Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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AshvinP
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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Federica wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:25 am Ashvin,

If you haven't seen it already, there is this interview of Robert Powell, where he speaks very interestingly of many things, in particular of Valentin Tomberg, how Powell came to translating Meditations on the Tarot to English, how he understands Tomberg's move towards the Catholic Church, and some more insights from his works.
In the video there is a lengthy introduction by the hosts that I think is not necessary to watch, then Robert Powell starts talking about Tomberg through his discovery of Steiner, at 14:10 for about 15 minutes:



Thanks for sharing, Federica. I will definitely listen to it soon.

Powell has some interesting comments about Tomberg on the Sophia Foundation website as well. I particularly like how he compares Tomberg to the more Platonic stream that needed to unite with Steiner’s more Aristotelean stream, as Steiner himself indicated (that those two streams should unite in the 20th century). Unfortunately, that didn't really happen within the Anthroposophical society.

I think this deeper angle on the tension could also inform a lot of the mystical criticism of Anthroposophy that one frequently encounters. There are valid reasons to be constructively critical, but one must seek the criticism on the same plane of vertical depth where that which is being criticized also exists. In this case, it is not on the plane of intellectual philosophies or scientific theories, secular or religious, but on the plane of deeply Christ-centered spirituality, as an experiential path. Within that plane, I can certainly understand and empathize with Tomberg's move to the Catholic Church.
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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AshvinP wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:18 pm I think this deeper angle on the tension could also inform a lot of the mystical criticism of Anthroposophy that one frequently encounters. There are valid reasons to be constructively critical, but one must seek the criticism on the same plane of vertical depth where that which is being criticized also exists. In this case, it is not on the plane of intellectual philosophies or scientific theories, secular or religious, but on the plane of deeply Christ-centered spirituality, as an experiential path. Within that plane, I can certainly understand and empathize with Tomberg's move to the Catholic Church.

This is much in alignment with Powell's own comments on Tomberg's decision to join the Catholic Church, that he sees as a sort of working sacrifice, towards the union of the two streams.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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On living/organic thinking as conceptual/symbolic order (rather than a conceptual "system")

We often refer to 'living thinking' here, but it's probably difficult to discern what this phrase means exactly, in contrast to the normal conceptual thinking we are raised into and mostly familiar with. Another way to phrase it is 'organic thinking', as opposed to thinking which only grasps 'inorganic nature' (which is basically an oxymoron, since only our own mechanical systems can exist - temporarily - isolated from living processes in the World). Our thinking must become living in order to grasp what is Living in nature, since life is the image of higher ideational activity projected into the spatiotemporal dimension of our convoluted consciousness. With the phrase 'organic thinking', we immediately have the connotation of a thought-organism which is rooted within and around central organic structures, i.e. reasoned principles, but never ceases to grow, adapt, and evolve.

The central means through which organic thinking proceeds is that of symbols, rather than definitional constructs that have been (temporarily) stripped of symbolic value. The symbolic approach treats concepts as open-ended portals that simultaneously distinguish between phenomenal appearances and unites them, while the systematic approach tends towards closed loops of reductive thinking. The definitional concept or conceptual system presupposes a known unity to which all phenomenal details can be reduced in thought, while the symbolic concept or conceptual ordering presupposes a mysterious unity which is progressively and experientially revealed through the phenomenal details. The archetypal example of this - the Symbol of all symbols - is the Cross. Through the symbolic ordering of the Cross, we can distinguish the elements of nature, the kingdoms of nature, the planes of existence, the poles of existence, and much besides, while simultaneously perceiving their interrelations which weave them into higher Unities.

Of course, we can't simply stare at a Cross and hope all these relations are revealed to us without any effort. Symbols are promptings for us to go searching inwardly with our spiritual activity for how their essential relations are expressed in our stream of becoming. For ex., I once used the image below for an essay on the spiritual value of music. We can contemplate such an essay and symbol to begin exploring the structured musical quality of our willing-feeling-thinking, body-soul-spirit, and steer towards our spiritual ideal of harmonizing their activities within us - "Life, like a musical instrument, being harmonized by remission and intention, becomes more agreeable." (Pythagoras). We will not be too bothered if the correspondences don't always line up or sometimes willing-feeling-thinking is associated with the spirit-soul-body, respectively, rather than the other way around. Life does not obey any mechanical rules. If we wanted to create a 'system' out of it with dead/inorganic thinking, on the other hand, we would take note of the correspondences expressed, perhaps combining them with some other correspondences we have been given by others, cement them in stone, and then try to explain all aspects of musical experience and perhaps the experience of our entire inner life in terms of those correspondences.


Image


Even this conceptual explanation of the distinction between conceptual systems and symbolic orders should be treated as an open-ended symbol, pointing towards a path of experience by which mysterious unities of our conceptual thought-life are unveiled. It provides a basic principle or ideal of conceptual thinking around which our thoughts can grow. We are not interested so much in fixing parameters and boundaries which make it convenient to think about the thought-organism, but actually experiencing with the 'shape' of our thinking the real-time growth of that organism. The generous use of metaphors, analogies, diagrams, illustrations, etc. cultivate this symbolic/organic thinking and provide a viable means of communicating essential knowledge to ourselves and others without reducing any of that knowledge to rigid metaphysical systems that presuppose a top-level view of the World, thereby forestalling our spiritual growth in its tracks.

***

In what, then, does the essence of the "monovalent" concept (the concept strictly limited to a single meaning) and of the "system" consist? Let us take as an example the concept of freedom and consider its meaning in different con- texts. In international law, for example, one speaks of the "freedom of the seas," meaning that beyond the boundaries of the so-called territorial waters the ocean is open to the ships of any nation. The ocean does not belong to any state, and the freedom of the sea thus means "free use" of it by countries, particularly for the purposes of navigation and fishing.

Then again, when we speak in ordinary usage of the freedom of persons or citizens, we do not mean the "free use of persons or of citizens by a third party". On the contrary, we mean that the person or the citizen alone disposes of himself. To free a slave means to dispense with the right to dispose over him, and to hand this right over to the former slave himself. But when we speak of our "free will," we mean neither that our will is at everyone else's disposal (like the ocean is at the disposal of states for their use) nor that the will disposes over itself, since the will can just as little dispose over itself as Baron von Munchausen can pull himself up into the air by his pigtails. What we mean by our free will is the capacity to choose between objects, actions, good and evil, etc.

The concept of freedom is given a different content in Hegel's work. By "freedom" Hegel understands not the will's capacity to choose, but the will's obedience to reason. For Hegel, being free does not mean doing what one wants; it means wanting, and doing, what reason commands. The concept of "freedom" has still another meaning in Schiller's work. For Schiller, freedom means a state of consciousness in which the irrational play-instinct and the strict command of reason are united in the experience of the beautiful, and that these contract an alliance for the sake of the beautiful. Then both the mind's control of instinct and instinct's control of the mind come to an end: we are free.

The concept of "freedom" has yet another content in Indian religious philosophy, in the Vedanta and Yoga. There, freedom means the state of having been freed from the bonds that tie consciousness to maya (the illusion of separate existence in the world of appearances). Here the content of the concept of "freedom" is the repose of consciousness that is without desires.

If we turn to the New Testament, to the epistles of the apostle Paul, we meet another concept of freedom, distinct from those just introduced. "Freedom in Christ", which there contrasted with "unfreedom under the law", is the freedom from fear and doubt in life and in death. Death's sting has been removed, as well as the reason for fear and doubt. For the human being's task will henceforth no longer be completed out of fear of punishment, but out of love. The content of the Pauline concept of freedom is love of God and humanity.

Finally, Nikolai Berdyaev, who continued work begun in Jakob Boehme's and Schelling's thinking about freedom, gave the concept of freedom the content of "creation out of nothing." For him, freedom means the capacity to bring forth being from non-being.

In order, then, to obtain a strictly limited or concept of freedom, we will have to choose one monovalent particular concept from among those introduced above (or from among other concepts of freedom not discussed here), or else seek an all-embracing concept that contains all these concepts and to be obtained by abstracting from them.

... How should we define "freedom" in order to simultaneously and equitably do justice to such varied concepts of freedom as those put forward by Berdyaev, the apostle Paul, Hegel, theology, and jurisprudence? Should we nevertheless surmount this difficulty and recover our peace of mind by means of some sort of definition (such as "freedom is a being's unrestricted and uncoerced development" or "freedom is the capacity for uncaused causation" or "freedom is the state of the subject in which it legislates for itself"), we would still have to deal with the question of what is actually gained by such a definition. Certainly, we would acquire thereby a clear-cut concept bringing together the different aspects of the concept of freedom under a single heading, but this will have been achieved at the expense of the comprehensiveness of the concept of freedom. For such an all-embracing concept or definition of freedom could only be a "remainder" left after stripping away the individual particularities of the various concepts of freedom. What is common to all (or to many) of the conceptions of freedom will have been found and defined, but at the price of having lost what is particular to each of them singly. Conversely, however, if we concentrate solely on the particular, we lose what is held in common. How, then, might we express the concept of freedom so as to do justice both to what is com- mon to all the possible ideas of it, and to what is particular to each of those ideas?

Since the very earliest times, and in every part of the world, human consciousness has found an answer to this question in the symbol. The symbol is intended to be a means of expression that has a single meaning as well as a multiplicity of meanings. In the symbol, what is held in common and what is particular abide together; they are combined, not in a definition, but in an emblem.

If, rather than bringing the various conceptions of freedom to under the single heading of an all-embracing definition, we combine them in the emblem of a central point from which rays emanate to the periphery, we acquire a form of exposition that can contain many monovalent concepts, and yet bring them all into a unity. A symbol never collapses, no matter how many distinctly different concepts we might want to create out of it. Neither does a symbol ever wither away into a mere abstraction, no matter how far we might progress in seeking and finding its final and ultimate content. The cross placed above churches, and inside them, means a great many things; and yet, in these many things, it means only one thing. It is a true symbol.
...
At this juncture it is important to point out that an ordered thinking represents something essentially different from the result of systematic thinking. Whereas thinking under the rubric of a system is built around a single ruling principle, thinking in accordance with order (ie, ordered thinking) takes into account many principles at the same time, while still retaining the quality of order. This ordering quality may become evident in how issues set before it for consideration follow from one from another in an orderly way according to their actual content...

Now, every course of thinking... is intent on an ultimate unity concealed by multiplicity of appearances, the unity revealed in those appearances. Indeed, the ultimate unity of the world is a postulate of "knowability itself", for if in its essence the world were not a unity, knowledge as such would not be possible. This is why the vennern of every striving knowledge is directed at discovering and knowing the unity lying concealed behind multiplicity, the unity made known by means of multiplicity. The difference in this respect between a system and an order is that a system elevates a single experiential content (or something deriving from that content) into the "principle" by means of which the multiplicity of experience is to be explained, whereas an order has to do with an ultimate mystery that it aims to solve by means of the multiplicity of experience.

A system knows one thing, and aims to explain many other things with its help; an order aims to solve one ultimate mystery, and to do so invokes many other things. Thus, the whole doctrinal edifice of St Thomas Aquinas has knowledge of the mystery of the Holy Trinity of God as its ultimate goal; it is ordered in such a way that, by making use of many things and methods (Scripture, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, logic, and philosophy), he brings his readers ever closer to this goal. He establishes many secondary and partial insights stemming from the one mystery he is seeking to solve. Builders of systems proceed in quite another way: they take one thing as known or given, and, by reducing multiplicity (that is, many other things) to this one thing, propose to explain them with its help.

Whether this one thing underpinning and explaining multiplicity is discovered among outer experiences or such things as "libido," "will to power", or "reason", there are no real differences in each case... Systematic thinking may in principle be described as a mechanism, whereas "ordered" thinking (if adequate to its content and thus, as it were, "fully grown") should instead be compared with an organism. Organic order stems from a series of independent investigations, and is as different as can be from systematic postulates, which, having been fixed from the beginning, determine the content of individual concepts. Organic order is a pattern of thoughts that emerges at the end of the process. In principle, moreover, such a pattern of thoughts can never be brought to an end: it remains open to further growth.

In systematic thinking, the content and value of each individual concept is determined by its preconceived ruling principle. By contrast, the summarizing proposition stemming (rather like a blossom or fruit) from ordered thinking is determined by the content of the individual concepts it takes under advisement in the course of its unfolding. Thus, for instance, the pattern of thought Kant set out for the world is not a system. It is, rather, a summation of his investigation of the theoretical capacity for knowledge, of practical moral consciousness, and of the power of aesthetic judgement - arrived at in three different ways, and yielding different and mutually conflicting results.

- Valentin Tomberg, "Personal Certainty: On the Way, the Truth, & the Life"
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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Timely post (for me, anyway), as I've been doing a fair amount of thinking about thinking lately. With the constant worry that I'm in danger of being overly systematic. But it could be that one can't be, as long as thinking is that which is being thought about. A couple of quotes are, I think relevant. First from (I think) Augustine, in re the Trinity, or was it the God/human nature of Christ:

"If you understand it, you're wrong."

And, from Goethe:

"One is only truly thinking when that which one is thinking cannot be thought through."

Could living (organic) thinking be defined as, in spite of these warnings, to keep trying to understand, or think through, such content? Except that wanting to define seems to be a sign of systematic thinking.
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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ScottRoberts wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 10:20 pm Timely post (for me, anyway), as I've been doing a fair amount of thinking about thinking lately. With the constant worry that I'm in danger of being overly systematic. But it could be that one can't be, as long as thinking is that which is being thought about. A couple of quotes are, I think relevant. First from (I think) Augustine, in re the Trinity, or was it the God/human nature of Christ:

"If you understand it, you're wrong."

And, from Goethe:

"One is only truly thinking when that which one is thinking cannot be thought through."

Could living (organic) thinking be defined as, in spite of these warnings, to keep trying to understand, or think through, such content? Except that wanting to define seems to be a sign of systematic thinking.

Scott,

I would say that organic thinking could be partially understood (not completely defined) as continually thinking through the World Content, when all that Content is approached in its symbolic nature. All content should be understood as symbols for nested layers of spiritual activity, similar to what you write in bold. We could use the following as an ex.

A certain man had two sons, and the younger of them said to his father, "Father, give me the portion of thy wealth that would fall to me at thy death." He did so, and a few days after the younger son gathered all his wealth together and journeyed into a far country. There he met with evil companions, and wasted his money in riotous living. When he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land, and he began to be in want of bread to eat. So he went and hired himself to a man of that country, who sent him into the fields to feed his pigs. And he was so hungry that he would have been glad to have eaten the coarse food such as the swine eat; but no one gave it to him.

His sufferings brought him to his senses, and he thought how foolish he had been, for he remembered that his father's servants had food enough and to spare, whilst his father's son was perishing with hunger. He said, "I will leave this land and go to my father and tell him how I have sinned against heaven and him. I will tell him I am no longer worthy to be called his son, and will implore him to make me one of his hired servants." And he arose and went towards his father's house, but when he was still a great way off, his father saw him, and was sorry for him, and ran and embraced him. Then he told his father how he had sinned and had lost his title to be called the old man's son, but the father was so glad to have his son come back repentant, that he told his servants to bring the best clothing and a ring to put on his son. And he made a great feast, and they were merry, for he said, "This is my son that was as one dead to me and is now alive again; he was lost and is found."

We could think through the above for its mere content value, analyzing it as a series of reported events which can be reduced to some final unity, like that of Divine Love. Then we create a commentary for the passage that simply explains all the verses in terms of the Fall away from Divine Love and the return to that Love - the principle unity to which all the phenomenal details are reduced. Then we rest satisfied that we have "understood" the parable and there is no more mystery to it.

Or, instead, we can think through it, with devoted attention and concentration, as a symbolic gesture towards the living experience of Thinking descending through convolutions into the trivialities, banalities, frivolities, etc. of fragmented sensory existence, where it endures much suffering, toil, and death, before reascending to its rightful home where it is welcomed with overflowing Grace. Now we are understanding it as the very story of our rhythmic lives, as individuals and collectives, and across many scales of existence. The very act of reading the parable with devoted concentration is a means of participating in the fulfillment of its overarching intentions. We are not reading to satisfy curiosity or accumulate conceptual constructs or to become more virtuous, but to faithfully fulfill the Divine intents through our living activity and patient receptivity of insights. Organic thinking is seed-planting that nourishes thought and humbly waits for Divine grace to ripen the fruit of that thought, i.e. the inflowing of practical insights into our stream of becoming. It is a progressive interiorization/spiritualization of the WC that never ceases.

All symbols of spiritual activity can be stripped of their symbolic value, whether those are phenomena of nature and culture or even esoteric facts of supra-sensory reality (like planetary incarnations, subtle members of the human being, planes of existence, laws of karma, etc.) when employed for constructing a mere conceptual system. We could probably define the 'modern age' as that period of history which stripped symbolic appearances of their symbolic function across all domains of inquiry. So even if we are thinking about the concept of "thinking", if that becomes a means towards a mere system (i.e. constructing a 'tower of babel'), then the concept of "thinking" becomes no more than a placeholder for the quantitative structuring of other familiar concepts in our current consciousness. We are no longer following the gestures of the conceptual symbol into new and unfamiliar territory of ideal relations, but simply traveling around in a circle of concepts that purport to explain away the phenomenon of "thinking". 
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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AshvinP wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 12:47 pm I would say that organic thinking could be partially understood (not completely defined) as continually thinking through the World Content, when all that Content is approached in its symbolic nature. All content should be understood as symbols for nested layers of spiritual activity, similar to what you write in bold.
I'd say this becomes questionable when dealing with what I call non-referential content, which we encounter in mathematics and instrumental music. But take this as a quibble, since in general I agree. For example, I regard all physical reality as symbolic.
All symbols of spiritual activity can be stripped of their symbolic value, whether those are phenomena of nature and culture or even esoteric facts of supra-sensory reality (like planetary incarnations, subtle members of the human being, planes of existence, laws of karma, etc.) when employed for constructing a mere conceptual system. We could probably define the 'modern age' as that period of history which stripped symbolic appearances of their symbolic function across all domains of inquiry. So even if we are thinking about the concept of "thinking", if that becomes a means towards a mere system (i.e. constructing a 'tower of babel'), then the concept of "thinking" becomes no more than a placeholder for the quantitative structuring of other familiar concepts in our current consciousness. We are no longer following the gestures of the conceptual symbol into new and unfamiliar territory of ideal relations, but simply traveling around in a circle of concepts that purport to explain away the phenomenon of "thinking". 
If 'thinking' (more generally 'ideational activity') is one's ontological prime, one can't explain it away. It is, rather, the foundation of all explanations. Which, by the way, is what makes this the only concrete OP. (Even 'mind' or 'consciousness' are susceptible to abstraction, for example, when one postulates Absolute Formless Consciousness, or Schopenhauer's Will.)
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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ScottRoberts wrote: Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:15 am
AshvinP wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 12:47 pm I would say that organic thinking could be partially understood (not completely defined) as continually thinking through the World Content, when all that Content is approached in its symbolic nature. All content should be understood as symbols for nested layers of spiritual activity, similar to what you write in bold.
I'd say this becomes questionable when dealing with what I call non-referential content, which we encounter in mathematics and instrumental music. But take this as a quibble, since in general I agree. For example, I regard all physical reality as symbolic.

With "content", I am basically referring to anything that belongs to the realm of phenomenal appearances, including anything we can conceive. Our entire conceptual life, including our entire sense of 'me', is a phenomenal appearance in this way, and should be taken as a symbol for unfamiliar/unknown spiritual activity to be progressively unveiled. Would you still say there can be 'non-referential content' under this expansive formulation?

Scott wrote:
All symbols of spiritual activity can be stripped of their symbolic value, whether those are phenomena of nature and culture or even esoteric facts of supra-sensory reality (like planetary incarnations, subtle members of the human being, planes of existence, laws of karma, etc.) when employed for constructing a mere conceptual system. We could probably define the 'modern age' as that period of history which stripped symbolic appearances of their symbolic function across all domains of inquiry. So even if we are thinking about the concept of "thinking", if that becomes a means towards a mere system (i.e. constructing a 'tower of babel'), then the concept of "thinking" becomes no more than a placeholder for the quantitative structuring of other familiar concepts in our current consciousness. We are no longer following the gestures of the conceptual symbol into new and unfamiliar territory of ideal relations, but simply traveling around in a circle of concepts that purport to explain away the phenomenon of "thinking". 
If 'thinking' (more generally 'ideational activity') is one's ontological prime, one can't explain it away. It is, rather, the foundation of all explanations. Which, by the way, is what makes this the only concrete OP. (Even 'mind' or 'consciousness' are susceptible to abstraction, for example, when one postulates Absolute Formless Consciousness, or Schopenhauer's Will.)

Right, that is the ideal. But in practice, it seems the OP is the first thing to be explained away, in so far as it is felt to be known. This is one of the biggest traps for modern idealists, including those who make Thinking, Ideation, Reason, Ego-"I", etc. the OP. I suppose the distinction is whether we are making our concept of 'Thinking' the OP, by which we explain everything else, or the experience of Thinking, by which we progressively unfold the inner dimensions of everything else.

This trap is baked right into our ability to communicate, since by giving the OP a 'name' of any sort, it is implicit that we have been able to delimit it in some way from other categories of experience-activity. But this is only a problem if, at any point along the path of inquiry, we refuse to make the 'name' we are using into a symbol and humbly accept that our consciousness simply doesn't encompass whatever it is pointing to. In ancient times, this sort of inner analogical/symbolic thinking was not yet developed enough among the general population, so the path of least resistance (or least idolatry) was to simply avoid speaking the name of the OP (God) altogether.
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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On the radiating power of traditional prayer

The moral technique of prayer is generally a minefield for modern man. Probably everyone has experienced the inner conflicts that arise when the will-to-prayer is pursued - we feel silly, ashamed, guilty, anxious, fearful, uncertain, etc. What should we pray, who should we pray to, and why? These are not simple questions to answer, and certainly won't be answered by any sort of formal logical reasoning. Another conflict we may experience is that between 'personal' and 'impersonal' prayer - generally we feel the latter is too traditional, collective, and mechanical, so we need to personalize and customize our prayer in some way. Tomberg elucidates why that is not necessarily the wisest approach to take. Prayer can remain interiorized and alive without becoming too personal or straying too far from traditional formulae. As a side note, a great living example of that can be found in the book, The Way of a Pilgrim, in which an Orthodox Russian wanderer learns to literally 'pray without ceasing' (1 Thess. 5:17), day and night, waking and sleeping, by reciting the Jesus Prayer with the mind and and gradually interiorizing it to the heart (condensed: "Lord Jesus Christ... have mercy upon me."). The methods for this were picked up from his 'Starets' and by studying the Philokalia.

***

Prayer—which asks, thanks, worships and blesses—is the radiation, the breath and the warmth of the awakened heart: expressed in formulae of the articulated word, in the wordless inner sighing of the soul and, lastly, in the silence, both outward and inward, of the breathing of the soul immersed in the element of divine respiration and breathing in unison with it. Prayer has, therefore, different aspects: a “magical” aspect, i.e. prayer in formulae; a “gnostic” aspect, when it becomes inexpressible inner sighing; and, lastly, a “mystical” aspect, when it becomes the silence of union with the Divine. Thus, it is never in vain and without effect. Even a prayer-formula pronounced rapidly in a detached and impersonal manner has a magical effect, because the sum-total of ardour put into this formula in the past—by believers, saints and Angels—is evoked soley through the fact of pronouncing the prayer-formula. Every prayer-formula consecrated by use has a magical virtue, since it is collective. The voices of all those who have ever prayed it are evoked by it and join the voice of he who pronounces it with serious intention. This applies above all to all the formulae of liturgical prayer. Each phrase of the Roman Catholic Mass or Greek Orthodox Liturgy, for example, is a formula of divine sacred magic. There is nothing astonishing about this, since the Mass and the Liturgy consist only of the prayers of prophets, saints and Jesus Christ himself. But what is truly astonishing is that there are—and always have been—esotericists (such as Fabre d’Olivet, for example) who improvise cults, prayer-formulae, new “mantrams”, etc., as if something is gained through novelty! Perhaps they believe that the formulae taken from Holy Scripture or given by the saints are used up through usage and have lost their virtue? This would be a radical misunderstanding. Because usage does not at all deplete a prayer-formula, but rather, on the contrary, it adds to its virtue. For this reason it is also deplorable that certain Protestant churches have the custom of the minister or preacher improvising prayers in their divine service—probably believing that it is the personal which is more effective and not the common and collective tradition.

One should know, dear Unknown Friend, that one never prays alone, i.e. that there are always others—above, or in the past on earth—who pray with you in the same sense, in the same spirit and even in the same words. In praying, you always represent a visible or invisible community together with you. If you pray for healing, you represent all the sick and all healers, and the community of sick people and healers then prays with you. For this reason the Lord’s prayer is not addressed to “my Father in heaven”, but rather to “our Father in heaven”, and asks the Father to “give us this day our daily bread”, that he “forgive us our trespasses”, that he “leads us not into temptation” and that he “delivers us from evil”. Thus, whatever the particular intention of the one who prays the Lord’s prayer may be, it is in the name of the whole of mankind that he prays.

With respect to the prayer which is an inner, inexpressible sighing, that we have named “gnostic”—in Contrast to the “magical” prayer in formulae—it is a transformation of the psycho-physical breathing into prayer. Thus it can be made permanent—day and night, awake and asleep, without interruption, as long as respiration lasts. This type of prayer (which is practised above all in the Christian Orient) has a virtue that is more than magical: it transforms man into a mirror of the spiritual and divine world. For this reason we have named it “gnostic”—gnostic experience being the reflection of mystical experience.

Concerning mystical prayer properly said, i.e. the state of the human soul united with the Divine, where it no longer has even its own breathing, but breathes in and through the breath of divine respiration alone, it is the profound silence of all soul faculties—intelligence, imagination, memory and will—which, for example, St. John of the Cross describes and explains in his works. It is the consummation of love between the soul and God.

Anonymous . Meditations on the Tarot (pp. 618-619). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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AshvinP wrote: Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:36 am
With "content", I am basically referring to anything that belongs to the realm of phenomenal appearances, including anything we can conceive. Our entire conceptual life, including our entire sense of 'me', is a phenomenal appearance in this way, and should be taken as a symbol for unfamiliar/unknown spiritual activity to be progressively unveiled. Would you still say there can be 'non-referential content' under this expansive formulation?
I would. The concept (bit of World Content) that appears in my mind on reading the label "equilateral triangle" has no referent beyond itself, no hidden structure. It is related to other concepts (the rest of geometry) but is not the outer appearance of a deeper reality.

With music it is a bit (a lot, actually) more tricky. Roughly, I would say that when one hears, say, the second movement of Bach's double violin concerto, the ideational act that it produces (an emotion) is all there is to it -- it does not refer to anything hidden. Meanwhile if one encounters something like that emotion in one's life, say, melancholy due to some misfortune, that emotion is symbolic, referring to (among other things) the pure emotion one gets from hearing slow, minor-key music. With the difference being that one loves the emotional experience on hearing such music, while with the other, not so much. (I hope this makes sense, but as I said, tricky.)

Right, that is the ideal. But in practice, it seems the OP is the first thing to be explained away, in so far as it is felt to be known. This is one of the biggest traps for modern idealists, including those who make Thinking, Ideation, Reason, Ego-"I", etc. the OP. I suppose the distinction is whether we are making our concept of 'Thinking' the OP, by which we explain everything else, or the experience of Thinking, by which we progressively unfold the inner dimensions of everything else.

This trap is baked right into our ability to communicate, since by giving the OP a 'name' of any sort, it is implicit that we have been able to delimit it in some way from other categories of experience-activity. But this is only a problem if, at any point along the path of inquiry, we refuse to make the 'name' we are using into a symbol and humbly accept that our consciousness simply doesn't encompass whatever it is pointing to. In ancient times, this sort of inner analogical/symbolic thinking was not yet developed enough among the general population, so the path of least resistance (or least idolatry) was to simply avoid speaking the name of the OP (God) altogether.
What if one introduces the OP as:

"There is ideational activity (an undeniable fact). There is nothing else (an ontological claim)."

This is saying that all experiental activity is ideational (which, to be sure, one has to show, for example, showing that sense perception is ideational). And, since very little of what we experience seems to us to be ideational, it is clear it has depths we don't know.

I am not, by the way, claiming that such an ontology has any use once one moves beyond the intellectual soul. But it does seem to me to be useful in the meantime.
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AshvinP
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Re: Spiritual Insights from Valentin Tomberg

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ScottRoberts wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:24 am
AshvinP wrote: Sat Jul 08, 2023 1:36 am
With "content", I am basically referring to anything that belongs to the realm of phenomenal appearances, including anything we can conceive. Our entire conceptual life, including our entire sense of 'me', is a phenomenal appearance in this way, and should be taken as a symbol for unfamiliar/unknown spiritual activity to be progressively unveiled. Would you still say there can be 'non-referential content' under this expansive formulation?
I would. The concept (bit of World Content) that appears in my mind on reading the label "equilateral triangle" has no referent beyond itself, no hidden structure. It is related to other concepts (the rest of geometry) but is not the outer appearance of a deeper reality.

With music it is a bit (a lot, actually) more tricky. Roughly, I would say that when one hears, say, the second movement of Bach's double violin concerto, the ideational act that it produces (an emotion) is all there is to it -- it does not refer to anything hidden. Meanwhile if one encounters something like that emotion in one's life, say, melancholy due to some misfortune, that emotion is symbolic, referring to (among other things) the pure emotion one gets from hearing slow, minor-key music. With the difference being that one loves the emotional experience on hearing such music, while with the other, not so much. (I hope this makes sense, but as I said, tricky.)

I am having a hard time following the logic here. Surely our geometric concepts don't arrive within our consciousness from a lawless void. As you are probably aware, somewhat occult theology has traditionally considered the equilateral triangle as a symbol for the Holy Trinity itself. I wouldn't hold that to be an arbitrary symbolic association (and I don't think there is any such thing as arbitrary symbolic associations more generally). This is why ancient Hermeticism holds that the sensory-conceptual realm is a world of analogs to the unmanifest soul-spiritual, and vice versa.

From the esoteric scientific perspective, Steiner speaks about how our geometrical concepts arrive from spiritual (temporal) movements we actually experience during sleep or before birth. Likewise our waking musical experience is a remembrance of our experiencing the music of the spheres (the relational rhythms of the heavenly bodies) in sleeping consciousness. We tease apart pre-life and life, sleeping and waking, for intellectual convenience, but really they are superimposed domains of experience along which our consciousness rhythmically attenuates. So our waking consciousness dimly represents these subconscious (past) temporal movements of will as the spatial movement of our limbs.

Steiner wrote:It is usually thought that the ability to construct figures from geometrical lines comes from the head. But that is simply not the case. Man does not experience geometry through his head. You would never be able to think of an angle if you did not walk. It is because you experience the angle in your legs that you know something about it. The head merely looks on, perceives how the arms or the legs form angles. In geometry we actually experience our own will weaving through our limbs. Our limbs teach us geometry. It is only because we have become such creatures of abstraction that we are unaware of this and firmly believe that all geometrising goes on in the head. The head looks on. perceives how we walk, or dance, or whatever it may be. and then evolves the geometrical figures.
Scott wrote:
Right, that is the ideal. But in practice, it seems the OP is the first thing to be explained away, in so far as it is felt to be known. This is one of the biggest traps for modern idealists, including those who make Thinking, Ideation, Reason, Ego-"I", etc. the OP. I suppose the distinction is whether we are making our concept of 'Thinking' the OP, by which we explain everything else, or the experience of Thinking, by which we progressively unfold the inner dimensions of everything else.

This trap is baked right into our ability to communicate, since by giving the OP a 'name' of any sort, it is implicit that we have been able to delimit it in some way from other categories of experience-activity. But this is only a problem if, at any point along the path of inquiry, we refuse to make the 'name' we are using into a symbol and humbly accept that our consciousness simply doesn't encompass whatever it is pointing to. In ancient times, this sort of inner analogical/symbolic thinking was not yet developed enough among the general population, so the path of least resistance (or least idolatry) was to simply avoid speaking the name of the OP (God) altogether.
What if one introduces the OP as:

"There is ideational activity (an undeniable fact). There is nothing else (an ontological claim)."

This is saying that all experiental activity is ideational (which, to be sure, one has to show, for example, showing that sense perception is ideational). And, since very little of what we experience seems to us to be ideational, it is clear it has depths we don't know.

I am not, by the way, claiming that such an ontology has any use once one moves beyond the intellectual soul. But it does seem to me to be useful in the meantime.

The last part is exactly the issue. The internally coherent ontological system only has use if it serves as a bridge (or symbol) towards fulfilling higher intents. If we make use of it in the meantime, without also using it as such a bridge, then it becomes a closed loop for the intellectual soul and we are in some ways worse off than if we had not used it at all, because now we are languishing on the bridge (an abstract ontological system). The system becomes like deadweight that kills our forward momentum, or weighs down our ship as we continue to take on water due to the leaks that are still present in our lower soul life. Eventually the ship will sink unless we throw all those systems overboard. So we have to always be prepared to only treat the system as a symbol and also sacrifice our reliance on it once its purpose has been served. (you will notice how this is also the sacrificial way in which we proceed from imagination to inspiration and from the latter to intuition).

Put another way, the Ideational OP cannot be said to have interest in us forming coherent systems about its reality, but in us actually becoming its reality. The former only serves the final cause of the latter when the entire conceptual system is treated as a symbol.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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