Re: Illustrated World Conceptions (by Cleric)
Posted: Sat May 27, 2023 7:55 pm
Anthony66 wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 3:32 pm Of course many of the "dogmas" which the evangelicals hold to find presence in the early church, even in those who were taught by the apostles. The ecclesiastical churches (Roman, Orthodox) make make the case for the authenticity of their tradition based on the close relationship of the fathers to the apostles and their adherence to the father's interpretation of scripture. In contrast, Samuel Zinner, an ancient history scholar, makes the case that one can certainly identify the esoteric thread in Jesus' teaching which wasn't picked up in the orthodox church.
Regarding the concept of mystery, there is a sense in the NT that the past mysteries have now been illuminated in Jesus Christ. Paul talks about one such mystery being that the Gentiles were always going to be part of the body of Christ.
How would one establish that the apostolic line is a line of initiation? I recall listening to a Steiner lecture where he spoke of the apostles and gospel writers being initiates. That's strikes me as a little curious given the gospel accounts, for the most part, present the disciples as a bunch of bumbling fools.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 10:51 pmAnthony66 wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 3:32 pm Of course many of the "dogmas" which the evangelicals hold to find presence in the early church, even in those who were taught by the apostles. The ecclesiastical churches (Roman, Orthodox) make make the case for the authenticity of their tradition based on the close relationship of the fathers to the apostles and their adherence to the father's interpretation of scripture. In contrast, Samuel Zinner, an ancient history scholar, makes the case that one can certainly identify the esoteric thread in Jesus' teaching which wasn't picked up in the orthodox church.
Regarding the concept of mystery, there is a sense in the NT that the past mysteries have now been illuminated in Jesus Christ. Paul talks about one such mystery being that the Gentiles were always going to be part of the body of Christ.
St. Augustine is practically synonymous with modern theology, or so it would seem, but then we read - "What is now called the Christian religion already existed among the ancients, and was not lacking at the very beginnings of the human race. When Christ appeared in the flesh, the true religion already in existence received the name of Christian." Which is also aligned with what you mention above about the past mysteries being illuminated.
He also wrote, "The tree [of knowledge] which had brought about the Fall and the loss of Paradise, shall be the instrument of redemption."
These are quite esoteric statements which may draw accusations from evangelicals of 'paganism' and 'salvation by works', respectively, if they are unaware that it was Augustine who made them. Otherwise they will rationalize them away.
I'm not saying the early Church didn't also have its rigid dogmas, because clearly it did, but we also shouldn't overestimate our own intellectual capacity, in the 21st capacity, to know how they inwardly experienced the doctrines taught at the dawn of the new era. And the apostolic line is indeed important, but not for the reasons modern theologians think - it was primarily a line of initiation and esoteric teaching. General consciousness of that faded away in stages until it was completely lost in the modern age.
Anthony66 wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 5:51 amHow would one establish that the apostolic line is a line of initiation? I recall listening to a Steiner lecture where he spoke of the apostles and gospel writers being initiates. That's strikes me as a little curious given the gospel accounts, for the most part, present the disciples as a bunch of bumbling fools.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 10:51 pmAnthony66 wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 3:32 pm Of course many of the "dogmas" which the evangelicals hold to find presence in the early church, even in those who were taught by the apostles. The ecclesiastical churches (Roman, Orthodox) make make the case for the authenticity of their tradition based on the close relationship of the fathers to the apostles and their adherence to the father's interpretation of scripture. In contrast, Samuel Zinner, an ancient history scholar, makes the case that one can certainly identify the esoteric thread in Jesus' teaching which wasn't picked up in the orthodox church.
Regarding the concept of mystery, there is a sense in the NT that the past mysteries have now been illuminated in Jesus Christ. Paul talks about one such mystery being that the Gentiles were always going to be part of the body of Christ.
St. Augustine is practically synonymous with modern theology, or so it would seem, but then we read - "What is now called the Christian religion already existed among the ancients, and was not lacking at the very beginnings of the human race. When Christ appeared in the flesh, the true religion already in existence received the name of Christian." Which is also aligned with what you mention above about the past mysteries being illuminated.
He also wrote, "The tree [of knowledge] which had brought about the Fall and the loss of Paradise, shall be the instrument of redemption."
These are quite esoteric statements which may draw accusations from evangelicals of 'paganism' and 'salvation by works', respectively, if they are unaware that it was Augustine who made them. Otherwise they will rationalize them away.
I'm not saying the early Church didn't also have its rigid dogmas, because clearly it did, but we also shouldn't overestimate our own intellectual capacity, in the 21st capacity, to know how they inwardly experienced the doctrines taught at the dawn of the new era. And the apostolic line is indeed important, but not for the reasons modern theologians think - it was primarily a line of initiation and esoteric teaching. General consciousness of that faded away in stages until it was completely lost in the modern age.
Another thing that strikes me at this point is the absence of some major exoteric themes in the esoteric stream - salvation, forgiveness of sins, justification, and worship.
Nonetheless, we must look for the source of Christian confidence in other areas; it flows from the Christ being. As long as Christ has confidence in humanity, human beings will maintain confidence in the heart of the world. The confidence of the heart of the world is boundless. Christ is the one being in the world who completely trusts humankind, whereas other beings have various degrees of such confidence. And for us, Christianity means complete confidence in Christ. Christianity depends on confidence, one hundred percent. The primary purpose of all knowledge of the Mystery of Golgotha, the resurrection, Pentecost, and much else is to perfect this complete confidence. Knowledge of Christ’s sacrifice—accomplished with confidence in humankind—will become a powerful impulse of conscience that invokes an equally complete confidence to meet it. The measure of Christ’s confidence in humanity is expressed in the promise he left us: “I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). It tells us that his confidence in humanity will not be withdrawn while the world and time endures. The appropriate human response to this confidence is found in the words of St. Paul: “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Galatians 2:20). These words are the true formula of human confidence in Christ.
Tomberg, Valentin; Bruce, R.H.. Christ and Sophia: Anthroposophic Meditations on the Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocalypse (p. 212). steinerbooks. Kindle Edition.
Justification is a process or state wherein sinners are made or declared to be righteous in the sight of God. In Protestant circles this is typically understood as a declarative act of God as a consequence of being covered with the righteousness of Christ despite one being intrinsically sinful. In Roman Catholic and Orthodox teaching, this is more a result of the infusion of Christ's righteousness - the sinner is declared righteous on the basis of their actual righteousness.Federica wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 8:47 am
Surely a neophyte's question, but what is justification?
For the other themes - salvation, forgiveness of sins, and worship - I believe they are addressed?
Salvation is the spiritual scientific path. Forgiveness of sins is gifted through the righteousness of karma, and worship is an individual encounter to initiate every time anew. The act of meditation-prayer is the building of the temple, the imaginative bloom is the language of warship, and the faith (in the sense described by Tomberg in this quote) is its quality and intensity.
Anthony66 wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 2:26 pmJustification is a process or state wherein sinners are made or declared to be righteous in the sight of God. In Protestant circles this is typically understood as a declarative act of God as a consequence of being covered with the righteousness of Christ despite one being intrinsically sinful. In Roman Catholic and Orthodox teaching, this is more a result of the infusion of Christ's righteousness - the sinner is declared righteous on the basis of their actual righteousness.Federica wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 8:47 am
Surely a neophyte's question, but what is justification?
For the other themes - salvation, forgiveness of sins, and worship - I believe they are addressed?
Salvation is the spiritual scientific path. Forgiveness of sins is gifted through the righteousness of karma, and worship is an individual encounter to initiate every time anew. The act of meditation-prayer is the building of the temple, the imaginative bloom is the language of warship, and the faith (in the sense described by Tomberg in this quote) is its quality and intensity.
Salvation as the spiritual scientific path certainly places a lot more responsibility on the individual compared to particularly the Protestant understanding of salvation by grace apart from works. The former presents a long path through eons of time compared to the latter's simple "come to Jesus moment".
As I write and ponder these words I am struck by how the theological concepts are very abstracted.
What we do know about some of the apostles in their latter years is that they preached the gospel throughout the Roman empire and beyond and a few of them died martyr's deaths. Do we have any sources beyond the works of Steiner indicating any form of initiatic transformation?AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 11:02 amAnthony66 wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 5:51 amHow would one establish that the apostolic line is a line of initiation? I recall listening to a Steiner lecture where he spoke of the apostles and gospel writers being initiates. That's strikes me as a little curious given the gospel accounts, for the most part, present the disciples as a bunch of bumbling fools.AshvinP wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 10:51 pm
St. Augustine is practically synonymous with modern theology, or so it would seem, but then we read - "What is now called the Christian religion already existed among the ancients, and was not lacking at the very beginnings of the human race. When Christ appeared in the flesh, the true religion already in existence received the name of Christian." Which is also aligned with what you mention above about the past mysteries being illuminated.
He also wrote, "The tree [of knowledge] which had brought about the Fall and the loss of Paradise, shall be the instrument of redemption."
These are quite esoteric statements which may draw accusations from evangelicals of 'paganism' and 'salvation by works', respectively, if they are unaware that it was Augustine who made them. Otherwise they will rationalize them away.
I'm not saying the early Church didn't also have its rigid dogmas, because clearly it did, but we also shouldn't overestimate our own intellectual capacity, in the 21st capacity, to know how they inwardly experienced the doctrines taught at the dawn of the new era. And the apostolic line is indeed important, but not for the reasons modern theologians think - it was primarily a line of initiation and esoteric teaching. General consciousness of that faded away in stages until it was completely lost in the modern age.
Another thing that strikes me at this point is the absence of some major exoteric themes in the esoteric stream - salvation, forgiveness of sins, justification, and worship.
They were in the process of being initiated, and in a completely different way than before. I think we all look like bumbling fools on this path at some point, do we not? Certainly we all express frustrations, misunderstandings, fears, doubts, etc. If everything goes smoothly, then we can be sure it isn't initiation.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially if we haven't really looked for the evidence! As usual, the issue is if we expect to find the domgatic and flattened understandings of salvation, forgiveness of sins, etc. in the estoeric stream. Then it wouldn't be an esoteric stream, but exoteric. The former penetrates deeper and elucidates why the latter has arisen.
In general, the esoteric streams point to how broader humanity will understand these spiritual realities in the future. Just as the esoteric perceptions of the ancient mysteries became exoteric in the Christ events (mystical fact), the esoteric perceptions of Christian intiation will become exoteric through future events. As our organic constitution evolves, we will begin to recover spiritual perception and understand our entire stream of becoming as concrete relations with spiritual beings which help (or hinder) the fulfilment of Earth's evolution into more spiritualized states. It is through the purifying impulse of Christ, as the Mediator between Cosmic and Earthly relations (just as human individuals mediate between culture and nature), that we are justified in our sinful nature before the higher worlds. He has united his Cosmic karma with the karma of Earth and humanity. Of course we really need to delve into the living details with our minds and hearts if we want to begin discerning the majesty in what such otherwise trite sayings mean. The esoteric dimension only gains as much depth as we are willing to offer it through our own devotion and effort. It is not about preaching doctrines or establishing mechanical routines of worship, but making our entire WFT lives into a dynamic form of worship.
Nonetheless, we must look for the source of Christian confidence in other areas; it flows from the Christ being. As long as Christ has confidence in humanity, human beings will maintain confidence in the heart of the world. The confidence of the heart of the world is boundless. Christ is the one being in the world who completely trusts humankind, whereas other beings have various degrees of such confidence. And for us, Christianity means complete confidence in Christ. Christianity depends on confidence, one hundred percent. The primary purpose of all knowledge of the Mystery of Golgotha, the resurrection, Pentecost, and much else is to perfect this complete confidence. Knowledge of Christ’s sacrifice—accomplished with confidence in humankind—will become a powerful impulse of conscience that invokes an equally complete confidence to meet it. The measure of Christ’s confidence in humanity is expressed in the promise he left us: “I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). It tells us that his confidence in humanity will not be withdrawn while the world and time endures. The appropriate human response to this confidence is found in the words of St. Paul: “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Galatians 2:20). These words are the true formula of human confidence in Christ.
Tomberg, Valentin; Bruce, R.H.. Christ and Sophia: Anthroposophic Meditations on the Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocalypse (p. 212). steinerbooks. Kindle Edition.
In his conclusion, he takes a swipe at the esotericists but I don't think he lands on the esotericism spoken of around here.I have been asked many times about my religiously “syncretistic” habits of thought, and why despite those habits I dissociate myself entirely from the “perennialist” school, and why I choose to speak of a prisca theologia when discussing the commonalities between faiths rather than of a philosophia perennis. I have decided to provide these notes as a kind of answer, if not a wholly systematic one; and I have decided to speak with a certain candor about perennialism.
When I speak of prisca theologia, what I have in mind—to use a musical analogy—is a kind of polyphonic, rather than monodic, understanding of religious difference: a music of interwoven contrapuntal accords, harmonies, and briefly sustained dissonances rather than a music subordinate to a single dominant theme, accompanied by mere chromatic embellishments. At least, as the most fetching metaphor I can summon up.
And this, to return to the beginning, is what I mean by a “polyphonic” understanding of religious differences. Again, I do not believe in the existence of any real esoteric transmissions of privileged wisdom in any of the major traditions. Nothing of significance has ever been learned in hidden caves outside the city walls, where small circles of initiates foregather to intone mystic litanies and pore over secret doctrines. There are no hermetic symbolic economies cunningly woven into the exoteric fabrics of the great faiths, whose deeper meanings are known to only a very few. There are, of course, differing levels of metaphysical sophistication among believers, but that is something very different. But the Buddha taught with open hand; Christ taught daily in the temple; Ramanuja proclaimed the way to truth in the open, even at risk to his own soul. As for the esotericists, leave them in their damned caves.
What I believe in, then, is a kind of contrapuntal complementarity of traditions, interweaving with one another in moments of consonance and moments of dissonance, departing from one another into thematic developments of their own, enriching and ironizing one another, echoing and inverting one another, and all together reaching toward a final resolution—adumbrated in all that has led to it, and yet undoubtedly immeasurably more than any of our traditions can fully foresee.
Anthony66 wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 3:24 pmWhat we do know about some of the apostles in their latter years is that they preached the gospel throughout the Roman empire and beyond and a few of them died martyr's deaths. Do we have any sources beyond the works of Steiner indicating any form of initiatic transformation?AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 11:02 amAnthony66 wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 5:51 am
How would one establish that the apostolic line is a line of initiation? I recall listening to a Steiner lecture where he spoke of the apostles and gospel writers being initiates. That's strikes me as a little curious given the gospel accounts, for the most part, present the disciples as a bunch of bumbling fools.
Another thing that strikes me at this point is the absence of some major exoteric themes in the esoteric stream - salvation, forgiveness of sins, justification, and worship.
They were in the process of being initiated, and in a completely different way than before. I think we all look like bumbling fools on this path at some point, do we not? Certainly we all express frustrations, misunderstandings, fears, doubts, etc. If everything goes smoothly, then we can be sure it isn't initiation.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially if we haven't really looked for the evidence! As usual, the issue is if we expect to find the domgatic and flattened understandings of salvation, forgiveness of sins, etc. in the estoeric stream. Then it wouldn't be an esoteric stream, but exoteric. The former penetrates deeper and elucidates why the latter has arisen.
In general, the esoteric streams point to how broader humanity will understand these spiritual realities in the future. Just as the esoteric perceptions of the ancient mysteries became exoteric in the Christ events (mystical fact), the esoteric perceptions of Christian intiation will become exoteric through future events. As our organic constitution evolves, we will begin to recover spiritual perception and understand our entire stream of becoming as concrete relations with spiritual beings which help (or hinder) the fulfilment of Earth's evolution into more spiritualized states. It is through the purifying impulse of Christ, as the Mediator between Cosmic and Earthly relations (just as human individuals mediate between culture and nature), that we are justified in our sinful nature before the higher worlds. He has united his Cosmic karma with the karma of Earth and humanity. Of course we really need to delve into the living details with our minds and hearts if we want to begin discerning the majesty in what such otherwise trite sayings mean. The esoteric dimension only gains as much depth as we are willing to offer it through our own devotion and effort. It is not about preaching doctrines or establishing mechanical routines of worship, but making our entire WFT lives into a dynamic form of worship.
Nonetheless, we must look for the source of Christian confidence in other areas; it flows from the Christ being. As long as Christ has confidence in humanity, human beings will maintain confidence in the heart of the world. The confidence of the heart of the world is boundless. Christ is the one being in the world who completely trusts humankind, whereas other beings have various degrees of such confidence. And for us, Christianity means complete confidence in Christ. Christianity depends on confidence, one hundred percent. The primary purpose of all knowledge of the Mystery of Golgotha, the resurrection, Pentecost, and much else is to perfect this complete confidence. Knowledge of Christ’s sacrifice—accomplished with confidence in humankind—will become a powerful impulse of conscience that invokes an equally complete confidence to meet it. The measure of Christ’s confidence in humanity is expressed in the promise he left us: “I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). It tells us that his confidence in humanity will not be withdrawn while the world and time endures. The appropriate human response to this confidence is found in the words of St. Paul: “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Galatians 2:20). These words are the true formula of human confidence in Christ.
Tomberg, Valentin; Bruce, R.H.. Christ and Sophia: Anthroposophic Meditations on the Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocalypse (p. 212). steinerbooks. Kindle Edition.
...
In reference to your quote of Augustine above, today I received a substack article from David Bentley Hart (Orthodox theologian and philosopher) where he reflected on the relationship of Christianity to the other faiths. Here's the introduction:
In his conclusion, he takes a swipe at the esotericists but I don't think he lands on the esotericism spoken of around here.I have been asked many times about my religiously “syncretistic” habits of thought, and why despite those habits I dissociate myself entirely from the “perennialist” school, and why I choose to speak of a prisca theologia when discussing the commonalities between faiths rather than of a philosophia perennis. I have decided to provide these notes as a kind of answer, if not a wholly systematic one; and I have decided to speak with a certain candor about perennialism.
When I speak of prisca theologia, what I have in mind—to use a musical analogy—is a kind of polyphonic, rather than monodic, understanding of religious difference: a music of interwoven contrapuntal accords, harmonies, and briefly sustained dissonances rather than a music subordinate to a single dominant theme, accompanied by mere chromatic embellishments. At least, as the most fetching metaphor I can summon up.
And this, to return to the beginning, is what I mean by a “polyphonic” understanding of religious differences. Again, I do not believe in the existence of any real esoteric transmissions of privileged wisdom in any of the major traditions. Nothing of significance has ever been learned in hidden caves outside the city walls, where small circles of initiates foregather to intone mystic litanies and pore over secret doctrines. There are no hermetic symbolic economies cunningly woven into the exoteric fabrics of the great faiths, whose deeper meanings are known to only a very few. There are, of course, differing levels of metaphysical sophistication among believers, but that is something very different. But the Buddha taught with open hand; Christ taught daily in the temple; Ramanuja proclaimed the way to truth in the open, even at risk to his own soul. As for the esotericists, leave them in their damned caves.
What I believe in, then, is a kind of contrapuntal complementarity of traditions, interweaving with one another in moments of consonance and moments of dissonance, departing from one another into thematic developments of their own, enriching and ironizing one another, echoing and inverting one another, and all together reaching toward a final resolution—adumbrated in all that has led to it, and yet undoubtedly immeasurably more than any of our traditions can fully foresee.
Acts 2 wrote:When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Anthony wrote:Another thing that has occurred to me is the emphasis of faith in the gospel accounts. There is a hidden element, something most vital, something that silently abides amid change, the constantly inexpressible within each transitory expression. This hidden aspect has to be taken hold of by faith. Esoteric practice seems diametrically opposed to this, or at least in significant tension. One enters into this holy of holies to take hold of it.
A closer study shall be reserved for later, but here the point is to express the basic thought that the Word of Jesus Christ contains the impulse to the spiritual transformation of toil. This transformed toil is called pistis, or faith, in the Gospels. Faith here does not mean upholding the verity of one’s own (much less others’) ideas, but one’s grasp of a growing reality of the suprasensory world, making it the focus of one’s volition. What is already present can be either known or not known, but what lives as possibility in this world and reality in a higher realm can be (in terms of the Gospels) only believed or not believed. For example, we cannot know whether the Michael impulse will be victorious in the current spiritual conflict; we cannot know this, because the outcome of the conflict depends precisely upon whether the necessary faith in Michael’s work exists among human beings—that is, whether both an observant and a cooperative current of volition flows in from the human side. By simply recognizing the fact of that conflict, we are at least aware that it is happening; by making its outcome our personal concern, however, we develop a spiritual force that goes beyond merely witnessing the events to where we also help determine them. Such a purposeful grasp of the future is called “faith” by Jesus Christ.
Tomberg, Valentin; Bruce, R.H.. Christ and Sophia: Anthroposophic Meditations on the Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocalypse (p. 187). steinerbooks. Kindle Edition.
Anthony66 wrote: ↑Mon May 29, 2023 2:26 pmJustification is a process or state wherein sinners are made or declared to be righteous in the sight of God. In Protestant circles this is typically understood as a declarative act of God as a consequence of being covered with the righteousness of Christ despite one being intrinsically sinful. In Roman Catholic and Orthodox teaching, this is more a result of the infusion of Christ's righteousness - the sinner is declared righteous on the basis of their actual righteousness.Federica wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 8:47 am
Surely a neophyte's question, but what is justification?
For the other themes - salvation, forgiveness of sins, and worship - I believe they are addressed?
Salvation is the spiritual scientific path. Forgiveness of sins is gifted through the righteousness of karma, and worship is an individual encounter to initiate every time anew. The act of meditation-prayer is the building of the temple, the imaginative bloom is the language of warship, and the faith (in the sense described by Tomberg in this quote) is its quality and intensity.
Salvation as the spiritual scientific path certainly places a lot more responsibility on the individual compared to particularly the Protestant understanding of salvation by grace apart from works. The former presents a long path through eons of time compared to the latter's simple "come to Jesus moment".
As I write and ponder these words I am struck by how the theological concepts are very abstracted.