Massimo Scaligero

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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AshvinP
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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Federica wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:38 pm
Cleric wrote:I’m not sure what he means by a space probe getting entangled/embroiled and unable to come back. Is it possible that the answer to that question and what Ashvin quoted could be from different times, where he may have revised his understanding?

I think he means, in definitely physical sense, that a spaceship would be met by a sort of sticky quicksand that would impede take off. Regarding the order of writing, the book from which Ashvin has quoted was published in 1964 - fourteen years before the lecture with the question about Mars.

I like how the space probe only gets embroiled but the space ship gets entangled and doesn't come back :)

The revised understanding makes sense, but it seems he was revising in the wrong direction for some reason.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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Federica wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:37 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:45 pm
MS wrote:[Reading a question] “Love for another person has to mean a commitment to love everything in them, transforming the heart into a power station of love - It’s a difficult endeavor, so difficult that one is tempted to give up.
Well, we follow the way of freedom. It means that we are free, including free to give up. In certain situations one is more free in surrender. Nonetheless, if one really is free, surrender is short-lived. One comes back to love, because freedom and love are the same impulse. Freedom is the act of the I. The I is a radiant force who does not need to refer to love in order to radiate onto itself, therefore the question is very simple: it’s necessary to be free. If one becomes liberated from all sorts of emotional or instinctual strangleholds, then the question of loving another being becomes clearer. With that new limpid vision, one can get back to the task of true love, not the parody of love. The love that we speak of, with reference to the theme of the Grail, is not yet in existence. But those who are capable of the supersensible experience of thinking can walk in that direction.

That is a very important point, because often it will seem like loving surrender to the Cosmic will is a hampering of our freedom, i.e. that it is just another form of enslavement like we experience when following the impulses of our own personal will, the will of other human beings, or the will of nature. But that is not the case. To use myself as an example, there have been plenty of times when I consciously chose to act according to lower impulses, but knowing full well that there would be attendant consequences in my stream of becoming. It is like I was saying, “I know that I will have to compensate for this action in the near future, or at the latest after death, and I am willing to endure all the attendant suffering necessary to effect that compensation.” In this way, we begin to realize that every free act which chooses to follow lower impulses will condition us in a way that deprives our future freedom since we will be constrained into certain pathways of experience necessary for the compensation of that act. There is already great freedom attained through the inner understanding of these things, or as MS says, "in certain situations one is more free in surrender" - we won't be able to resist all lower impulses, but when we encounter them in full consciousness and free exchange, with a sense of obligation to make good on their effects, the seeds of future freedom from such impulses are being planted. And when we realize that actions that concern not only ourselves but also our fellow beings are even more conditioning of our experiential stream, to the extent they negatively influence the potential development of those beings, and that the line between deeds which concern only us and those which concern others is not so easy to establish, we are more inclined to align ourselves with loving actions towards ourselves and others that decondition us from future experiential constraints. That may seem egotistical to some extent and it is at first, because we are thinking about our own potential for freedom to begin with, but then we realize our freedom is necessarily bound up with the freedom of our fellow beings as well, since we are essentially a unified karmic organism. And we realize that we are in no position to help others when we remain just as unfree as they are, and if we seek only freedom for our personal benefit, we are still not aligned with the truth of the "I" and therefore not actually free.

Ashvin,

Thanks for this perspective! A note of detail first: I hope I didn't mischievously translate "surrender". The meaning in the lecture isn't surrender as abandonment to instincts, but surrender as renunciation, as staying away from something that appears too difficult - in that example, loving another person completely. So it's surrender to the discouragement elicited by a 'titanic' task. Maybe this was already clear, but sorry if "surrender" is not the best word. I am not sure.

But regarding your point on becoming conscious of the inevitable consequences of our acts of surrendering to instincts: I do follow that it's a positive step towards freedom when we at least don't do it lightly and mindlessly. But I feel there's a somewhat dangerous aspect to what you describe, that I would maybe call a sort of 'karmic negotiation'? Or maybe I have not understood you well. But if one indulges in something one considers wrongful, not by lack of strength or knowledge, but by conscious agreement with karma, it seems to me it's the beginning of the idea of Faust? And another question that comes to mind: isn't the possibility of forgiveness lost in that case, if we fail by calculation? Maybe I misinterpreted, or maybe your point is about not falling prey to illusions. Now, by all means, I am not saying that I don't have this problem, that I have perfect discipline, and perfect knowledge of what I should do. That would be very far from the truth. But it never occurred to me, when I'm doing something, or omitting something, by weakness, laziness, undecidedness and similar, that I could negotiate with the devil! :) To the extent that I am aware of the problem, I would not be able to feel that the thing is settled, or could have been settled. It rather feels like an open account that is pending, out of balance.

I realize the question is less straightforward than it seems, and maybe what I describe amounts to a bigger lack of freedom, because, you could say, there is no good in a vague feeling of guilt that only depends on ignorance of the amount that would close the account. Ultimately the question is: should we have an ideal of perfection, even when we are a world apart from it, or is it best to remain reasonable, discover the price of everything, and keep our books in as orderly a manner as we can?
Federica,

It seems to me that is essentially equivalent because when we surrender from higher ideals we are necessarily surrendering to lower impulses. Instead of taking on a sacrificial task we choose indolence instead. That is basically what I had in mind when referring to myself as well.

I see what you’re saying with respect to the karmic negotiation. It certainly isn’t done in full knowledge because as Scaligero said, as our knowledge and freedom grows, the self-surrender is short-lived. That is because we begin to realize how much future freedom the self-surrender is actually costing us. We could call this a 'calculation' of sorts but it is not done mechanically or intellectually, rather it is mostly done intuitively. We gain an intuitive sense of how certain decisions are feeding back into our stream of becoming and conditioning that stream, to the extent we decide for lower impulses, or deconditioning it, to the extent we decide for higher ideals. In other words, we are much more oriented towards future potentials and, at the same time, that orientation is an awakening to how our own future potential is bound up with the future potential of humanity and the Earth as well.

We certainly don’t feel that we have settled the matter simply by being conscious that we will have to settle the matter. It should be felt that it is an open account that is pending. That consciousness is only the first step into realizing how, if left to only our own powers, we would never be able to actually settle the karmic debt. We would drown in the debt because every lower impulsive act generates more conditioning across various layers of existence than we can compensate for, especially when we factor in that the consequences ripple out into our whole karmic organism i.e. humanity and the Earth as a whole. So that is where forgiveness, love, humility, faith, and the overall Christ ideals are understood in their more inner nature, or spiritual scientific nature. That is when we experience how faith and freedom, morality and truth, spiral together on the ascending cognitive path. Of course, these are all only initial stages and there is a much deeper reality to how Grace and Karma work together so that all debts are mysteriously balanced by the end of Earth evolution.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:36 pm
Federica wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:38 pm
Cleric wrote:I’m not sure what he means by a space probe getting entangled/embroiled and unable to come back. Is it possible that the answer to that question and what Ashvin quoted could be from different times, where he may have revised his understanding?

I think he means, in definitely physical sense, that a spaceship would be met by a sort of sticky quicksand that would impede take off. Regarding the order of writing, the book from which Ashvin has quoted was published in 1964 - fourteen years before the lecture with the question about Mars.

I like how the space probe only gets embroiled but the space ship gets entangled and doesn't come back :)

The revised understanding makes sense, but it seems he was revising in the wrong direction for some reason.

Ashvin,

to be very precise, the verb MS uses for probes and spaceships is the same. It literally means "to get stuck in viscosity, in something viscous". He literally says, of the probes, that they "land and get stuck in viscosity", and of the spaceships, that if they were to send their spaceships, "they would not return, they would get stuck in viscosity and stay there", which I translated:

"...the space probes land and get embroiled. If they were to send spaceships, they wouldn’t come back, they would get entangled.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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Federica wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:22 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:36 pm
Federica wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:38 pm


I think he means, in definitely physical sense, that a spaceship would be met by a sort of sticky quicksand that would impede take off. Regarding the order of writing, the book from which Ashvin has quoted was published in 1964 - fourteen years before the lecture with the question about Mars.

I like how the space probe only gets embroiled but the space ship gets entangled and doesn't come back :)

The revised understanding makes sense, but it seems he was revising in the wrong direction for some reason.

Ashvin,

to be very precise, the verb MS uses for probes and spaceships is the same. It literally means "to get stuck in viscosity, in something viscous". He literally says, of the probes, that they "land and get stuck in viscosity", and of the spaceships, that if they were to send their spaceships, "they would not return, they would get stuck in viscosity and stay there", which I translated:

"...the space probes land and get embroiled. If they were to send spaceships, they wouldn’t come back, they would get entangled.

Ah man, I really wish they had been different verbs, the quote is so much better the way you translated it : ) it sounded like the space probes could make it back but not the ships. I am overall pretty confused as to what or how MS was thinking in that context.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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AshvinP wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:42 am
Federica wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:22 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:36 pm


I like how the space probe only gets embroiled but the space ship gets entangled and doesn't come back :)

The revised understanding makes sense, but it seems he was revising in the wrong direction for some reason.

Ashvin,

to be very precise, the verb MS uses for probes and spaceships is the same. It literally means "to get stuck in viscosity, in something viscous". He literally says, of the probes, that they "land and get stuck in viscosity", and of the spaceships, that if they were to send their spaceships, "they would not return, they would get stuck in viscosity and stay there", which I translated:

"...the space probes land and get embroiled. If they were to send spaceships, they wouldn’t come back, they would get entangled.

Ah man, I really wish they had been different verbs, the quote is so much better the way you translated it : ) it sounded like the space probes could make it back but not the ships. I am overall pretty confused as to what or how MS was thinking in that context.


Ashvin,

I see. :) To clarify, I didn’t translate the sentence as I did to embellish it, or to give it better sense, based on what I believe it should mean. I try to be very careful with that, and always stay away from adding meaning, and from leaning toward one side or the other, when the words sound ambiguous. This being said, I have to make continuous small choices, and do my best to make the meaning sensical in a language that, I believe, is more logical and con-sequestial.

The reason I have translated the same verb as “embroiled” in one case and "entangled" in the other, is because MS says that the spaceships “would get stuck in viscosity and stay there”. The point is, these are not two separate actions, it’s one unitary action, that gets expressed more imaginatively, by juxtaposing two verbs, but it’s as if they were one, so I reported their synthesis. The first verb, about probes, attracts repetition in the second expression, which is then completed, refined by an extra piece of meaning. This is common in spoken Italian, especially when spoken by someone like Scaligero, who to my ear really speaks like a Roman (someone who comes from Rome) that is, in a very vivid, intense, and sort of emphatic way, compared to how we speak in Northern Italy. This helps me because I can notice all those nuances well. Maybe in this particular example it doesn't really show, but if I translated everything word for word, super literally from spoken Roman Italian to written English, it would be difficult to follow :D

Just to say that I do my best not to confuse you with arbitrary choices. My guess on "what or how MS was thinking in that context", is that he was focused on the physical level (Ahrimanic, as he said). He said that just above, he was referring to the mineral shadow of Mars. And my impression is, he was also a tiny tiny bit irritated that the words of Steiner were being questioned. The effect of Mars' crust on a spaceship is slightly hyperbolized, because there is a crew in it, and the effect is naturally more dramatic. The example itself of a spaceship with a crew in it, is brought to make the idea of viscosity more real. A space probe… we care less about it. That is my sense.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:48 pm Federica,

I will need to consider your various points more carefully before formulating a response. For now, I just want to make a brief note on how I understand the 'occult sense of Earth'. I think the simplest way to approach this would be to identify Earth in the occult sense as a communal state of consciousness in which inhabitants become aware of their willing being in relation to other beings (or what is normally understood as the ‘outer world’) at the level of the mineral shadow. As long as we remain at this stage of self-awareness and other-awareness, we are still on Earth or carrying the Earth with us wherever we imagine we are “going”. There is, of course, still some relation between the perceptual constellations we experience and the underlying ideal realities they symbolize, but the relation is not very dependent on spatial distances. The latter only reflect back to us our own limitations of thinking-will. That is the way I think about it right now, at least. Scaligero also addresses this aspect in one of his books. I am interested to hear what you think.

Nevertheless, we think we can master space by moving from place to place while inevitably always bearing the same limit. Scientific knowledge and mathematical logic reassure us of this, as they both create a new metaphysics out of the impotency to cognize the limit. We consider it quite an accomplishment to overcome given distances with greater speed, namely, by reinforcing the illusion that space is conquerable and that earthly limits can be overcome via machines, which are themselves the typical expression of our subjection to such limits. These limits can be overcome only where they are grasped and cognized. For the only extraterrestrial space toward which we can journey is that which requires the use of a carefully encapsulated missile in which all necessary conditions for our earthly existence are reproduced. And even so, Earth is, in effect, never left behind. This is also the case with the nervous system, whose life can exist only upon the Earth's surface and whose mediation gives rise to the formation of nature's abstract laws. The validity of such laws diminishes as we gradually distance ourselves from Earth. To become distant from Earth is to experience what can be gathered beyond the mediation of this nervous system. But this would effectively be to realize thought's autonomy from intellectualism, to realize an independence from sensory conditions that enables our inner being to explore other worlds and to perceive the life unknown to us on Earth. Earth is still unknown to those who presumably probe the cosmos. The life that gives rise on Earth to the existence of plants, animals, and human beings is a mystery to them. The mystery that they seek “spatially” is merely the life on Earth that arrives from the extraterrestrial cosmos, a cosmos that cannot be reached unless we know how to encounter it in its various earthly forms.

Scaligero, Massimo. The Secrets of Space and Time (pp. 22-23). Lindisfarne Books. Kindle Edition.
Ashvin,

Thanks for bringing attention to the Earth. Your view, and the quote, prompt useful, non-local thinking exercises.
"I am interested to hear what you think". Well, I have to think some more first. I got a bit lucky with my Mars theory, I believe :)
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

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This lecture [1] by MS is close in time to the previous one. It precedes it by a few days. The themes:


- The use of brutal force
- Beings without an I
- Meditation as sacrifice
- The Archangel as Spirit of a Nation and the Solar Hero
- The nature of sacrifice
- The force of Logos beyond any paths


Rome, March 11, 1978



[Reading a question] “A while ago, I stepped in with great energy in defense of someone who was about to succumb to the bullying of many. Is it right to intervene in this way? Or was it an undue interference in the karma of another human being? And is it possible to forcefully restore justice?
There is only one force, it is the moral force. When we become able to use that force, the opportunity to use brutal force is taken away from us. If someone is drawn to brutal force, it is a sign that one is still connected in thinking - albeit maybe in subtle ways - with that sphere where questions are settled with the use of beating, with duress, with pushing and shoving, with tormenting… and so on. This way doesn't help anyone. Of course, if we notice that someone is in danger, and if we ourselves run a danger by helping the person, we have to face that danger. Nonetheless, since I had experiences of this kind in the past - I have really been able to clarify these relations. If one thinks that it’s possible to defend someone in a forceful way, or by beating, that will happen to him. On the contrary, if the person considers the moral force fundamental, the opportunity to step in with this moral force could present itself to him. Notice, it is possible that one person alone stops the arrogance of the many. With an energetic word, it is possible to muzzle 20 people. Naturally, this topic is multifaceted, it can have various contents. One has to understand what force is, to start with. The link with karma is always present, but it’s our own karma. If for example, one continually thinks: “That one, I’d hit him in the head”, it means there is a persistent link to that thought. To break free from it, perhaps he will need to go through a serious trial, until finally one acquires the certainty that it’s possible to step in with moral force, a force that dominates the situation. We don’t have time now, but I could provide many examples of that.

We hear that a child is currently alive who seemingly was born outside of the natural course of the events of procreation, in the act of conception itself. If this was true, how could such an unnatural event be related to the natural cosmic forces? What spiritual entity would this new human being have? And what reincarnation could the child be or represent?
Nothing. This being wouldn’t have an I. Instead of the I, any Ahrimanic or Luciferic entity whatsoever would utilize the sheaths. In any case there is no need to get upset, because this is already happening. We are going more and more towards a time where there are beings who don’t have the I. Clearly, the problem of how to treat these beings arises. The problem is also to understand that these beings have a function, a provoking function. Thus the wise man never takes seriously beings in which the I is not present. There are definitely beings who do not have an I, and new ones will be born, there will be many of them, inhabited by Ahrimanic entities. However, when for example beings who do have an I are caught in obsessive patterns, it’s as if the I wasn't there. Therefore, we need to appeal with all our forces to everything that spiritual science can tell us. It’s a matter of operating through the forces of knowledge, never coming to states of aversion, or classification of beings, so as to cut them off from human society. Instead, it’s a matter of understanding what evil we are talking about, and how it can be solved. Indeed, this task is already in the process of being fulfilled by spiritual science.

What is the relation - if there is a relation - between a meditation in which this or that figure encourages us to profoundly meditate on this or that serious problem, and our own meditation, our own sacrifice?
If I understand the question, the answer is simple. Meditation is only worthwhile if it takes on an energy that can overcome the limit of subjectivity. So, any attitude, or demand of this type, any profound meditation, is essentially an appeal to the highest level of energy. But we need to understand that the highest level of energy is nothing titanic. Only when we comprehend this well, can we understand the true meaning of sacrifice, because the highest level of energy is developed when one is able to extract oneself from the decadent being we identify ourselves with, so as to come to an offering, a sacrifice. Meditation in its essence truly is a sacrifice. But because this question cannot be treated in a few words, we will now try to develop this theme through the other questions.

Life is sacred in each of its multifaceted aspects, nonetheless we are tasked with holding Christ in it. Why?
Here we have a chance to continue the discussion we have started about profound meditation and sacrifice. We are in a moment in time when the sacrifice of meditation is requested by the spiritual world, with the purpose of helping the collective destiny, the destiny of the nation we belong to, in connection with other people as well. Therefore, when we say that someone is a great Italian, the spiritual meaning has to be translated in the following terms; a great Italian can be a poet, a hero, an inventor, but in spiritual sense, we can say that a great Italian is the one who enables the national spiritual entity - an Archangel - to read in his soul the needs of the people he belongs to. Tradition teaches us that each of us has a guardian Angel, a sort of deputy-I. This Angel however is “laid off” as soon as one starts to incorporate the I, in which case this laid off Angel can offer a more powerful help than it could when it was bound to our destiny. As there is a guardian Angel for the individual, in the same way, there is an Archangel for a nation. Every nation has its Archangel, and things go wrong for a nation when the Archangel has lost connection and is prevented from giving the forces. The Archangel can only infuse force if there are beings who establish a relationship, offering the Archangel a vision, so to say, in order for the requested forces to inflow. Whoever attains this level is a true helper - a self helper, and a helper for his nation. In occult terms, this being was called in ancient times the Solar Hero. The Solar Hero was the sixth level of initiation, in line with the possibility for the initiate to attain the sphere of the Sun, and to receive from it the forces to be employed on Earth. This pertains to ancient initiation. Indeed, the expression “Solar Hero” is present in the various traditions. Here we can start addressing the question from our friend. The Spirit of the Sun is transferred to the Earth and the Solar Hero is the one who seeks the Sun principle on Earth. We can say that the middle ground between what is ancient and what is new is the Pentecost, because at Pentecost the twelve were pervaded by the Sun Spirit, by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit who was born from the sacrifice of the Being of the Solar Logos.

The present day position of the initiate requires that the Solar Hero is the one who recovers the relationship with the Logos, through the forces of meditation and sacrifice. So you see the connection with what our friend was asking at the beginning. This endeavor restores the grade of Solar hero and corresponds with the passing of the threshold. Some of us can therefore understand what difficulties they have to endure in these times, if they want to be of help to the human collective and to the destiny of their nation. There is a spiritual being of the hierarchy of the Archangels who is in need of such beings, otherwise it cannot act. Or, it can, but only by means of karma, that is, by the crudest means. Now let’s go back to the first question: “Can we avoid the way of violence, the brutal way, through the real force, that is, the force of Spirit?” The force of Spirit is able to operate much better than any weapons. So, the idea of the Solar hero is alive, and the spiritual world is waiting for beings to appear who are able to conceive an enterprise of this kind.

Here we can attach this question: “How to connect the events of our life with the Logos?” and this one too: “Hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done. What is the thought that connects this invocation with the miracle of Resurrection?
We can say that this indeed is realized through the forces of Resurrection, because “to hallow Thy Name” means to enliven the principle through living thinking, in a sphere where the Luciferic intelligence is overcome through the solar powers of thinking. Through powerful thinking, through the highest energy of thinking, man becomes free in the head from the Luciferic deception, the Ahrimanic deception, and that’s when he starts to hallow the name of the Lord, because he can consecrate, dedicate his thinking. In this manner, the way to the heart is opened, the way to the true domain of the Divine. Thy Kingdom come: the Kingdom is the kingdom of the median system, the kingdom of the heart. In this way we understand how the power of Logos is transferred to the will. So: Manas, Buddhi, Atman. That is, once the Name is hallowed, we can be worthy of accessing the Kingdom, because the Kingdom asserts itself in us through the system of rhythm, so that the will is consecrated. Today, this possibility is realizable through the idea of Solar heroicity, that is the possibility to realize what the ancient initiate could attain by escaping the Earth and immersing himself in the Solar domain. Today, this domain is to be found on Earth.

It remains to say what sacrifice consists of. Sacrifice is imitation of the divine, because all that is gifted to man, the entire creation in the universe, all that man can make use of, comes from the sacrifice of God. How? We can use an image. Let’s imagine a powerful lord who possesses lands, who is a just lord, one who puts himself in the service of others, someone who holds together all the beings who work the land. Let’s imagine that these peasants feel the need to bring him gifts, as a sign of their loyalty, and so they do a minimal sacrifice to give him the highest thing they are able to give. And let’s imagine that the lord does not accept those gifts. Better said, he accepts them, but not for himself. He says: “There are peasants who are less provided than you are, thus I will give these gifts to them. So, you gifted me, but the gift will only find its right place if I pass it in turn to those who stand lower. Notice, this is simply an image I use to express something that is terribly metaphysical. If you consider occult science, if you understand how the forces of the Sun have reconquered the absolutely transcendent warmth coming from Saturn, then you will discover this really mysterious event: at some point, the Spirits of Wisdom make a sacrifice, that they offer to the higher hierarchies, the first hierarchies, that is the Thrones and the Cherubs. This sacrifice ascends and is embraced by these Cherubs and Thrones. But what is really embraced is the renunciation, which means to transfer the gift of this sacrifice to beings who are ascending the ladder of the hierarchies.
In this way this sacrifice of the Spirits of Wisdom is poured in the Archangels, who accept, and rejoy, and acquire endless force. And as soon as the Archangels are charged by the sacrifice of the Spirits of Wisdom, they explode in an act of love from which the light of the Sun is born - which is not the physical light, of course. So, that Light is a Power of Love. It is born in the Sun, as the consequence of the sacrifice of the Spirits of Wisdom.

If you read the pages our Doctor has written, you will find that he sometimes recommends the meditation: “In light, wisdom flows”. Now, it’s not that we are supposed to analyze these images, Woe if we do, we would then kill them. Still, knowing certain behind-the-scenes is a power system that builds up in us, and enables us to intensely experience the content of meditation. In this way we can comprehend the whole creation, the birth of space and, in the sphere of Saturn, the birth of warmth, that is the sacrifice of the Thrones, as narrated by our Doctor. Then the sacrifice goes on, until the sacrifice culminates with Christ. Everything that is occult history of the Earth is lived through imaginations. You see, all the ancient world, all the pre-Christian traditions, are nourished by a vision that is naturally initiatic. It is a power of vision in movement, transferred from school to school, from initiate to disciple, and articulated through this etheric power of the mission. Having time, it would be possible to interpret all the initiatic movements of the East and of the West in this way, because this vision is connected with the intuition of sacrifice, except that it doesn’t have the power to reproduce it on Earth. This terrorized all spiritual seekers, who tasked themselves with escaping the Earth, ending reincarnation on Earth, finding a way to cut ties with Earth, so as to avoid the Earthly flows. In all the Yoga-asanas, starting from Padmasana, the Yogi has the shrewdness not to give hold to the currents emanating from the Earth, because they are Ahrimanic currents, and they knew that, if these Ahrimanic currents prevail, they would be forced to face the demon of the Earth. And they lacked that strength. But they didn’t know that the coming of the one who would have the force to dominate Ahriman was being prepared, and that He would accomplish the highest divine sacrifice, the highest offering to man, in order for man to recover his own being.

This is naturally a difficult theme to treat briefly. But, in essence, what does that mean? What is the difference between the various forms of initiations and the situation after the birth of the I? Notice, the I was born in a barbaric manner, because it was born as materialistic I, it was born in a really somber and dangerous way. Nevertheless, whoever truly follows the occult needs to know what lies behind all that. The destiny of Man is at stake. All the false elements in the various occultisms that are told and handed down can paralyze the path of man by making man either an agent of Lucifer, or an agent Ahriman. An agent of Ahriman is able to see by magical means, because Ahriman is a powerful magician, a bestower of magical powers, and when he finds his agents, he also bestows them with a power of will having the same intensity as a force of nature. We, from our side, have to gain the will crumb by crumb, little by little, through formidable efforts, but the one who follows Ahrimanic currents, and is indulgent with morality, receives formidable magical forces. The problem is, it’s a pact. A pact is signed, and then one is in big trouble, if one wants to be free. However, a pact of this sort cannot have anything to do with those who follow the ways of the spirit with a pure heart. Those can possibly err, but erring in good faith, they will always find the way again. On the other hand, we have to say that there are series of beings - here we are considering human groups, not initiates - who, mechanized, mentally sclerotized by the materialistic ideologies, get into the habit of becoming instruments, they are beings at the service of Ahriman, because for them in life there is nothing else than terrestriality, there is no possibility whatsoever to see anything beyond. These beings, after death, don’t go to the spiritual world, they remain attached to the Earth. We can say that they die in half. Something happens, a sort of initial immortality, connected with Ahriman’s command on Earth. This group has already started to appear. There are beings who, after death, don't do the post mortem journey described not only in the Egyptian book of the dead, the one of [----], but also in the Occult Science of Steiner. They remain in the halo of the Earth, and they tend to reincarnate. These are the beings who lose the I. This is why it is possible to produce a child in vitro. Absolutely, we will certainly come to that. Of course, let’s look at Goethe’s homunculus. Goethe had foreseen that. In this situation, we have to understand what the era of redemption means, because the world is cut in half. This used to much sadden my friend Evola. My friend Evola was a great admirer of Bachofen. Evola has raised awareness of the work of Bachofen in Italy, which is a great work. Nevertheless he has always carefully omitted to say that Bachofen, like Hegel, used to argue that the history of man was divided in two, and that Christ represents the new history of Earth. Evola was really agreeable, because he was always pulling everyone’s leg, he always did as he pleased. He used to present authors in the way he personally liked. And he presented Bachofen in a way that one would ignore his marvelous Christianism. And his statement - that Steiner later developed and clarified - that Christ is at the center of human evolution, really is discovered by whoeve truly follows the ways of the Spirit. See, one can discover that in a truly wonderful way, even if one does not know Steiner, even if one knows nothing about Christ, even if one follows a pagan way. If one really searches, one comes to the understanding that the time of force has begun. The time of imaginations is over. Hence, the time of apparitions is over, and so is the time of escapes, and ecstasies… the time of samadhi, the time of ruptures. This is the time in which man can finally incarnate the force.

In the East, there is a very interesting figure called Aurobindo. In essence, he looked at the Christ and said: “Christ, and all that, very well, but I am in contact with a force.” and it’s very interesting how he describes this force. He says, it’s a force that has to transform the matter of the Earth, and this force has just sprung into action, right now. Whoever knows how things stand, understands what he’s talking about. There is another very sympathetic figure - Ramana Maharshi. He says that we are searching for the I. We have it, and we have to grasp that we can realize everything, if we realize the I. In essence he has summarized all the Eastern methods, including the monistic, Islamic ways. He has summarized all those ways in a quest for the I through the question of thinking. How not to notice that there’s something new in the East as well?

So these questions enable me to further indicate the meaning of a way that searches for the Logos through living thinking. In essence, it’s a way where one feels that something decisive, something that really has never had anything to do with initiation, is about to happen. As I said, even if one doesn’t know Steiner, the Gospels, or Christianism, provided that one really operates this liberation of thinking, the way will be found. Many years ago, I came to know… I can say that, he was a dentist - though he wasn't even officially qualified as a dentist - and he explained to me that he had an inner method. I had noticed he had a profound calmness, he had something angelic in him. He was an old man, about 60 years old. He had something of the quality of a saint, and he was fantastic as a dentist also. We started talking, and he told me that he had started suffering from insomnia, but because of diabetes and other conditions, he couldn't take remedies for insomnia. So he was in a bad position and decided to study in himself the process by which insomnia arises. He soon realized it was arising from thoughts that, by themselves, were tyrannizing in the brain, making it impossible for him to melt into sleep. So he started to operate on those thoughts, by dampening one thought, and then another one, and another one, finally being able to enter sleep. He ended up appreciating the activity, and decided to push it further. In this way he realized that as long as he was able to maintain this neutrality of rational thought, a sort of light of thought would appear, and pervade him. After two minutes of this activity he would be more rested than after a full night of sleep. He continued this practice. He told me: “It’s exactly as you explain it, I am connected with a marvelous force that is always there to help me. But I am afraid of this force.” Then I told him a few things. So, this being, a self-healer, with no esoteric culture, through such a simple operation had started to understand that the force of thinking is a divine current. If he had turned to really look at it, he would have discovered the Lord. And exactly in that circumstance, he could have said: “Hallowed be Thy Name”, and then also: “Thy Kingdom come”, and then: “Thy will be done”.

I believe I have answered the question. Let’s conclude with “How to connect the events of our life with the Logos?
By extinguishing any fear. It is necessary to come not to fear anything anymore. Then one finds connection with the Logos. Fear takes us away from Logos, because it does not belong to us. The I cannot fear. Now, we can definitely feel fear - who doesn’t? - but we also have to immediately say “It doesn’t belong to me, it is not part of my spirit, it is foreign to my spirit, it is contrary to the spirit, I have to reject it”. These are trials that face us, but we have to maintain this certainly, that whoever faces a trial is sacred, and the power of spirit will assist him. Absolutely everyone who goes through a trial is surrounded by those assisting beings who are ready to help him. The thing is that he has to remember that, and not to forego the help.
We have mentioned that intensity and energy are necessary, but we can’t close this discussion without saying that everything done with less than the highest level of energy doesn’t reach through, doesn’t come to honor’s bowers. “By toil and travel, not by sitting still In pleasure’s lap, we come to honor’s bowers” This is Dante. In this verse there is a small intuition of that [it is actually Torquato Tasso, in the poem "Jerusalem Delivered"].
In this way, after this little digression, we are back to the theme we have begun with, because the highest level of energy is the gift of oneself, that is, sacrifice. And we can always learn by observing, if possible, the gifts of the gods.

***

[1] Thanks to Piero Cammerinesi for making this recording freely available to the public at Libero Pensare.
.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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AshvinP
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 2:41 pm
AshvinP wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:42 am
Federica wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:22 pm


Ashvin,

to be very precise, the verb MS uses for probes and spaceships is the same. It literally means "to get stuck in viscosity, in something viscous". He literally says, of the probes, that they "land and get stuck in viscosity", and of the spaceships, that if they were to send their spaceships, "they would not return, they would get stuck in viscosity and stay there", which I translated:

"...the space probes land and get embroiled. If they were to send spaceships, they wouldn’t come back, they would get entangled.

Ah man, I really wish they had been different verbs, the quote is so much better the way you translated it : ) it sounded like the space probes could make it back but not the ships. I am overall pretty confused as to what or how MS was thinking in that context.


Ashvin,

I see. :) To clarify, I didn’t translate the sentence as I did to embellish it, or to give it better sense, based on what I believe it should mean. I try to be very careful with that, and always stay away from adding meaning, and from leaning toward one side or the other, when the words sound ambiguous. This being said, I have to make continuous small choices, and do my best to make the meaning sensical in a language that, I believe, is more logical and con-sequestial.

The reason I have translated the same verb as “embroiled” in one case and "entangled" in the other, is because MS says that the spaceships “would get stuck in viscosity and stay there”. The point is, these are not two separate actions, it’s one unitary action, that gets expressed more imaginatively, by juxtaposing two verbs, but it’s as if they were one, so I reported their synthesis. The first verb, about probes, attracts repetition in the second expression, which is then completed, refined by an extra piece of meaning. This is common in spoken Italian, especially when spoken by someone like Scaligero, who to my ear really speaks like a Roman (someone who comes from Rome) that is, in a very vivid, intense, and sort of emphatic way, compared to how we speak in Northern Italy. This helps me because I can notice all those nuances well. Maybe in this particular example it doesn't really show, but if I translated everything word for word, super literally from spoken Roman Italian to written English, it would be difficult to follow :D

Just to say that I do my best not to confuse you with arbitrary choices.

Federica,

Thanks for this clarification. Yes, I realize you are trying your best to stick with the intended meaning and I know it isn't an easy task, even for someone familiar with the language. I really appreciate your efforts to bring these lectures and Q&A sessions to us!

My guess on "what or how MS was thinking in that context", is that he was focused on the physical level (Ahrimanic, as he said). He said that just above, he was referring to the mineral shadow of Mars. And my impression is, he was also a tiny tiny bit irritated that the words of Steiner were being questioned. The effect of Mars' crust on a spaceship is slightly hyperbolized, because there is a crew in it, and the effect is naturally more dramatic. The example itself of a spaceship with a crew in it, is brought to make the idea of viscosity more real. A space probe… we care less about it. That is my sense.

Right, but my confusion is to why people like Steiner and MS with such great spiritual understanding of spacetime as an intellectual construct would still feel like the spiritual spectrum can be found by humans traveling certain distances in space either towards the heavens or into the atmosphere or core of planets and stars. I suppose Cleric’s answer is really the best one, and in a sense they were underestimating the ability of the intellect to spread itself across infinite spatial directions without completely collapsing and giving way to the underlying spiritual powers at work. In other words, they felt that the psychic transformation from simply venturing out into such unknown territories, which is surely a significant influence, would compromise the intellect’s sensory integrity (and it probably does to some extent). But perhaps the intellect is much more Ahrimanically fortified from such psychic influences than they even imagined possible at that time. Although at the time MS gave that lecture, the US had already landed on the Moon and come back (which btw India just did a few days ago to great celebration, as a sign that the intellect continues to pride itself on ‘conquering’ space, even returning to the same spaces over and over again for the pride of nations/ethnicity, rather than seeking inner transformation). I suppose the occult constitution of the Moon is different from that of Mars, insofar as the former is even more hardened than the Earth in its constitution while the latter is much less hardened, as you mentioned. Maybe that's why MS felt the Mars trip, unlike the Moon, would lead to complete entanglement.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Güney27
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Güney27 »

Federica wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 4:38 pm This lecture by MS is close in time to the previous one. It precedes it by a few days. The themes:


- The use of brutal force
- Beings without an I
- Meditation as sacrifice
- The Archangel as Spirit of a Nation and the Solar Hero
- The nature of sacrifice
- The force of Logos beyond any paths


Rome, March 11, 1978



[Reading a question] “A while ago, I stepped in with great energy in defense of someone who was about to succumb to the bullying of many. Is it right to intervene in this way? Or was it an undue interference in the karma of another human being? And is it possible to forcefully restore justice?
There is only one force, it is the moral force. When we become able to use that force, the opportunity to use brutal force is taken away from us. If someone is drawn to brutal force, it is a sign that one is still connected in thinking - albeit maybe in subtle ways - with that sphere where questions are settled with the use of beating, with duress, with pushing and shoving, with tormenting… and so on. This way doesn't help anyone. Of course, if we notice that someone is in danger, and if we ourselves run a danger by helping the person, we have to face that danger. Nonetheless, since I had experiences of this kind in the past - I have really been able to clarify these relations. If one thinks that it’s possible to defend someone in a forceful way, or by beating, that will happen to him. On the contrary, if the person considers the moral force fundamental, the opportunity to step in with this moral force could present itself to him. Notice, it is possible that one person alone stops the arrogance of the many. With an energetic word, it is possible to muzzle 20 people. Naturally, this topic is multifaceted, it can have various contents. One has to understand what force is, to start with. The link with karma is always present, but it’s our own karma. If for example, one continually thinks: “That one, I’d hit him in the head”, it means there is a persistent link to that thought. To break free from it, perhaps he will need to go through a serious trial, until finally one acquires the certainty that it’s possible to step in with moral force, a force that dominates the situation. We don’t have time now, but I could provide many examples of that.

We hear that a child is currently alive who seemingly was born outside of the natural course of the events of procreation, in the act of conception itself. If this was true, how could such an unnatural event be related to the natural cosmic forces? What spiritual entity would this new human being have? And what reincarnation could the child be or represent?
Nothing. This being wouldn’t have an I. Instead of the I, any Ahrimanic or Luciferic entity whatsoever would utilize the sheaths. In any case there is no need to get upset, because this is already happening. We are going more and more towards a time where there are beings who don’t have the I. Clearly, the problem of how to treat these beings arises. The problem is also to understand that these beings have a function, a provoking function. Thus the wise man never takes seriously beings in which the I is not present. There are definitely beings who do not have an I, and new ones will be born, there will be many of them, inhabited by Ahrimanic entities. However, when for example beings who do have an I are caught in obsessive patterns, it’s as if the I wasn't there. Therefore, we need to appeal with all our forces to everything that spiritual science can tell us. It’s a matter of operating through the forces of knowledge, never coming to states of aversion, or classification of beings, so as to cut them off from human society. Instead, it’s a matter of understanding what evil we are talking about, and how it can be solved. Indeed, this task is already in the process of being fulfilled by spiritual science.

What is the relation - if there is a relation - between a meditation in which this or that figure encourages us to profoundly meditate on this or that serious problem, and our own meditation, our own sacrifice?
If I understand the question, the answer is simple. Meditation is only worthwhile if it takes on an energy that can overcome the limit of subjectivity. So, any attitude, or demand of this type, any profound meditation, is essentially an appeal to the highest level of energy. But we need to understand that the highest level of energy is nothing titanic. Only when we comprehend this well, can we understand the true meaning of sacrifice, because the highest level of energy is developed when one is able to extract oneself from the decadent being we identify ourselves with, so as to come to an offering, a sacrifice. Meditation in its essence truly is a sacrifice. But because this question cannot be treated in a few words, we will now try to develop this theme through the other questions.

Life is sacred in each of its multifaceted aspects, nonetheless we are tasked with holding Christ in it. Why?
Here we have a chance to continue the discussion we have started about profound meditation and sacrifice. We are in a moment in time when the sacrifice of meditation is requested by the spiritual world, with the purpose of helping the collective destiny, the destiny of the nation we belong to, in connection with other people as well. Therefore, when we say that someone is a great Italian, the spiritual meaning has to be translated in the following terms; a great Italian can be a poet, a hero, an inventor, but in spiritual sense, we can say that a great Italian is the one who enables the national spiritual entity - an Archangel - to read in his soul the needs of the people he belongs to. Tradition teaches us that each of us has a guardian Angel, a sort of deputy-I. This Angel however is “laid off” as soon as one starts to incorporate the I, in which case this laid off Angel can offer a more powerful help than it could when it was bound to our destiny. As there is a guardian Angel for the individual, in the same way, there is an Archangel for a nation. Every nation has its Archangel, and things go wrong for a nation when the Archangel has lost connection and is prevented from giving the forces. The Archangel can only infuse force if there are beings who establish a relationship, offering the Archangel a vision, so to say, in order for the requested forces to inflow. Whoever attains this level is a true helper - a self helper, and a helper for his nation. In occult terms, this being was called in ancient times the Solar Hero. The Solar Hero was the sixth level of initiation, in line with the possibility for the initiate to attain the sphere of the Sun, and to receive from it the forces to be employed on Earth. This pertains to ancient initiation. Indeed, the expression “Solar Hero” is present in the various traditions. Here we can start addressing the question from our friend. The Spirit of the Sun is transferred to the Earth and the Solar Hero is the one who seeks the Sun principle on Earth. We can say that the middle ground between what is ancient and what is new is the Pentecost, because at Pentecost the twelve were pervaded by the Sun Spirit, by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit who was born from the sacrifice of the Being of the Solar Logos.

The present day position of the initiate requires that the Solar Hero is the one who recovers the relationship with the Logos, through the forces of meditation and sacrifice. So you see the connection with what our friend was asking at the beginning. This endeavor restores the grade of Solar hero and corresponds with the passing of the threshold. Some of us can therefore understand what difficulties they have to endure in these times, if they want to be of help to the human collective and to the destiny of their nation. There is a spiritual being of the hierarchy of the Archangels who is in need of such beings, otherwise it cannot act. Or, it can, but only by means of karma, that is, by the crudest means. Now let’s go back to the first question: “Can we avoid the way of violence, the brutal way, through the real force, that is, the force of Spirit?” The force of Spirit is able to operate much better than any weapons. So, the idea of the Solar hero is alive, and the spiritual world is waiting for beings to appear who are able to conceive an enterprise of this kind.

Here we can attach this question: “How to connect the events of our life with the Logos?” and this one too: “Hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done. What is the thought that connects this invocation with the miracle of Resurrection?
We can say that this indeed is realized through the forces of Resurrection, because “to hallow Thy Name” means to enliven the principle through living thinking, in a sphere where the Luciferic intelligence is overcome through the solar powers of thinking. Through powerful thinking, through the highest energy of thinking, man becomes free in the head from the Luciferic deception, the Ahrimanic deception, and that’s when he starts to hallow the name of the Lord, because he can consecrate, dedicate his thinking. In this manner, the way to the heart is opened, the way to the true domain of the Divine. Thy Kingdom come: the Kingdom is the kingdom of the median system, the kingdom of the heart. In this way we understand how the power of Logos is transferred to the will. So: Manas, Buddhi, Atman. That is, once the Name is hallowed, we can be worthy of accessing the Kingdom, because the Kingdom asserts itself in us through the system of rhythm, so that the will is consecrated. Today, this possibility is realizable through the idea of Solar heroicity, that is the possibility to realize what the ancient initiate could attain by escaping the Earth and immersing himself in the Solar domain. Today, this domain is to be found on Earth.

It remains to say what sacrifice consists of. Sacrifice is imitation of the divine, because all that is gifted to man, the entire creation in the universe, all that man can make use of, comes from the sacrifice of God. How? We can use an image. Let’s imagine a powerful lord who possesses lands, who is a just lord, one who puts himself in the service of others, someone who holds together all the beings who work the land. Let’s imagine that these peasants feel the need to bring him gifts, as a sign of their loyalty, and so they do a minimal sacrifice to give him the highest thing they are able to give. And let’s imagine that the lord does not accept those gifts. Better said, he accepts them, but not for himself. He says: “There are peasants who are less provided than you are, thus I will give these gifts to them. So, you gifted me, but the gift will only find its right place if I pass it in turn to those who stand lower. Notice, this is simply an image I use to express something that is terribly metaphysical. If you consider occult science, if you understand how the forces of the Sun have reconquered the absolutely transcendent warmth coming from Saturn, then you will discover this really mysterious event: at some point, the Spirits of Wisdom make a sacrifice, that they offer to the higher hierarchies, the first hierarchies, that is the Thrones and the Cherubs. This sacrifice ascends and is embraced by these Cherubs and Thrones. But what is really embraced is the renunciation, which means to transfer the gift of this sacrifice to beings who are ascending the ladder of the hierarchies.
In this way this sacrifice of the Spirits of Wisdom is poured in the Archangels, who accept, and rejoy, and acquire endless force. And as soon as the Archangels are charged by the sacrifice of the Spirits of Wisdom, they explode in an act of love from which the light of the Sun is born - which is not the physical light, of course. So, that Light is a Power of Love. It is born in the Sun, as the consequence of the sacrifice of the Spirits of Wisdom.

If you read the pages our Doctor has written, you will find that he sometimes recommends the meditation: “In light, wisdom flows”. Now, it’s not that we are supposed to analyze these images, Woe if we do, we would then kill them. Still, knowing certain behind-the-scenes is a power system that builds up in us, and enables us to intensely experience the content of meditation. In this way we can comprehend the whole creation, the birth of space and, in the sphere of Saturn, the birth of warmth, that is the sacrifice of the Thrones, as narrated by our Doctor. Then the sacrifice goes on, until the sacrifice culminates with Christ. Everything that is occult history of the Earth is lived through imaginations. You see, all the ancient world, all the pre-Christian traditions, are nourished by a vision that is naturally initiatic. It is a power of vision in movement, transferred from school to school, from initiate to disciple, and articulated through this etheric power of the mission. Having time, it would be possible to interpret all the initiatic movements of the East and of the West in this way, because this vision is connected with the intuition of sacrifice, except that it doesn’t have the power to reproduce it on Earth. This terrorized all spiritual seekers, who tasked themselves with escaping the Earth, ending reincarnation on Earth, finding a way to cut ties with Earth, so as to avoid the Earthly flows. In all the Yoga-asanas, starting from Padmasana, the Yogi has the shrewdness not to give hold to the currents emanating from the Earth, because they are Ahrimanic currents, and they knew that, if these Ahrimanic currents prevail, they would be forced to face the demon of the Earth. And they lacked that strength. But they didn’t know that the coming of the one who would have the force to dominate Ahriman was being prepared, and that He would accomplish the highest divine sacrifice, the highest offering to man, in order for man to recover his own being.

This is naturally a difficult theme to treat briefly. But, in essence, what does that mean? What is the difference between the various forms of initiations and the situation after the birth of the I? Notice, the I was born in a barbaric manner, because it was born as materialistic I, it was born in a really somber and dangerous way. Nevertheless, whoever truly follows the occult needs to know what lies behind all that. The destiny of Man is at stake. All the false elements in the various occultisms that are told and handed down can paralyze the path of man by making man either an agent of Lucifer, or an agent Ahriman. An agent of Ahriman is able to see by magical means, because Ahriman is a powerful magician, a bestower of magical powers, and when he finds his agents, he also bestows them with a power of will having the same intensity as a force of nature. We, from our side, have to gain the will crumb by crumb, little by little, through formidable efforts, but the one who follows Ahrimanic currents, and is indulgent with morality, receives formidable magical forces. The problem is, it’s a pact. A pact is signed, and then one is in big trouble, if one wants to be free. However, a pact of this sort cannot have anything to do with those who follow the ways of the spirit with a pure heart. Those can possibly err, but erring in good faith, they will always find the way again. On the other hand, we have to say that there are series of beings - here we are considering human groups, not initiates - who, mechanized, mentally sclerotized by the materialistic ideologies, get into the habit of becoming instruments, they are beings at the service of Ahriman, because for them in life there is nothing else than terrestriality, there is no possibility whatsoever to see anything beyond. These beings, after death, don’t go to the spiritual world, they remain attached to the Earth. We can say that they die in half. Something happens, a sort of initial immortality, connected with Ahriman’s command on Earth. This group has already started to appear. There are beings who, after death, don't do the post mortem journey described not only in the Egyptian book of the dead, the one of [----], but also in the Occult Science of Steiner. They remain in the halo of the Earth, and they tend to reincarnate. These are the beings who lose the I. This is why it is possible to produce a child in vitro. Absolutely, we will certainly come to that. Of course, let’s look at Goethe’s homunculus. Goethe had foreseen that. In this situation, we have to understand what the era of redemption means, because the world is cut in half. This used to much sadden my friend Evola. My friend Evola was a great admirer of Bachofen. Evola has raised awareness of the work of Bachofen in Italy, which is a great work. Nevertheless he has always carefully omitted to say that Bachofen, like Hegel, used to argue that the history of man was divided in two, and that Christ represents the new history of Earth. Evola was really agreeable, because he was always pulling everyone’s leg, he always did as he pleased. He used to present authors in the way he personally liked. And he presented Bachofen in a way that one would ignore his marvelous Christianism. And his statement - that Steiner later developed and clarified - that Christ is at the center of human evolution, really is discovered by whoeve truly follows the ways of the Spirit. See, one can discover that in a truly wonderful way, even if one does not know Steiner, even if one knows nothing about Christ, even if one follows a pagan way. If one really searches, one comes to the understanding that the time of force has begun. The time of imaginations is over. Hence, the time of apparitions is over, and so is the time of escapes, and ecstasies… the time of samadhi, the time of ruptures. This is the time in which man can finally incarnate the force.

In the East, there is a very interesting figure called Aurobindo. In essence, he looked at the Christ and said: “Christ, and all that, very well, but I am in contact with a force.” and it’s very interesting how he describes this force. He says, it’s a force that has to transform the matter of the Earth, and this force has just sprung into action, right now. Whoever knows how things stand, understands what he’s talking about. There is another very sympathetic figure - Ramana Maharshi. He says that we are searching for the I. We have it, and we have to grasp that we can realize everything, if we realize the I. In essence he has summarized all the Eastern methods, including the monistic, Islamic ways. He has summarized all those ways in a quest for the I through the question of thinking. How not to notice that there’s something new in the East as well?

So these questions enable me to further indicate the meaning of a way that searches for the Logos through living thinking. In essence, it’s a way where one feels that something decisive, something that really has never had anything to do with initiation, is about to happen. As I said, even if one doesn’t know Steiner, the Gospels, or Christianism, provided that one really operates this liberation of thinking, the way will be found. Many years ago, I came to know… I can say that, he was a dentist - though he wasn't even officially qualified as a dentist - and he explained to me that he had an inner method. I had noticed he had a profound calmness, he had something angelic in him. He was an old man, about 60 years old. He had something of the quality of a saint, and he was fantastic as a dentist also. We started talking, and he told me that he had started suffering from insomnia, but because of diabetes and other conditions, he couldn't take remedies for insomnia. So he was in a bad position and decided to study in himself the process by which insomnia arises. He soon realized it was arising from thoughts that, by themselves, were tyrannizing in the brain, making it impossible for him to melt into sleep. So he started to operate on those thoughts, by dampening one thought, and then another one, and another one, finally being able to enter sleep. He ended up appreciating the activity, and decided to push it further. In this way he realized that as long as he was able to maintain this neutrality of rational thought, a sort of light of thought would appear, and pervade him. After two minutes of this activity he would be more rested than after a full night of sleep. He continued this practice. He told me: “It’s exactly as you explain it, I am connected with a marvelous force that is always there to help me. But I am afraid of this force.” Then I told him a few things. So, this being, a self-healer, with no esoteric culture, through such a simple operation had started to understand that the force of thinking is a divine current. If he had turned to really look at it, he would have discovered the Lord. And exactly in that circumstance, he could have said: “Hallowed be Thy Name”, and then also: “Thy Kingdom come”, and then: “Thy will be done”.

I believe I have answered the question. Let’s conclude with “How to connect the events of our life with the Logos?
By extinguishing any fear. It is necessary to come not to fear anything anymore. Then one finds connection with the Logos. Fear takes us away from Logos, because it does not belong to us. The I cannot fear. Now, we can definitely feel fear - who doesn’t? - but we also have to immediately say “It doesn’t belong to me, it is not part of my spirit, it is foreign to my spirit, it is contrary to the spirit, I have to reject it”. These are trials that face us, but we have to maintain this certainly, that whoever faces a trial is sacred, and the power of spirit will assist him. Absolutely everyone who goes through a trial is surrounded by those assisting beings who are ready to help him. The thing is that he has to remember that, and not to forego the help.
We have mentioned that intensity and energy are necessary, but we can’t close this discussion without saying that everything done with less than the highest level of energy doesn’t reach through, doesn’t come to honor’s bowers. “By toil and travel, not by sitting still In pleasure’s lap, we come to honor’s bowers” This is Dante. In this verse there is a small intuition of that [it is actually Torquato Tasso, in the poem "Jerusalem Delivered"].
In this way, after this little digression, we are back to the theme we have begun with, because the highest level of energy is the gift of oneself, that is, sacrifice. And we can always learn by observing, if possible, the gifts of the gods.
Do Ahrimanic and Luciferic beings have no I?
One could then no longer call these incarnations human, but demons in human bodies.
If this were the case, and if it really is the case, these beings shouldn't have any memory or morals, they would be zombies, so to speak, but I haven't seen any of those to this day.
I have read this statement by Steiner before, and it is not conclusive.
Why would the infinitely wise cosmos allow such demons to inhale into human bodies?
~Only true love can heal broken hearts~
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:48 pm
Federica wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2023 10:25 pm Ashvin,

You have anticipated a question I had, thanks for bringing this up! Indeed one gets the impression that there is something off in MS’ answer, or something missing. I know you advised me to ponder my replies more, and suspend judgment. I assure you I am not judging. I realize I am moving on very fragmentary understanding, so I’m not attached to the thoughts I have written here. But I would like to see if they match. I've read both your and Cleric's replies to Eugene, and Steiner lecture where he speaks of fluid Mars.


Cleric wrote:it's a matter of attaining consciousness of this. This is achieved by our sheaths becoming resonantly attuned, like fractal levels, such that the experiences in the non-local levels can be 'amplified' through the gradient to the level of thoughts, which surely depend on the local formations of the etheric and physical brain and other organs.

Scarsely related, but I believe the amplification Cleric describes, necessary for us to become comfortable with these esoteric facts, is the same thing as the brain excavations, or brain channels, in MS’ lecture. It’s interesting that in one case transformation is removing barriers to the flow of Logos from the most dense layer, the physical brain, while in Cleric it’s not about removing, as much as it is adjusting the coordination of our 4 bodies so that resonance can traverse the real-size Moire pattern of our organization and warm the brain. I am trying to get a sense of how these two understandings may interfere, but I’m not quite there…..

Cleric wrote:At that level all spheres have their mineral shadow (so in occult sense our rocky Moon, Mars and so on are also Earth) but in the course of evolution our planetary body has been made into the point of balance that allows for mineralization to go so far yet also remain bridgeable to the life of soul and spirit through the gradient of organic biology.

Control question: this position of the Earth as point of balance is only true during the Earth current evolutionary phase? In other words, it will not apply to the future Jupiter state, correct?



Coming to the question of Mars, this is the Steiner lecture in question, in which he is asked to describe Mars. He says:
Steiner wrote:Mars consists primarily of a more or less fluid mass, not as fluid as our water but, shall we say, more like the consistency of jelly, or something of that kind. There are also dense components, but they are not as densely solid as those of our earth. Their consistency would be more comparable to that of the antlers or horns of our animals, which form out of the general mass and dissolve back into it again. So we must realize that the constitution of Mars is entirely different from that of our earth. …
Only everything on Mars is much more full of life than on the earth. The earth is a dead planet in a far stronger sense than Mars, on which everything is still more or less living.
I would advance a theory. I am not sure of course. It seems at first that Steiner is speaking of the mineral shadow of Mars (the physical planet) because such is the orientation of the question, and he does not explicitly state otherwise. I feel this is also how Scaligero reads it, based on how he deals with the Mars question in his lecture. And maybe this puts him somewhat in trouble. Following what Cleric says, maybe we shouldn’t imagine the planetary organization of the being-Mars as a mirror of our own organization, or a mirror of the Earth’s, in terms of how the various bodies stand in relation to each other. Maybe the form of the Mars decoherence is such that its mineral shadow is more ‘one-sided’ and insignificant, because the planet is so full of life (as Steiner says). The counterintuitive part for the exoteric mind is that “full of life” means full of etheric life, and consequently with less dead stuff (less of what from a materialistic perspective is precisely considered budding, rich, diverse life, as in the magnificent diversity of life on Earth, for instance). This makes Steiner’s description a bit obscure from standard perspective, but consistent in esoteric terms.
In other words, the whole planet organization of Mars - not physical Mars - is full of life, which could actually reflect in a dry and dead material shell - such as the one we know today through space exploration - because the life force and the soul are such that there is not much left to precipitate into Mars’s physical sphere. Also, what Cleric says, that Mars man lacks a physical body, supports that too, considering that a planet and its plain-right inhabitants share a particular connection. I say 'plain-right' to signify that I don’t forget that we all live ‘on Mars’ in some sense. So the whole Mars complex (planet + beings) seems to be more “introverted” than us on our Earth, so to say, more drawn away from the physical, and I guess Steiner was giving an overall description of the Mars-being, not only of its mineral part. It could be a joint description of the etheric+physical planes, where the major part is the life-etheric part. As a consequence what’s left to perceive by space probes is actually not that much. A solid, but all in all scarcely significant dead precipitation, that conceals from a physical-telescopic eye all the richness of Martian life. In case this makes sense, I wonder if MS missed it. What do you think?

Federica,

I will need to consider your various points more carefully before formulating a response. For now, I just want to make a brief note on how I understand the 'occult sense of Earth'. I think the simplest way to approach this would be to identify Earth in the occult sense as a communal state of consciousness in which inhabitants become aware of their willing being in relation to other beings (or what is normally understood as the ‘outer world’) at the level of the mineral shadow. As long as we remain at this stage of self-awareness and other-awareness, we are still on Earth or carrying the Earth with us wherever we imagine we are “going”. There is, of course, still some relation between the perceptual constellations we experience and the underlying ideal realities they symbolize, but the relation is not very dependent on spatial distances. The latter only reflect back to us our own limitations of thinking-will. That is the way I think about it right now, at least. Scaligero also addresses this aspect in one of his books. I am interested to hear what you think.

Nevertheless, we think we can master space by moving from place to place while inevitably always bearing the same limit. Scientific knowledge and mathematical logic reassure us of this, as they both create a new metaphysics out of the impotency to cognize the limit. We consider it quite an accomplishment to overcome given distances with greater speed, namely, by reinforcing the illusion that space is conquerable and that earthly limits can be overcome via machines, which are themselves the typical expression of our subjection to such limits. These limits can be overcome only where they are grasped and cognized. For the only extraterrestrial space toward which we can journey is that which requires the use of a carefully encapsulated missile in which all necessary conditions for our earthly existence are reproduced. And even so, Earth is, in effect, never left behind. This is also the case with the nervous system, whose life can exist only upon the Earth's surface and whose mediation gives rise to the formation of nature's abstract laws. The validity of such laws diminishes as we gradually distance ourselves from Earth. To become distant from Earth is to experience what can be gathered beyond the mediation of this nervous system. But this would effectively be to realize thought's autonomy from intellectualism, to realize an independence from sensory conditions that enables our inner being to explore other worlds and to perceive the life unknown to us on Earth. Earth is still unknown to those who presumably probe the cosmos. The life that gives rise on Earth to the existence of plants, animals, and human beings is a mystery to them. The mystery that they seek “spatially” is merely the life on Earth that arrives from the extraterrestrial cosmos, a cosmos that cannot be reached unless we know how to encounter it in its various earthly forms.

Scaligero, Massimo. The Secrets of Space and Time (pp. 22-23). Lindisfarne Books. Kindle Edition.

Ashvin,

in the wake of some pondering of what Cleric wrote after you posted your thoughts about Earth, I would express my current thoughts as below. They only try to bridge the fragments of my understanding in some tentative way, and are not in any sense stable or complete. Steiner’s Cosmic Memory series are also coming to mind. I haven’t read Occult Science yet, apart from the first couple of chapters.

At an initial general level, I would conceive planet quality, hence Earth quality, in terms of Soul quality. Feeling, rather than Will. Maybe we could say that, in occult sense, the planet world is as ‘far’ as non-locality goes - as much as non-locality means - when it comes to the soul’s preponderant color, or character, in beings of all sorts. In other words, Soul expresses itself at best at planetary level, and we can occultly understand planets in terms of soul qualities. But we don’t want to associate the thought “planetary level” with a picture of the solar system. Rather, we want to think it from the other edge first: we want to think that the key to understanding these soul-(astral) qualities as more or less pronounced feeling nuances of beings, sits somewhere in a non-local spiritual world - that we could initially approximate as “all around us” - and that the physical solar system we know is only the last devolution, the last domino layer, the end projection into the most limited plane, that somewhat one-sidedly reflects the original features of Soul (of course also through ether, that bridges soul and matter). I say 'one-sided reflection' to mean that not all soul complexity would result in distinguishable mineral (physical) features.

Sorry, I know the above is redundant, but I am striving to write intelligibly for others to maybe get what I’m trying to say, and also for myself, when I will later read this again :)

So, along these lines, I would think that Will is more cohered than Soul. There is I-thinking-will, soul-feeling-will, material-will-will, and I am not sure that Will manifests in its 'full-right residence' specifically in planetary sense. Maybe this is not exactly what you were saying, since you were relating Earth to attaining consicousness of material will, but I just want to express that Will as Divine principle seems too high for its awareness - even limited to physical - to be the preponderant character of Earth-ness. Maybe the I, rather than the astral Soul - in physical shadowy terms, the whole universe expanse rather than the solar system - would be a more fitting ‘locus’ of the seat of the Will principle. And the whole ‘over-galactic’ physical space a more fitting picture of it, rather than the planets of the solar system. Will sits one frequency-boudle up, so to say, with respect to Soul and Feeling.

Now coming back to planet nature, and Earth nature. We know that Mars is belligerent soul. I'd venture to say that Mars is also soul who resists intimate universal brotherhood through etheric evasion (I would like to know about Martian reproduction, but I don't want to go there now, otherwise I’d lose my thread). Then Earth, for its part, in terms of soul, appears to me as exuberance, spaciousness, overextension, and even wastefulness. Earth soul quality is provocation. It’s both the middle ground and the edge. It’s both gradient and pick. It’s both a call for provocation and its follow-through.

In no other soul sphere has the energy of Logos (to say it in MS words) been squeezed out so resolutely towards its consummation. With Earth, the Divine principle explores the paradox of pushing life into death, the paradox of entering death with the force of life on death’s own terms and territories, the paradox of experiencing how far perdition (in the sense of active loss) can be pushed without incurring in eternal dispersion of all meaning. To say it in little stirring terms, the magnificent, mind boggling, unspeakably beautiful blooming of diverse physical Nature that we know (and are) on Earth, can otherwise be seen as a colossal wastefield, as reflection of the deafening and thunderous work in progress of the Divine principle in the process of pumping true richness of life - the life Steiner says that Mars is full of - into the border control of the abyss. As also illustrated in the Earth layers. (Maybe this is similar to what you were pointing to, in terms of becoming conscious of the predominance of the mineral shadow through our willful activity).

Trying to wrap up my thoughts, I could say that, in the Earth sphere, the Logos confronts the Death of all meaning with what we could call Deep Life (etheric life). Flat Life (physical life) is what remains of Deep Life on the battlefield of Death’s inner resistance to it. In other words, physical Earth as we know it is the relic picture of the continual Day After. And we are those beings whose soul inhabits - and is inhabited by - that tremendous friction. For this reason, our soul preponderance as Earthly beings is a quality of exuberant industry, in the sense of 'being industrious'. And we experience this 'industry' in our Earthly soul to the point of excess, to the point of waste. Certainly, as you say, this colossal Earthly friction must come into fully conscious focus within us, and thereby, be bridged.

This is how the Earthly soul quality appears to me at the moment as the most experimental forefront, the outmost moral frontier, of the expression of God’s will.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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