our framework of reality. We all have had experiences of time speeding up or of losing track of time. If we become proficient in observing our moods, we can see that our personal time varies with the mood we are in and with the experiences we are having. For example, we see that time is relative when we experience a very long, frightening period just before our car crashes or barely misses another, oncoming car. This time, measured by the clock, is a few seconds; however, to us, time appears to have slowed down. Experienced time is not measurable by a clock because a clock is a Newtonian device designed to measure the linear time defined by Newtonian mechanics.

Our experience exists outside the Newtonian system. Many times, we have experienced meeting someone after several years separation; it is as if we had just seen them yesterday. In regressional therapy, many people have experienced childhood events as if they were occurring in the present. We also find our memory has ordered events in a different sequence from someone else who has also experienced those events. (Try comparing childhood memories with your siblings.)

The Native American culture, which didn't have clocks to create linear time, divided time into two aspects: the now and all other time. The Australian aborigines also have two kinds of time: the passing time and the Great Time. What occurs in the Great Time has sequence, but it cannot be dated.

Lawrence Le Shan, from his experience testing clairvoyants, has defined two times: the regular linear time and Clairvoyant Time. Clairvoyant Time is the quality of time experienced by clairvoyants when they are using their gifts. It is similar to the Great Time. What occurs has sequence but can only be seen from the point of view of being or experiencing that sequential flow. As soon as the clairvoyant actively tries to interfere with the sequence of events she is witnessing, she is immediately thrown back into linear time and will no longer be witnessing events outside the normal here-and-now framework. She must then refocus her attention to Clairvoyant Time. The rules that govern such movement from one time frame to another are not well understood. Most clairvoyants will be led to "read" a particular time frame of a person's life or past life according to the needs of the person. Some clairvoyants can simply focus on whatever time frame is requested.

Einstein's space-time continuum states that the apparent linearity of events depends on the observer. We are all too ready to accept past lives as literal physical lives that have happened in the past in a physical setting like this one. Our past lives may be happening right now in a different space-time continuum. Many of us have experienced "past lives" and feel their effects as if they were a short time ago. But we rarely speak of how our future lives are affecting the one we are experiencing right here and now. As we live our life NOW, it becomes more likely that we are rewriting our personal history, both past and future . . .
[cited from https://archive.org/details/HandsOfLigh ... 1/mode/2up]

Luke, I think the nature of time that emerges from an anthroposophical, or more generally an esoteric, approach to reality is different from the one appearing to lie in the background of the quoted text.

In the quoted text it is suggested that time can be experienced as space-time, as non-linear, subjective, variable in its passing, depending on various factors. However, the frame of reference, the grid against which the concept of time itself is apprehended seems to be the same as that of linear time. It’s as if they are saying: time is not representable as a straight line on a Cartesian plane, it’s more like a curve, interacting with various parameters that can influence the shape of the curve, so things can happen earlier or later than expected according to a linear model, and two events can even intersect, and the linear flow of time can be ‘messed up’. But this is all still happening on the same Cartesian plane, and still in reference and contrast to linear time. There is no lifting the eyes from the standard ground idea of what the nature of time is. There is no orthogonal intuition to break the pattern of intellectual looking at it "from the side".

Basically what they are really saying is: true, experienced time is not a linear phenomenon, it’s more like a certain function of linear time. It says: we might know (as in “Einstein's time”) or not know (as in “clairvoyant time”) the exact parameters of the function (“it cannot be dated”) but it’s still sequential. In other words, the flow of time is imagined as curved, not linear, but time is still seen as an observable outer phenomenon that can be represented and understood as sequential. This means that time is still seen as space. It’s seen as a repetition of comparable instances, that our intellect only can imagine “out there” as deployed in (mental) space, so that the character of repetition/sequence can be appreciated.

In short, we are still within a materialistic, intellectual appreciation of time that little has to do with clairvoyance (at least this is my impression based on the quoted text, I have not read further at the link). As a brief attempt to recall what’s been brilliantly illustrated in other threads here, like the one containing the Time-Consciousness Spectrum - From an esoteric perspective, time is experienced as inscribed within the quality and maturity of our spiritual activity itself. It is the name and measure of our level of awakening to, and conscious partaking in, spiritual reality at large, in interplay with the becoming of everything/everyone else. Therefore, the experience of expansion in meaning and understanding could be called time integration (we bring within consciousness deeper and deeper experience-based, participative knowledge of spiritual reality).