Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
LukeJTM
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

Post by LukeJTM »

AshvinP wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 1:06 pm
Luke,
Indeed that question has been discussed extensively here, since many idealists are partial to Eastern mystical practice. At the most fundamental level, the question revolves around our relationship with the central "I"-being. The Christian esoteric stream, as indicated in the illustration, recognizes that "I"-being as the Christ (it's interesting to notice all the 'I AM' sayings in the Gospels). Our essential "I" is that thread which weaves through all the different realms, planes, substances, bodies, etc. and links the formless Divine to the formed creation, at all scales-levels. It is what always mediates between the poles of existence. Esoteric science recognizes that it is the "I" which, not only allows us to become aware of our spiritual existence through our lower vehicles, but also builds up those lower vehicles and participates in either their growth or decay all throughout life. So we aren't speaking of the "I" in the abstract philosophical terms of the modern age, but as a living spiritual force which animates all willing-feeling-thinking-perception, and is implicit in all physical and organic structures of the World. Even the mineral, plant, and animal kingdoms can be traced to their respective "I"-centers (often referred to as 'group-souls' or 'group-ego'). 
Thanks. But, I have to ask, what even is the "I" in abstract philosophy? There's too many confusing or even bizarre ideas going on in philosophy today, for me personally. As far as I can tell from just the facts of experience, "I" is just a given of experience. We all speak of ourselves as "I am" or "I". But it seems that ordinarily we humans identify the "I" with things like personality, or the physical body, or conditioned beliefs from other people, or society, and so on.
So, are you suggesting that the "I"-being is, essentially, the "I am" presence (going beyond the ordinary personality)? I have felt a sense of "I am" manifest here and there but not so consistently, which is because I am still figuring out how to make spiritual connection more fully. My understanding so far is that "I AM" can be brought into daily experience more gradually through keeping up with spiritual growth. Is that accurate?
The biggest practical difference I see between this and the standard 'nondual' practice is that this working through the I-consciousness should manifest with the continual transformation of life itself, in and through our daily spiritual activity. All our dark instinctual and habitual tendencies are truthfully confronted, gradually enlightened, and effortfully attuned to the Divine Will. We are continually working to harmonize our intents with those of our higher Self, which serves the Cosmic organism. What Christ accomplished for humanity is not only limited to our personal sphere of spiritual capacity and experience, but extends to the gradual spiritualization of the Earth organism as a whole, in definite and concrete stages. 
Wasn't the purification of the shadow elements of ourselves and attuning to Divine Will done in earlier epochs? I'm still just somewhat unsure about how what we can do now differs from older time periods and their traditions (which still happen today).

It is true that people today are still doing things like treating thinking as some obstacle preventing enlightenment. There are some gurus still teaching this old way of working with the inner world. I suppose that attitude may be useful for today if someone is just stuck in abstraction though. But I'm a bit confused because I see in some of the older traditions (which could be Hinduism, or Buddhism, or something like that), people had to purify themselves through spiritual practice too. But, I recall you did explain a bit about this on Discord before, people needed a guru or master to guide them back then, and that is totally correct because that is simply in the historical facts available. But now we don't need to rely that on as much because cognition is more lucid now, I think.

Anway, what I am unsure is where this trying to transcend Thinking into mystical states comes from. Clearly, for today's human, it can come from laziness, as you point out, but what about in older days where abstract and intellect was not so developed/available to humans? Do you have understanding in that context? Why is this way of practicing still happening today when we can understand more lucidly? Is it because all the different cultures of the world are flowing in different rhythms of evolution, or something to do with that? I am just trying to understand the bigger picture.
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Federica
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

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LukeJTM wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:37 pm I'm still just somewhat unsure about how what we can do now differs from older time periods and their traditions
Luke, in the meantime that you get a response, I have recently listened to the following reading, about the start of the New age of Michael in the 1870s, and what different qualities of consciousness this new impulse has brought to humanity. The first 5 minutes already provide a good overview (although the focus is not on comparison with old traditions):

This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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AshvinP
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

Post by AshvinP »

LukeJTM wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:37 pm
AshvinP wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 1:06 pm
Luke,
Indeed that question has been discussed extensively here, since many idealists are partial to Eastern mystical practice. At the most fundamental level, the question revolves around our relationship with the central "I"-being. The Christian esoteric stream, as indicated in the illustration, recognizes that "I"-being as the Christ (it's interesting to notice all the 'I AM' sayings in the Gospels). Our essential "I" is that thread which weaves through all the different realms, planes, substances, bodies, etc. and links the formless Divine to the formed creation, at all scales-levels. It is what always mediates between the poles of existence. Esoteric science recognizes that it is the "I" which, not only allows us to become aware of our spiritual existence through our lower vehicles, but also builds up those lower vehicles and participates in either their growth or decay all throughout life. So we aren't speaking of the "I" in the abstract philosophical terms of the modern age, but as a living spiritual force which animates all willing-feeling-thinking-perception, and is implicit in all physical and organic structures of the World. Even the mineral, plant, and animal kingdoms can be traced to their respective "I"-centers (often referred to as 'group-souls' or 'group-ego'). 
Thanks. But, I have to ask, what even is the "I" in abstract philosophy? There's too many confusing or even bizarre ideas going on in philosophy today, for me personally. As far as I can tell from just the facts of experience, "I" is just a given of experience. We all speak of ourselves as "I am" or "I". But it seems that ordinarily we humans identify the "I" with things like personality, or the physical body, or conditioned beliefs from other people, or society, and so on.
So, are you suggesting that the "I"-being is, essentially, the "I am" presence (going beyond the ordinary personality)? I have felt a sense of "I am" manifest here and there but not so consistently, which is because I am still figuring out how to make spiritual connection more fully. My understanding so far is that "I AM" can be brought into daily experience more gradually through keeping up with spiritual growth. Is that accurate?

Luke,

Yes, that is accurate. Actually Cleric just wrote a comment on the other thread which addresses the intuition of 'I AM' and how it expansd to encompass the World through the development of higher cognition. I will quote the relevant portion below.

Cleric wrote:So Intuition shouldn't be thought of as something which gives us consciousness only of the higher worlds. It is really the knowing essence of our existence. Probably the closest concept for those familiar with nondual philosophies would be 'awareness'. To be aware implies certain intuitive knowing. Of course, knowing not in conceptual sense. Maybe we can compare this with a kind of intuitive orientation. For example when you look at your room you don't have to think of anything in particular yet you feel 'oriented', you simply know what you're experiencing, it 'makes sense', you are not lost or confused about it.

As the quote above goes, this kind of knowing, for the normal man of today, is experienced only in respect to our "I". The "I" is like the coherent intuition which makes sense of the stream of existence.

Today we understand the world as far as everything that we experience fits in the intuition of our "I"-existence. After all, we can't really speak of understanding of anything outside our experience. Even if we imagine that we understand the universe from a bird eye view, all of this is still the very human philosophical experience of our own "I".

We speak of Intuitive cognition when we know the true nature of the world in the same way we know our "I".

Luke wrote:
The biggest practical difference I see between this and the standard 'nondual' practice is that this working through the I-consciousness should manifest with the continual transformation of life itself, in and through our daily spiritual activity. All our dark instinctual and habitual tendencies are truthfully confronted, gradually enlightened, and effortfully attuned to the Divine Will. We are continually working to harmonize our intents with those of our higher Self, which serves the Cosmic organism. What Christ accomplished for humanity is not only limited to our personal sphere of spiritual capacity and experience, but extends to the gradual spiritualization of the Earth organism as a whole, in definite and concrete stages. 
Wasn't the purification of the shadow elements of ourselves and attuning to Divine Will done in earlier epochs? I'm still just somewhat unsure about how what we can do now differs from older time periods and their traditions (which still happen today).

It is true that people today are still doing things like treating thinking as some obstacle preventing enlightenment. There are some gurus still teaching this old way of working with the inner world. I suppose that attitude may be useful for today if someone is just stuck in abstraction though. But I'm a bit confused because I see in some of the older traditions (which could be Hinduism, or Buddhism, or something like that), people had to purify themselves through spiritual practice too. But, I recall you did explain a bit about this on Discord before, people needed a guru or master to guide them back then, and that is totally correct because that is simply in the historical facts available. But now we don't need to rely that on as much because cognition is more lucid now, I think.

In very ancient times, we could say the nascent will was still so connected to the spirit worlds, via direct experience, that purification was not even needed. In fact, what was needed was a greater attachment to and interest in the Earthly sphere so that the individual will could fully incarnate. That is imaged in various mythologies as well, such as the Bhagavad Gita or the myth of Prometheus. As far as I know, the practice of purifying the will of mere Earthly attachments took root in ancient Greece, which is reflected in Aristotle's concept of catharsis through the dramatic arts. The ancient Hindu and Buddhist practices were less of a purification of the will, in contrast, and more of complete detachment from it. But for all these ancient cultures, the personal will was not yet fully incarnate. Every act of will was experienced as an expression of either the Gods themselves, or the various collective human groupings in which people were situated. In that sense, the possibility of individual freedom of will was lacking. 

That is the real issue. When we try to translate those ancient practices to our modern context in a 1:1 relationship, we are simply ignoring the evolution of spiritual activity which has taken place. The detaching practice of the ancient East, in the modern evolutionary context, is the equivalent of washing our hands of everything we have embedded into the World through all of our previous incarnations. We are expressing a desire to save ourselves and leave the rest of the World behind to clean up our mess. And that would be somewhat reasonable (albeit amoral) if we had not received something of profound importance at the 'turning point in time', i.e. the Christ events.  At that time, the "I" of God himself united with the physical body of man and the physical Earth, providing the impulse necessary for us to gradually spiritualize those bodies by compensating for all our Karma over the course of the ages to come, thereby redeeming the entire Earth evolution (including all the lower kingdoms). 

Related to that, I think it is common for people to mistake 'higher cognition' and 'spiritual science' for something cold and detached, because that is the only sort of thinking we are used to in the modern era. Then they wonder why it is so different from the nondual wisdom which has been around for ages. If it was merely a path to mystical visions of spiritual beings, such as were also available in the past, and expanded head-knowledge about Cosmic evolution, then it would simply lack the force to inspire humanity to the new redemptive heights necessary for our continued evolution. But it's much more than that. At its core, it is preparation for us to become receptive to the ongoing sacrificial deeds of the Christ-being who makes it possible for humanity to take hold of its destiny and redeem the Earth's evolution in complete freedom, through its fully conscious "I"-activity. In fact, today (ascension day) is a great time to remember that. 

Steiner wrote:The sun was the dwelling place of the Christ up to the time of the Mystery of Golgotha. The ether body of man in that it strives towards the sun strives therefore towards the Christ. Now, call up before you the picture of the Ascension: Before the eyes of the Disciples the Christ rises heavenwards. This means that before the eyes of the Disciples' souls was conjured forth the vision of how the etheric nature of mankind in its upward striving unites itself with the power, with the Impulse of Christ. Therefore, the Disciples saw how at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha man was faced with the danger of seeing his ether body attracted cloud-wards — towards the sun, but also how the Christ held that which then strove heavenwards, together. This picture has to be understood aright. It is really a warning. The Christ was already united with the earth, but He belongs to those forces in man which actually strive towards the sun, which desire for ever to leave the earth. It is the Christ Who holds men firmly to the earth.

The Christ came down from spiritual heights, and in the man Jesus of Nazareth united Himself with humanity; He passed through the Mystery of Golgotha, and has associated His evolution with the evolution of the earth. It was a deed which was done for the whole of humanity. Try to grasp this fact correctly: — The Mystery of Golgotha was accomplished for humanity. Clairvoyant vision must ever behold how the etheric forces of humanity that constantly seek to separate from the earth are united with the Christ; and how the Christ is able to hold them back for earthly evolution. This is of great importance to humanity.
Luke wrote:Anway, what I am unsure is where this trying to transcend Thinking into mystical states comes from. Clearly, for today's human, it can come from laziness, as you point out, but what about in older days where abstract and intellect was not so developed/available to humans? Do you have understanding in that context? Why is this way of practicing still happening today when we can understand more lucidly? Is it because all the different cultures of the world are flowing in different rhythms of evolution, or something to do with that? I am just trying to understand the bigger picture.

That is a great observation. We often remark here how our spatial conciousness gives us the capacity to perceive many varied evolving Time-rhythms simultaneously, for ex. the kingdoms of Nature. That also applies to the various spheres of culture, which are already more temporal than spatial. We can only understand why these groupings exist in light of the differentiated time-rhythmic streams of evolution. These streams are the outer expression of concrete spiritual beings and their activity, which serve definite intents in the progression (or, in some cases, attempted retrogression) of Earth's evolution, which as we saw above, is bound up completely with humanity's evolution.

Why certain streams have unlawfully infilitrated our modern context in a maladaptive way is a complex question. But, at a broad level, we can certainly say it has to do with our moral failings. Nowhere is that more evident in our addiction to abstract thinking, which is exactly what maintains when the only spiritual avenues pursued are out of sync with our modern constitution. The ancients presented their crops and animals to the divine Universe to show their gratitude for what the latter inspired and imagined through them. They gave up possessions of tremendous value as a display of their thanksgiving. Later, they created epics such as the Iliad and the Odyssey from the inspirations of their Muse. Even as late as the Middle Ages, thinking was primarily a means of professing gratitude and devotion towards the created order, as it spent hours upon hours in quiet contemplation of the latter. Now, modern humans can only be troubled to present the Universe with speculative and repetitive opinions, models, and theories after consuming the latter’s inspirations. Not only has the practice of mere outward sacrifices continued, but the sacrifices have drastically lowered in value. They are generated about as fast as our thoughts can race and our fingers can type. More recently, with the arrival of Chat GPT, even that minimal effort has started evaporating. Most people who work in a business setting would have already received numerous solicitations on how the GPT algorithm can make their jobs ‘easier’, which of course fail to mention how it can also make their thinking souls devoid of life.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

Post by Anthony66 »

AshvinP wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 3:57 pm Ever since the Christ Event there has always been a more concealed spiritual stream that sought to penetrate the deeper consequences of that event. The more external aspect (life and deeds of Jesus) became the widespread exoteric Christianity.
This concealed stream was otherwise known as the heretical stream by the early church fathers and the latter church. If indeed there was a more esoteric aspect of the teaching of Christ and his apostles, why do we see such a move to stamp out such a movement by those who were the direct descendants of the apostles? The Gnostics were a diverse bunch with all sorts of weird ideas but I would understand that part of what they explored was indeed what is described here as esoteric Christianity. And yet these folk were fiercely opposed by the early church.
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

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Anthony66 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:30 pm
AshvinP wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 3:57 pm Ever since the Christ Event there has always been a more concealed spiritual stream that sought to penetrate the deeper consequences of that event. The more external aspect (life and deeds of Jesus) became the widespread exoteric Christianity.
This concealed stream was otherwise known as the heretical stream by the early church fathers and the latter church. If indeed there was a more esoteric aspect of the teaching of Christ and his apostles, why do we see such a move to stamp out such a movement by those who were the direct descendants of the apostles? The Gnostics were a diverse bunch with all sorts of weird ideas but I would understand that part of what they explored was indeed what is described here as esoteric Christianity. And yet these folk were fiercely opposed by the early church.
Steiner does a detailed review of the evolution of Christianity, the early church Fathers, and how the ancient Mysteries that were surviving after the Christ events were suppressed and why. GA 175 Lecture VIII - Building stones for an understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha.
Now as you know, there occurred at this time a kind of fusion between evolving Christianity and the Roman empire. I have already described how this arose and how, because of this fusion, the Church was anxious to suppress, as far as possible, those rites I have just described to you, to efface all traces of the past and to conceal from posterity all knowledge of the Mystery practices which over the centuries had sought to bring man, whether in the body or outside the body, in touch with those spiritual forces which help him to develop his ego consciousness. If we wish to make a more detailed study of the evolution of Christianity we must consider not only the development of dogma, but especially the development of ancient cults from certain points of view; this is of far greater importance than the evolution of dogma. For dogmas are a source of controversy and like the phoenix they rise again from their own ashes. However much we may imagine they have been eradicated, there is always some crank who comes along and revives the old prejudices. Cults are far easier to eradicate. And these ancient cults which, in a certain sense, were the external signs and symbols of Mystery practices were suppressed, so that it would be impossible to discover from the survival of ancient rites the methods by which man sought to come in touch with divine-spiritual forces.

In order to get to the bottom of the matter we must take a look at the chief sacrament of the Church of Rome, the sacrifice of the Mass. What is the inner significance of the Catholic Mass? In reality, the Mass and all that is related to it, is a continuation and development of the Mithras Mysteries, blended to some extent with the Eleusinian Mysteries.
(...)
If we were to embark upon a serious study of how men such as Clement of Alexandria, his pupil Origen, Tertullian and even Irenaeus (note 3), to say nothing of the still earlier Fathers, derive in part from the pagan principle of initiation and came to Christianity in their own way, if we were to enter into the minds of these great souls, we should find that their concepts and ideas were informed by an inner vitality peculiar to them alone, that an entirely different spirit dwelt in them from that which was later reflected in the Church. If we wish to understand the Mystery of Golgotha we must catch something of the spirit of these early Fathers.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

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Anthony66 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:30 pm
AshvinP wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 3:57 pm Ever since the Christ Event there has always been a more concealed spiritual stream that sought to penetrate the deeper consequences of that event. The more external aspect (life and deeds of Jesus) became the widespread exoteric Christianity.
This concealed stream was otherwise known as the heretical stream by the early church fathers and the latter church. If indeed there was a more esoteric aspect of the teaching of Christ and his apostles, why do we see such a move to stamp out such a movement by those who were the direct descendants of the apostles? The Gnostics were a diverse bunch with all sorts of weird ideas but I would understand that part of what they explored was indeed what is described here as esoteric Christianity. And yet these folk were fiercely opposed by the early church.

Well, the answer to that question would also be a matter of investigating esoteric history and science. For instance, we would need to look into the ongoing influences of the adversaries of the Spirit which are also prophetically referenced in the Bible (OT/NT) and Apocalypse. These are influences which work mostly subconsciously in the feeling and thinking life of humanity, which also influence the will to some extent. We won't ever penetrate to these influences by studying exoteric history while assuming everyone involved was acting in full consciousness, with rational reasons for their decisions. Most of them were unwitting puppets in the spiritual battle "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

So the main point is that we simply won't find the answers within the Maya of horizontal planar concepts of history. Everything we come up with will be an ex-post rationalization of that history which fits whatever narrative we prefer to establish. The real answers are found by looking within ourselves, through self-knowledge, because those influences are still alive and kicking in each and every one of us today. There is a part of us which fiercely opposes the concealed stream of our destiny on a daily basis, i.e. the higher purposes of spiritual beings who only desire for us to realize our full spiritual potential as humans, as 'spirits of love'. Once we locate these tendencies within ourselves, we will easily recognize them in the whole course of human cultural history from Atlantean times to present day.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

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LukeJTM wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:37 pm It is true that people today are still doing things like treating thinking as some obstacle preventing enlightenment. There are some gurus still teaching this old way of working with the inner world. I suppose that attitude may be useful for today if someone is just stuck in abstraction though. But I'm a bit confused because I see in some of the older traditions (which could be Hinduism, or Buddhism, or something like that), people had to purify themselves through spiritual practice too.

I’m now reading something by Anthroposophist Peter Tradowsky that speaks to what Ashvin said, that “the ancient Hindu and Buddhist practices were less of a purification of the will, and more of complete detachment from it." Tradowsky speaks of the “mood of tragedy” emerging from “the sublime teachings of the Buddha”, and from pre-Christian cultures in general.

He was describing how humans initially appeared on Earth in archetypal form, with an invisible physical body that was a “pure mirror of the Cosmos” as Steiner says in Occult Science. At that early earthly stage, human beings did not know decay and death. But later, to allow for the progressive development of their individual I - instilled in them by the Spirits of Form in seed form - humans had to fall into the clutches of Lucifer first - through whom they acquired the spiritual faculty of independent control of mental images, thereby also becoming exposed to instincts and passions - and then of Ahriman - through whom they absorbed the illusion of the material world, turning themselves more and more towards earthly impressions. As a consequence, humans became subject to decay, illness, and death, in their now visible and dense physical body, heavily entangled with matter.

These events - says Tradowsky - pushed pre-Christian cultures in a mood of tragedy and desperation, that can be perceived in the teachings of Buddha, in a sort of resignation towards suffering and the Earth. So by those teachings, Earthly reality had to be left completely behind, for salvation. Because of the unbearable awareness of the heavy entanglement with Earth, and the inadequacy of human capabilities to face such a descent into matter and lower desires, humanity would have sunk even more in complete involution and desperation, had the idea of a coming Savior not arisen. That coming was prefigured in Israel by Moses.

This shows that the people of those times had no other choice than collectively orient themselves towards 'extreme' mystic practices, as an inevitable reaction to the depth of Ahrimanic impulses, steering strongly towards matter and instincts. But with all that the Christ impulse has later gifted humanity, such extreme mysticism, or nondualism - that treats thinking as an obstacle, and also wants to bypass Earthly existence completely - throws a wrench in the works of evolution, when practiced today.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

Post by Anthony66 »

Federica wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:51 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:30 pm
AshvinP wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 3:57 pm Ever since the Christ Event there has always been a more concealed spiritual stream that sought to penetrate the deeper consequences of that event. The more external aspect (life and deeds of Jesus) became the widespread exoteric Christianity.
This concealed stream was otherwise known as the heretical stream by the early church fathers and the latter church. If indeed there was a more esoteric aspect of the teaching of Christ and his apostles, why do we see such a move to stamp out such a movement by those who were the direct descendants of the apostles? The Gnostics were a diverse bunch with all sorts of weird ideas but I would understand that part of what they explored was indeed what is described here as esoteric Christianity. And yet these folk were fiercely opposed by the early church.
Steiner does a detailed review of the evolution of Christianity, the early church Fathers, and how the ancient Mysteries that were surviving after the Christ events were suppressed and why. GA 175 Lecture VIII - Building stones for an understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha.
Now as you know, there occurred at this time a kind of fusion between evolving Christianity and the Roman empire. I have already described how this arose and how, because of this fusion, the Church was anxious to suppress, as far as possible, those rites I have just described to you, to efface all traces of the past and to conceal from posterity all knowledge of the Mystery practices which over the centuries had sought to bring man, whether in the body or outside the body, in touch with those spiritual forces which help him to develop his ego consciousness. If we wish to make a more detailed study of the evolution of Christianity we must consider not only the development of dogma, but especially the development of ancient cults from certain points of view; this is of far greater importance than the evolution of dogma. For dogmas are a source of controversy and like the phoenix they rise again from their own ashes. However much we may imagine they have been eradicated, there is always some crank who comes along and revives the old prejudices. Cults are far easier to eradicate. And these ancient cults which, in a certain sense, were the external signs and symbols of Mystery practices were suppressed, so that it would be impossible to discover from the survival of ancient rites the methods by which man sought to come in touch with divine-spiritual forces.

In order to get to the bottom of the matter we must take a look at the chief sacrament of the Church of Rome, the sacrifice of the Mass. What is the inner significance of the Catholic Mass? In reality, the Mass and all that is related to it, is a continuation and development of the Mithras Mysteries, blended to some extent with the Eleusinian Mysteries.
(...)
If we were to embark upon a serious study of how men such as Clement of Alexandria, his pupil Origen, Tertullian and even Irenaeus (note 3), to say nothing of the still earlier Fathers, derive in part from the pagan principle of initiation and came to Christianity in their own way, if we were to enter into the minds of these great souls, we should find that their concepts and ideas were informed by an inner vitality peculiar to them alone, that an entirely different spirit dwelt in them from that which was later reflected in the Church. If we wish to understand the Mystery of Golgotha we must catch something of the spirit of these early Fathers.
Federica,

Thanks for that link, it is very helpful. I'm struck by the following passage:
In tracing the development of Christianity during the early centuries of our era we must bear in mind that it is difficult to comprehend this development unless we reinforce a purely historical enquiry with the findings of Spiritual Science. If we accept, purely hypothetically for the moment, the facts of spiritual-scientific investigation into this period, then a very remarkable picture unfolds before us. As we review this development during the early centuries we realize in effect that the Mystery of Golgotha has been fulfilled not only once — as an isolated event on Golgotha — but, in a figurative sense, a second time on the mighty panorama of history. When we study this period truly remarkable things are disclosed.
The first issue which started to shake my evangelical Christianity 20 years ago was the quest for the "true church" and the "true Christianity". I expended countless hours studying church history and trying to weave the various threads together. It turned out to be a fools errand. This led me to the field of higher critical scholarship and an undermining of contents of scripture. I've never recovered.
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

Post by Federica »

Anthony66 wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:31 pm
Federica wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:51 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:30 pm
This concealed stream was otherwise known as the heretical stream by the early church fathers and the latter church. If indeed there was a more esoteric aspect of the teaching of Christ and his apostles, why do we see such a move to stamp out such a movement by those who were the direct descendants of the apostles? The Gnostics were a diverse bunch with all sorts of weird ideas but I would understand that part of what they explored was indeed what is described here as esoteric Christianity. And yet these folk were fiercely opposed by the early church.
Steiner does a detailed review of the evolution of Christianity, the early church Fathers, and how the ancient Mysteries that were surviving after the Christ events were suppressed and why. GA 175 Lecture VIII - Building stones for an understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha.
Now as you know, there occurred at this time a kind of fusion between evolving Christianity and the Roman empire. I have already described how this arose and how, because of this fusion, the Church was anxious to suppress, as far as possible, those rites I have just described to you, to efface all traces of the past and to conceal from posterity all knowledge of the Mystery practices which over the centuries had sought to bring man, whether in the body or outside the body, in touch with those spiritual forces which help him to develop his ego consciousness. If we wish to make a more detailed study of the evolution of Christianity we must consider not only the development of dogma, but especially the development of ancient cults from certain points of view; this is of far greater importance than the evolution of dogma. For dogmas are a source of controversy and like the phoenix they rise again from their own ashes. However much we may imagine they have been eradicated, there is always some crank who comes along and revives the old prejudices. Cults are far easier to eradicate. And these ancient cults which, in a certain sense, were the external signs and symbols of Mystery practices were suppressed, so that it would be impossible to discover from the survival of ancient rites the methods by which man sought to come in touch with divine-spiritual forces.

In order to get to the bottom of the matter we must take a look at the chief sacrament of the Church of Rome, the sacrifice of the Mass. What is the inner significance of the Catholic Mass? In reality, the Mass and all that is related to it, is a continuation and development of the Mithras Mysteries, blended to some extent with the Eleusinian Mysteries.
(...)
If we were to embark upon a serious study of how men such as Clement of Alexandria, his pupil Origen, Tertullian and even Irenaeus (note 3), to say nothing of the still earlier Fathers, derive in part from the pagan principle of initiation and came to Christianity in their own way, if we were to enter into the minds of these great souls, we should find that their concepts and ideas were informed by an inner vitality peculiar to them alone, that an entirely different spirit dwelt in them from that which was later reflected in the Church. If we wish to understand the Mystery of Golgotha we must catch something of the spirit of these early Fathers.
Federica,

Thanks for that link, it is very helpful. I'm struck by the following passage:
In tracing the development of Christianity during the early centuries of our era we must bear in mind that it is difficult to comprehend this development unless we reinforce a purely historical enquiry with the findings of Spiritual Science. If we accept, purely hypothetically for the moment, the facts of spiritual-scientific investigation into this period, then a very remarkable picture unfolds before us. As we review this development during the early centuries we realize in effect that the Mystery of Golgotha has been fulfilled not only once — as an isolated event on Golgotha — but, in a figurative sense, a second time on the mighty panorama of history. When we study this period truly remarkable things are disclosed.
The first issue which started to shake my evangelical Christianity 20 years ago was the quest for the "true church" and the "true Christianity". I expended countless hours studying church history and trying to weave the various threads together. It turned out to be a fools errand. This led me to the field of higher critical scholarship and an undermining of contents of scripture. I've never recovered.

Anthony,

Maybe you were meant to find in spiritual science the means to connect those threads that you have been attempting to weave together for so long through exoteric historical reconstruction at first...
Steiner surely provides many more insights useful to reconstruct a comprehensive, but detailed, picture of the evolution and meaning of Christianity. I haven't read it - and it's just a tentative idea - but have you noticed his book Christianity as a Mystical Fact?
Other than that, I am afraid I can't say much more. Really, I know nothing about Christianity. I am sure Ashvin will be able to help you insightfully with your quest.
This is the goal towards which the sixth age of humanity will strive: the popularization of occult truth on a wide scale. That's the mission of this age and the society that unites spiritually has the task of bringing this occult truth to life everywhere and applying it directly. That's exactly what our age is missing.
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AshvinP
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Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)

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Anthony66 wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 2:31 pm
Federica wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:51 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 2:30 pm
This concealed stream was otherwise known as the heretical stream by the early church fathers and the latter church. If indeed there was a more esoteric aspect of the teaching of Christ and his apostles, why do we see such a move to stamp out such a movement by those who were the direct descendants of the apostles? The Gnostics were a diverse bunch with all sorts of weird ideas but I would understand that part of what they explored was indeed what is described here as esoteric Christianity. And yet these folk were fiercely opposed by the early church.
Steiner does a detailed review of the evolution of Christianity, the early church Fathers, and how the ancient Mysteries that were surviving after the Christ events were suppressed and why. GA 175 Lecture VIII - Building stones for an understanding of the Mystery of Golgotha.
Now as you know, there occurred at this time a kind of fusion between evolving Christianity and the Roman empire. I have already described how this arose and how, because of this fusion, the Church was anxious to suppress, as far as possible, those rites I have just described to you, to efface all traces of the past and to conceal from posterity all knowledge of the Mystery practices which over the centuries had sought to bring man, whether in the body or outside the body, in touch with those spiritual forces which help him to develop his ego consciousness. If we wish to make a more detailed study of the evolution of Christianity we must consider not only the development of dogma, but especially the development of ancient cults from certain points of view; this is of far greater importance than the evolution of dogma. For dogmas are a source of controversy and like the phoenix they rise again from their own ashes. However much we may imagine they have been eradicated, there is always some crank who comes along and revives the old prejudices. Cults are far easier to eradicate. And these ancient cults which, in a certain sense, were the external signs and symbols of Mystery practices were suppressed, so that it would be impossible to discover from the survival of ancient rites the methods by which man sought to come in touch with divine-spiritual forces.

In order to get to the bottom of the matter we must take a look at the chief sacrament of the Church of Rome, the sacrifice of the Mass. What is the inner significance of the Catholic Mass? In reality, the Mass and all that is related to it, is a continuation and development of the Mithras Mysteries, blended to some extent with the Eleusinian Mysteries.
(...)
If we were to embark upon a serious study of how men such as Clement of Alexandria, his pupil Origen, Tertullian and even Irenaeus (note 3), to say nothing of the still earlier Fathers, derive in part from the pagan principle of initiation and came to Christianity in their own way, if we were to enter into the minds of these great souls, we should find that their concepts and ideas were informed by an inner vitality peculiar to them alone, that an entirely different spirit dwelt in them from that which was later reflected in the Church. If we wish to understand the Mystery of Golgotha we must catch something of the spirit of these early Fathers.
Federica,

Thanks for that link, it is very helpful. I'm struck by the following passage:
In tracing the development of Christianity during the early centuries of our era we must bear in mind that it is difficult to comprehend this development unless we reinforce a purely historical enquiry with the findings of Spiritual Science. If we accept, purely hypothetically for the moment, the facts of spiritual-scientific investigation into this period, then a very remarkable picture unfolds before us. As we review this development during the early centuries we realize in effect that the Mystery of Golgotha has been fulfilled not only once — as an isolated event on Golgotha — but, in a figurative sense, a second time on the mighty panorama of history. When we study this period truly remarkable things are disclosed.
The first issue which started to shake my evangelical Christianity 20 years ago was the quest for the "true church" and the "true Christianity". I expended countless hours studying church history and trying to weave the various threads together. It turned out to be a fools errand. This led me to the field of higher critical scholarship and an undermining of contents of scripture. I've never recovered.

It is important to differentiate between the content of scripture and the dogma overlaid on top of that content. Just as we can differentiate between the fact of an interaction between brain activity and conscious experience, and the dogmatic theory that conscious experience must be produced by the brain activity.

Here is a simple example - that of the 'virgin birth'. The evangelicals dogmatically hold that the Bible teaches Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and Joseph had nothing to do with conception of the Jesus child. Yet when we look at the actual content of the Gospels, particularly Luke and Matthew, we find geanologies traced out in great detail for the precise purpose of showing how the lineages of Jesus go through Jospeh (and another father, since there were in fact two Jesus children to begin with). What would be the point of all that if Joseph actually had nothing to do with the birth of Jesus? We don't need clairvoyant perception here, just simple and sound reasoning. Do the critical scholars fare any better? No, they hold to the exact same dogmatic interpretation and then use that as a reason for dismissing the content, because it is absurd that a human child could be physically born without a human father. So the evangelicals and critical scholars are arguing over their own dogmatic illusions and the actual content has fallen by the wayside. We will find the same thing applies to many other aspects of scripture as well.

That is the inevitable result of a world-conception which doesn't take its start from experiencing, refining, enlivening, perfecting, etc. the tool of thinking itself. Then people end up producing or demanding 'proofs' for their own dogmas, which are either absurd or are not forthcoming because those dogmas are figments of their imagination. Just as we can live and swim in the default materialistic dogma that the brain must produce thinking for many years before something of an idealistic nature alights within us and snaps us out of it, we can swim in religious dogmas and fight either for or against them for many years until something similar snaps us out of it. In my evangelical/apologetic phase, I accepted the 'virign birth' dogma for years and I never once noticed the obvious discrepancy mentioned above. I simply lacked the imaginative depth to resonate with deeper layers of idealistic-spiritual meaning within the content, sufficient to overcome the inherited dogma, even though it was staring me, like everyone else who studies the scripture, in the face. We can only hope to meet the descent and flattening of the sensory-conceptual spectrum with an ascent and expanding of our own cognition.

And the scripture itself tells us this:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Now to Him being able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept secret in times of the ages

No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began.

So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world."

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

(many more similar verses could be given)

That is the language of the mysteries and initiation. An 'order' of a priesthood was always known as a mystery school to people at that time. Again, it doesn't take clairvoyance to discern these things. All we need to do is open a history book which discusses the ancient mysteries and we will begin noticing all the parallels. The Christian esoteric path also allows us to begin, not only discerning the necessity of initiation for understanding the inner meaning of the script, but to begin actualizing that understanding. In fact, we can do that completely independent of the scriptures and then, when we revisit them after some time, we will intuitively understand how the spiritual truths underlying them could have not been conveyed in any other way for that time. The outer appearances of nature serve certain important purposes for the materialistic thinking of the modern era, but we know those appearances do not come close to exhausting their meaning. There was a recent discussion here on how to spiritually understand the manifestation of Light in the world. We shouldn't imagine it will be any different with the core religious texts.

The following passage speaks to this point as well:

This is what makes it possible for people to perceive anthroposophic truths directly. This descent of the head’s consciousness into the area of the larynx was what Dr. Carl Unger meant when he referred to “breathing in pure thinking as the first, albeit a shadowy, clairvoyance.”1 Such breathing in pure thought is, in fact, the basis of our hope that spiritual science will be accepted in the world. If the existence of formative etheric forces can be proved through scientific experiment—if it can be proved by philological and historic research that, for example, there really was an Atlantean civilization, and still it cannot be proved by experiment or by philology and history that, say, thrones, cherubim, and seraphim shape the just consequences of human life on Earth for the next life—nevertheless, we do not need merely to “believe” but can know, if we have the perceptive courage to steep ourselves in these suprasensory facts with all the force of calm thinking. The important thing is to have the courage to accept spiritual facts without requiring “sources” and “proofs.” Pure spiritual science can have no source but itself. It is the strength of Rudolf Steiner’s life work that its source is in itself; it contains in itself all that is needed to arrive at an honest and independent conviction.

Tomberg, Valentin; Bruce, R.H.. Christ and Sophia: Anthroposophic Meditations on the Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocalypse (pp. 67-68). steinerbooks. Kindle Edition.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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