Massimo Scaligero

[Federica]

Do Ahrimanic and Luciferic beings have no I?
One could then no longer call these incarnations human, but demons in human bodies.
If this were the case, and if it really is the case, these beings shouldn't have any memory or morals, they would be zombies, so to speak, but I haven't seen any of those to this day.
I have read this statement by Steiner before, and it is not conclusive.
Why would the infinitely wise cosmos allow such demons to inhale into human bodies?

Güney,

These are all legitimate questions, and I am very far from holding well formed answers to them. I remember that last year you started a thread on this topic, which is very understandable. This topic is pressing, and also challenging and delicate.

I cannot say that I have a sufficiently good grasp on the manifold expressions of Ahrimanic and Luciferic impulses in our Earthly sphere, but I feel that we should remember that these impulses express themselves in us as well, otherwise we wouldn't be here, striving for consciousness of this impulse on the Earthly plane (physical and spiritual). I am saying this to encourage us to consider these impulses as fully interwoven with Earthly nature, including our own nature, rather than picturing them as 'concentrated' in specific, separate beings. In a big sense, we are connected with all those beings, and a relevant part of this connection, at least at the Earthy level, happens exactly through the Ahrimanic and Luciferic impulses.

So we should feel that we share that challenge with all other beings who may be overwhelmed by those impulses. We also are overwhelmed by those, and maybe only the nature and duration of that cycle is different across beings. Maybe for some that cycle of overwhelming extends beyond the physical life cycle, while others are able to emerge out of it within the rhythm of one physical life, to illuminate that impulse with the Logos-light of consciousness. In this way, we can start to sense that our enemy is the unconsciousness of the evil impulse itself, not this or that manifestation of that impulse, and certainly not its manifestation as a schematized perception of ours, where we finger-point to this or that specific physical expression. Rather, it's a continuum of Ahrimanic and Luciferic intention that we need to face, firstly within our own inner life. Also, this more and more pronounced differentiation of Ahrimanic influences across the physical spectrum is in itself a helpful sign for the counsciousness-soul to work its way through reality towards its mission. Therefore, a hightened sense of loving gratitude should be one of the outcomes, in appreciation of the spirit of sacrifice that emerges from this situation.

Another possible way to look at the question is: this information - that Ahriman is challenging humanity more and more in bold and pervasive ways, with heavy impact on the physical bodily sphere - is the opportunity for us to awaken to a fully owned understanding, feeling, and act of respect for all beings, out of our own concretely felt and conscious forces of love, rather than out of an external human rights rule of law that would tell us from outside, and in abstract formulation, what to think, how to feel, and how to act with respect to all other beings on this Earth, whom we share a great deal with, for the very reason of our common Earthly destiny.

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,

You have anticipated a question I had, thanks for bringing this up! Indeed one gets the impression that there is something off in MS’ answer, or something missing. I know you advised me to ponder my replies more, and suspend judgment. I assure you I am not judging. I realize I am moving on very fragmentary understanding, so I’m not attached to the thoughts I have written here. But I would like to see if they match. I've read both your and Cleric's replies to Eugene, and Steiner lecture where he speaks of fluid Mars.






Scarsely related, but I believe the amplification Cleric describes, necessary for us to become comfortable with these esoteric facts, is the same thing as the brain excavations, or brain channels, in MS’ lecture. It’s interesting that in one case transformation is removing barriers to the flow of Logos from the most dense layer, the physical brain, while in Cleric it’s not about removing, as much as it is adjusting the coordination of our 4 bodies so that resonance can traverse the real-size Moire pattern of our organization and warm the brain. I am trying to get a sense of how these two understandings may interfere, but I’m not quite there…..





Control question: this position of the Earth as point of balance is only true during the Earth current evolutionary phase? In other words, it will not apply to the future Jupiter state, correct?



Coming to the question of Mars, this is the Steiner lecture in question, in which he is asked to describe Mars. He says:



I would advance a theory. I am not sure of course. It seems at first that Steiner is speaking of the mineral shadow of Mars (the physical planet) because such is the orientation of the question, and he does not explicitly state otherwise. I feel this is also how Scaligero reads it, based on how he deals with the Mars question in his lecture. And maybe this puts him somewhat in trouble. Following what Cleric says, maybe we shouldn’t imagine the planetary organization of the being-Mars as a mirror of our own organization, or a mirror of the Earth’s, in terms of how the various bodies stand in relation to each other. Maybe the form of the Mars decoherence is such that its mineral shadow is more ‘one-sided’ and insignificant, because the planet is so full of life (as Steiner says). The counterintuitive part for the exoteric mind is that “full of life” means full of etheric life, and consequently with less dead stuff (less of what from a materialistic perspective is precisely considered budding, rich, diverse life, as in the magnificent diversity of life on Earth, for instance). This makes Steiner’s description a bit obscure from standard perspective, but consistent in esoteric terms.
In other words, the whole planet organization of Mars - not physical Mars - is full of life, which could actually reflect in a dry and dead material shell - such as the one we know today through space exploration - because the life force and the soul are such that there is not much left to precipitate into Mars’s physical sphere. Also, what Cleric says, that Mars man lacks a physical body, supports that too, considering that a planet and its plain-right inhabitants share a particular connection. I say 'plain-right' to signify that I don’t forget that we all live ‘on Mars’ in some sense. So the whole Mars complex (planet + beings) seems to be more “introverted” than us on our Earth, so to say, more drawn away from the physical, and I guess Steiner was giving an overall description of the Mars-being, not only of its mineral part. It could be a joint description of the etheric+physical planes, where the major part is the life-etheric part. As a consequence what’s left to perceive by space probes is actually not that much. A solid, but all in all scarcely significant dead precipitation, that conceals from a physical-telescopic eye all the richness of Martian life. In case this makes sense, I wonder if MS missed it. What do you think?

Federica,

I will need to consider your various points more carefully before formulating a response. For now, I just want to make a brief note on how I understand the 'occult sense of Earth'. I think the simplest way to approach this would be to identify Earth in the occult sense as a communal state of consciousness in which inhabitants become aware of their willing being in relation to other beings (or what is normally understood as the ‘outer world’) at the level of the mineral shadow. As long as we remain at this stage of self-awareness and other-awareness, we are still on Earth or carrying the Earth with us wherever we imagine we are “going”. There is, of course, still some relation between the perceptual constellations we experience and the underlying ideal realities they symbolize, but the relation is not very dependent on spatial distances. The latter only reflect back to us our own limitations of thinking-will. That is the way I think about it right now, at least. Scaligero also addresses this aspect in one of his books. I am interested to hear what you think.

Nevertheless, we think we can master space by moving from place to place while inevitably always bearing the same limit. Scientific knowledge and mathematical logic reassure us of this, as they both create a new metaphysics out of the impotency to cognize the limit. We consider it quite an accomplishment to overcome given distances with greater speed, namely, by reinforcing the illusion that space is conquerable and that earthly limits can be overcome via machines, which are themselves the typical expression of our subjection to such limits. These limits can be overcome only where they are grasped and cognized. For the only extraterrestrial space toward which we can journey is that which requires the use of a carefully encapsulated missile in which all necessary conditions for our earthly existence are reproduced. And even so, Earth is, in effect, never left behind. This is also the case with the nervous system, whose life can exist only upon the Earth's surface and whose mediation gives rise to the formation of nature's abstract laws. The validity of such laws diminishes as we gradually distance ourselves from Earth. To become distant from Earth is to experience what can be gathered beyond the mediation of this nervous system. But this would effectively be to realize thought's autonomy from intellectualism, to realize an independence from sensory conditions that enables our inner being to explore other worlds and to perceive the life unknown to us on Earth. Earth is still unknown to those who presumably probe the cosmos. The life that gives rise on Earth to the existence of plants, animals, and human beings is a mystery to them. The mystery that they seek “spatially” is merely the life on Earth that arrives from the extraterrestrial cosmos, a cosmos that cannot be reached unless we know how to encounter it in its various earthly forms.

Scaligero, Massimo. The Secrets of Space and Time (pp. 22-23). Lindisfarne Books. Kindle Edition.

Ashvin,

in the wake of some pondering of what Cleric wrote after you posted your thoughts about Earth, I would express my current thoughts as below. They only try to bridge the fragments of my understanding in some tentative way, and are not in any sense stable or complete. Steiner’s Cosmic Memory series are also coming to mind. I haven’t read Occult Science yet, apart from the first couple of chapters.

At an initial general level, I would conceive planet quality, hence Earth quality, in terms of Soul quality. Feeling, rather than Will. Maybe we could say that, in occult sense, the planet world is as ‘far’ as non-locality goes - as much as non-locality means - when it comes to the soul’s preponderant color, or character, in beings of all sorts. In other words, Soul expresses itself at best at planetary level, and we can occultly understand planets in terms of soul qualities. But we don’t want to associate the thought “planetary level” with a picture of the solar system. Rather, we want to think it from the other edge first: we want to think that the key to understanding these soul-(astral) qualities as more or less pronounced feeling nuances of beings, sits somewhere in a non-local spiritual world - that we could initially approximate as “all around us” - and that the physical solar system we know is only the last devolution, the last domino layer, the end projection into the most limited plane, that somewhat one-sidedly reflects the original features of Soul (of course also through ether, that bridges soul and matter). I say 'one-sided reflection' to mean that not all soul complexity would result in distinguishable mineral (physical) features.

Sorry, I know the above is redundant, but I am striving to write intelligibly for others to maybe get what I’m trying to say, and also for myself, when I will later read this again

So, along these lines, I would think that Will is more cohered than Soul. There is I-thinking-will, soul-feeling-will, material-will-will, and I am not sure that Will manifests in its 'full-right residence' specifically in planetary sense. Maybe this is not exactly what you were saying, since you were relating Earth to attaining consicousness of material will, but I just want to express that Will as Divine principle seems too high for its awareness - even limited to physical - to be the preponderant character of Earth-ness. Maybe the I, rather than the astral Soul - in physical shadowy terms, the whole universe expanse rather than the solar system - would be a more fitting ‘locus’ of the seat of the Will principle. And the whole ‘over-galactic’ physical space a more fitting picture of it, rather than the planets of the solar system. Will sits one frequency-boudle up, so to say, with respect to Soul and Feeling.

Now coming back to planet nature, and Earth nature. We know that Mars is belligerent soul. I'd venture to say that Mars is also soul who resists intimate universal brotherhood through etheric evasion (I would like to know about Martian reproduction, but I don't want to go there now, otherwise I’d lose my thread). Then Earth, for its part, in terms of soul, appears to me as exuberance, spaciousness, overextension, and even wastefulness. Earth soul quality is provocation. It’s both the middle ground and the edge. It’s both gradient and pick. It’s both a call for provocation and its follow-through.

In no other soul sphere has the energy of Logos (to say it in MS words) been squeezed out so resolutely towards its consummation. With Earth, the Divine principle explores the paradox of pushing life into death, the paradox of entering death with the force of life on death’s own terms and territories, the paradox of experiencing how far perdition (in the sense of active loss) can be pushed without incurring in eternal dispersion of all meaning. To say it in little stirring terms, the magnificent, mind boggling, unspeakably beautiful blooming of diverse physical Nature that we know (and are) on Earth, can otherwise be seen as a colossal wastefield, as reflection of the deafening and thunderous work in progress of the Divine principle in the process of pumping true richness of life - the life Steiner says that Mars is full of - into the border control of the abyss. As also illustrated in the Earth layers. (Maybe this is similar to what you were pointing to, in terms of becoming conscious of the predominance of the mineral shadow through our willful activity).

Trying to wrap up my thoughts, I could say that, in the Earth sphere, the Logos confronts the Death of all meaning with what we could call Deep Life (etheric life). Flat Life (physical life) is what remains of Deep Life on the battlefield of Death’s inner resistance to it. In other words, physical Earth as we know it is the relic picture of the continual Day After. And we are those beings whose soul inhabits - and is inhabited by - that tremendous friction. For this reason, our soul preponderance as Earthly beings is a quality of exuberant industry, in the sense of 'being industrious'. And we experience this 'industry' in our Earthly soul to the point of excess, to the point of waste. Certainly, as you say, this colossal Earthly friction must come into fully conscious focus within us, and thereby, be bridged.

This is how the Earthly soul quality appears to me at the moment as the most experimental forefront, the outmost moral frontier, of the expression of God’s will.

Federica, thanks for providing these additional interesting details on your viewpoint. I don't really disagree with anything you state, to the extent that I am understanding it properly.

I think it is helpful here to establish a principled foundation in terms of Earth's evolutionary goals, into which then your more subtle details and nuances can be added for higher resolution. As you know, the evolutionary task of Earth is to develop free and loving I-beings. Practically that begins with the development of objective consciousness into which the Spirit awakens. So I think it is best to characterize the Earth planetary sphere as that where objective consciousness is cultivated, which is of course a quality of the Soul, but not only of feeling. Rather it is a certain harmonic relation between the activities of will, feeling, and thinking. All the Time-layers of the spirit-soul-body structure are laminated together on the perceptual plane.

In one of the preceding descriptions, the great development of humanity through the seven stages of consciousness from Saturn to Vulcan has been compared with the progress through life between birth and death, through infancy, childhood, and so on, to old age. One can extend this comparison further. As among contemporary humanity, men of different ages do not only follow upon one another, but also exist side by side, so it is with the development of the stages of consciousness, The aged man, the mature man or the mature woman, the youth, travel through life side by side. Thus the ancestors of man existed on Saturn not only as beings with the dull Saturn consciousness, but also along with these as beings which had already developed the higher stages of consciousness. When the Saturn development began, there already existed natures with Sun consciousness, others with image consciousness (Moon consciousness) those with a consciousness similar to the present consciousness of man [objective consciousness], then a fourth kind with self-conscious (psychic) image consciousness, a fifth with self-conscious (supra-psychic) object consciousness, and a sixth with creative (spiritual) consciousness.

For the modern consciousness soul, it is even to the point where we delude ourselves into believing all phenomenal manifestations belong to the same field of action, obeying the same ‘laws’. But even basic thoughtful reflection shows that is not the case, for example, we know the plant form obeys ‘life-laws’ in addition to mineral laws, the animal form obeys soul-laws in addition to the life and mineral laws, and the human form also obeys idea-laws in addition. Only the mineral laws are directly reflected in perceptual transformations, though, so we generally ignore the other ones which are supersensible and conclude that all living and ideal phenomena somehow emerge from the mineral level. The main Earthly task is to freely make these higher laws, which are moral in character, more transparent on the perceptual plane. Right now we have mastered the mineral forces because they are most transparent to our "I" (although we have lost their moral character), and later we will also master the life forces of the plant kingdom, soul forces of the animal kingdom, and ideal forces of the human kingdom.

There was a time when all the planetary spheres of our Solar system were merged together within the Sun, but then they gradually separated off so that they could become appropriate arenas of development of various beings and Earth separated to become the point balance for this critical I-development that brings increasing moral transparency to the World. The details are pretty complex and I’m sure further occult research of the primordial ages would reveal even more details, but right now we are only interested in the basic principle at work. Brian Gray speaks about how this reality is embedded in the Goldilocks and 3 bears legend, where the girl finds the porridge, beds, and chairs that are neither too hot nor too cold, neither too soft nor too hard, neither too large nor too small, but “just right”. Earth is the arena of development that is “just right” for the I-development after the other spheres are separated off. This diagram may help, as it shows how the Earth sphere links together the regions of thought with the objective perceptual plane through the etheric region, i.e. the gradient of organic biology.




The following quote provides a pretty clear and concise description of why this separation of the spheres happened during the Earth's evolution.

In the previous pages nothing has been said about our Solar System, and of the different planets which compose it, because it was not until the Earth Period was reached that the present differentiation was made. The Earth Period is the acme of diversification, and although we have been speaking of only one class of virgin spirits-- those who, in the strictest and most limited sense, are concerned with the Earth evolution--there are in reality seven "Rays" or streams of life, all pursuing different evolutions, yet all belonging to the original class of virgin spirits to which our humanity belongs. In the previous Periods all of these different sub-classes or Rays found a suitable environment for their evolution on the same planet. But, in the Earth Period, conditions became such that in order to provide for each class the degree of heat and the vibration necessary for its particular phase of evolution, they were segregated on different planets, at varying distances from the Sun--the central source of life. This is the raison d'etre of our System and all other Solar Systems in the Universe.

Before proceeding with the description of evolution of our humanity on the Earth after its separation from the central Sun, it is necessary for the maintenance of sequential order in the description to explain the differentiation which scattered the planets of our System in space. Active manifestation--particularly in the Physical World--depends upon separateness; upon the limitation of life by form. But during the interim between Periods and Revolutions the marked distinction between form and life ceases. This applies not only to man and the lower kingdoms, but to the Worlds and Globes which are the basis of form for the evolving life. Only the seed-atoms and the nuclei or centers of the World-Globes remain--all else is one homogenous substance. There is but one Spirit pervading space. Life and Form, its positive and negative poles, are one.

… To express himself in the dense physical world, it was necessary for man to evolve a suitable dense body. In a world like this he must have a body with limbs, organs, a muscular system by means of which to move about; also a brain to direct and co-ordinate his movements. If the conditions had been different the body would have been modified accordingly.

Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception (Illustrated) (p. 244). Kindle Edition.

So the “I” awakens to itself on Earth initially through the reflections of the physical sensory organism, i.e. objective consciousness. The various forces are then all merged together on the perceptual plane, but inwardly they are differentiated into will, feeling, and thinking, sensing. Through higher development, which is a ‘condensing’ of the potential that everyone will unfold over more outspread iterations, we can permeate our objective thinking-sensing consciousness with the life forces (imagination), soul forces (inspiration), and idea forces (intuition). Or we could say we are enlivening the soul body, ensouling the life body, and idealizing the physical body. When we bring these forces into a more harmonious relation inwardly, we are also able to differentiate them on the perceptual plane, i.e. to perceive how the various forces interweave to objectively manifest the perceptual phenomena of experience. Of course, we shouldn’t imagine force-beams that are swirling around and creating objects, but rather we are speaking about how they condense through the nested Time-spectrum to intentionally weave together our individual and collective destinies.

I suspect that this Earth development, when it sufficiently spiritualizes the dense perceptual plane including our physical-etheric bodies, will then allow for the inhabitants of the other spheres to rejoin the human life wave on future planetary incarnations and develop their I-being in freedom and love. Although, since the time of Christ, the evolution is not only happening on Earth but also perhaps within the other spheres, as we see with the case of Buddha inspiring the Mars inhabitants. The Earth sphere is actually an interference of the activity occurring through all the other spheres of the Solar system (originally united), which we travel through after death and bring back their influences to the perceptual plane in new incarnations, so to speak. So we can’t really understand our Earthly development as anything isolated from what is happening on the other spheres as well, since they all belong to a unified karmic organism. We all have our tasks to carry out within this organism. At the end of Solar evolution, all the inhabitants will be integrated and attain their true individualized humanity as Spirits of Freedom and Love.

[AshvinP]

Do Ahrimanic and Luciferic beings have no I?
One could then no longer call these incarnations human, but demons in human bodies.
If this were the case, and if it really is the case, these beings shouldn't have any memory or morals, they would be zombies, so to speak, but I haven't seen any of those to this day.
I have read this statement by Steiner before, and it is not conclusive.
Why would the infinitely wise cosmos allow such demons to inhale into human bodies?

Guney,

I think we should differentiate here between Ahriman, Lucifer, Asuras. Ahriman influences the etheric body through the intellectual soul, Lucifer influences the astral body through the sentient soul, and the Asuras influence the physical body through the consciousness soul (and through it, the "I"). In religious terms, we could say that Lucifer resists the Holy Spirit, Ahriman resists the Son, and the Asuras resist the Father. These adversarial beings also have their equivalent of the “I”, but it is when our own I-force is weak or absent that they can take most advantage of our souls and bodies. A strong “I” acts as a guardian of its lower members.

But more importantly, as Federica also outlined, we should recognize that there is a gradient of influence that works in each and every one of us. MS pointed to this fact when he said, “However, when for example beings who do have an I are caught in obsessive patterns, it’s as if the I wasn't there.” Before we started meditating and studying spiritual science, I think most of us would have to admit that the majority of our days were spent passively flowing along with obsessive patterns in the sensory and intellectual domain as if the I wasn’t there. The uncomfortable truth is that, even on the esoteric path, our personality is still woven out of many elemental beings that we could call phantoms (physical), spectres (etheric), and demons (astral).

So you see how man in the most varied circumstances is continually accompanied by such swirling elemental beings, as they may be called. Man is really never alone; whatever he does and whatever he undertakes is at the same time an opportunity for the development of a number of beings. Man's deeds, both fine and crude, deeds of idealism and the most ugly deeds, all give an opportunity for the presence of creatures who encroach into man's forces and occupy themselves there and whom one must know if one is to get a true view of life. He who does not realize these things passes through life in complete blindness. We are not concerned here with mere theory or a theoretical challenge; all these things are directly practical. For man will only little by little in the future earthly evolution learn to act and frame his conduct on right lines, when he begins to recognize what creatures are summoned in response to certain deeds and circumstances. Everything that man does is like a summons to unknown beings.

These are formidable forces that provide resistance for us to creatively strengthen our I-forces and without which we could not become Divine. We will be tasked with redeeming these elemental beings and their adversarial 'parents' through the course of our own evolution, and that is part of the infinitely wise Cosmic plan as well. So we can only look upon those who are still caught in such obsessive patterns or have completely succumbed to them with a sense of fraternity, since we are not so much unlike them and need them for our own development, and with sympathy and empathy, since we have gone through what they are going through, and a solemn sense of responsibility to help raise them up with us when the time is ripe for doing so.

[Federica]

Do Ahrimanic and Luciferic beings have no I?
One could then no longer call these incarnations human, but demons in human bodies.
If this were the case, and if it really is the case, these beings shouldn't have any memory or morals, they would be zombies, so to speak, but I haven't seen any of those to this day.
I have read this statement by Steiner before, and it is not conclusive.
Why would the infinitely wise cosmos allow such demons to inhale into human bodies?

Guney,

I think we should differentiate here between Ahriman, Lucifer, Asuras. Ahriman influences the etheric body through the intellectual soul, Lucifer influences the astral body through the sentient soul, and the Asuras influence the physical body through the consciousness soul (and through it, the "I").

Ashvin,
Could you please say how this is applicable to the specific question MS was asked, or, in general, why you bring attention to this differentiation?

[AshvinP]

Do Ahrimanic and Luciferic beings have no I?
One could then no longer call these incarnations human, but demons in human bodies.
If this were the case, and if it really is the case, these beings shouldn't have any memory or morals, they would be zombies, so to speak, but I haven't seen any of those to this day.
I have read this statement by Steiner before, and it is not conclusive.
Why would the infinitely wise cosmos allow such demons to inhale into human bodies?

Guney,

I think we should differentiate here between Ahriman, Lucifer, Asuras. Ahriman influences the etheric body through the intellectual soul, Lucifer influences the astral body through the sentient soul, and the Asuras influence the physical body through the consciousness soul (and through it, the "I").

Ashvin,
Could you please say how this is applicable to the specific question MS was asked, or, in general, why you bring attention to this differentiation?

Federica,

I'm really not sure if it's applicable to the question to MS, i.e. the question of 'ego-less' beings or kids conceived outside of the natural course. It might be related but, if so, I have no clear idea how.

Since Guney raised the question of the "I", it occurred to me she might be thinking of the Asuric beings who directly undermine the "I" and asking why the wise Divine powers would allow such a thing. In any case, I was trying to address Guney's last question in some way and not the one to MS.

Fundamentally speaking, man is still working at this unconscious transformation of the physical body, at the development of the consciousness soul. And in the age now, approaching, those spiritual Beings known as the Asuras will creep into the consciousness soul and therewith into the human ‘I’ or ego — for the ‘I’ lights up in the consciousness soul. The Asuras will generate evil with a far mightier force than was wielded by the Satanic powers in the Atlantean epoch or by the Luciferic Spirits in the Lemurian epoch.

In the course of the Earth-period man will cast away all the evil brought to him by the Luciferic Spirits together with the blessing of freedom. The evil brought by the Ahrimanic Spirits can be shed in the course of karma. But the evil brought by the Asuric powers cannot be expunged in this way. Whereas the good Spirits instituted pain and suffering, illness and death in order that despite the possibility of evil, man's evolution may still advance, whereas the good Spirits made possible the working of karma to the end that the Ahrimanic powers might be resisted and the evil made good, it will not be so easy to counter the Asuric powers as earth-existence takes its course. For these Asuric Spirits will prompt what has been seized hold of by them, namely the very core of man's being, the consciousness soul together with the ‘I’, to unite with earthly materiality. Fragment after fragment will be torn out of the ‘I’, and in the same measure in which the Asuric Spirits establish themselves in the consciousness soul, man must leave parts of his existence behind on the earth. What thus becomes the prey of the Asuric powers will be irretrievably lost. Not that the whole man need become their victim — but parts of his spirit will be torn away by the Asuric powers. These Asuric powers are heralded to-day by the prevailing tendency to live wholly in the material world and to be oblivious of the realty of spiritual beings and spiritual worlds.

[Güney27]

Guney,

I think we should differentiate here between Ahriman, Lucifer, Asuras. Ahriman influences the etheric body through the intellectual soul, Lucifer influences the astral body through the sentient soul, and the Asuras influence the physical body through the consciousness soul (and through it, the "I").

Ashvin,
Could you please say how this is applicable to the specific question MS was asked, or, in general, why you bring attention to this differentiation?

Federica,

I'm really not sure if it's applicable to the question to MS, i.e. the question of 'ego-less' beings or kids conceived outside of the natural course. It might be related but, if so, I have no clear idea how.

Since Guney raised the question of the "I", it occurred to me she might be thinking of the Asuric beings who directly undermine the "I" and asking why the wise Divine powers would allow such a thing. In any case, I was trying to address Guney's last question in some way and not the one to MS.

Fundamentally speaking, man is still working at this unconscious transformation of the physical body, at the development of the consciousness soul. And in the age now, approaching, those spiritual Beings known as the Asuras will creep into the consciousness soul and therewith into the human ‘I’ or ego — for the ‘I’ lights up in the consciousness soul. The Asuras will generate evil with a far mightier force than was wielded by the Satanic powers in the Atlantean epoch or by the Luciferic Spirits in the Lemurian epoch.

In the course of the Earth-period man will cast away all the evil brought to him by the Luciferic Spirits together with the blessing of freedom. The evil brought by the Ahrimanic Spirits can be shed in the course of karma. But the evil brought by the Asuric powers cannot be expunged in this way. Whereas the good Spirits instituted pain and suffering, illness and death in order that despite the possibility of evil, man's evolution may still advance, whereas the good Spirits made possible the working of karma to the end that the Ahrimanic powers might be resisted and the evil made good, it will not be so easy to counter the Asuric powers as earth-existence takes its course. For these Asuric Spirits will prompt what has been seized hold of by them, namely the very core of man's being, the consciousness soul together with the ‘I’, to unite with earthly materiality. Fragment after fragment will be torn out of the ‘I’, and in the same measure in which the Asuric Spirits establish themselves in the consciousness soul, man must leave parts of his existence behind on the earth. What thus becomes the prey of the Asuric powers will be irretrievably lost. Not that the whole man need become their victim — but parts of his spirit will be torn away by the Asuric powers. These Asuric powers are heralded to-day by the prevailing tendency to live wholly in the material world and to be oblivious of the realty of spiritual beings and spiritual worlds.

I'm a Boy (:

[Federica]

Right, but my confusion is to why people like Steiner and MS with such great spiritual understanding of spacetime as an intellectual construct would still feel like the spiritual spectrum can be found by humans traveling certain distances in space either towards the heavens or into the atmosphere or core of planets and stars. I suppose Cleric’s answer is really the best one, and in a sense they were underestimating the ability of the intellect to spread itself across infinite spatial directions without completely collapsing and giving way to the underlying spiritual powers at work. In other words, they felt that the psychic transformation from simply venturing out into such unknown territories, which is surely a significant influence, would compromise the intellect’s sensory integrity (and it probably does to some extent). But perhaps the intellect is much more Ahrimanically fortified from such psychic influences than they even imagined possible at that time. Although at the time MS gave that lecture, the US had already landed on the Moon and come back (which btw India just did a few days ago to great celebration, as a sign that the intellect continues to pride itself on ‘conquering’ space, even returning to the same spaces over and over again for the pride of nations/ethnicity, rather than seeking inner transformation). I suppose the occult constitution of the Moon is different from that of Mars, insofar as the former is even more hardened than the Earth in its constitution while the latter is much less hardened, as you mentioned. Maybe that's why MS felt the Mars trip, unlike the Moon, would lead to complete entanglement.

Ashvin,

I don't think that Steiner felt that one can make spiritual discoveries through space or geological exploration. He might have been unclear, as Cleric says, like for example when he speaks of Mars without clarifying that he is speaking of the whole planet context, and not of its mineral shadow. But how is this the same thing?

I guess he was so immersed in the spiritual world, it was so obvious for him to refer to the full reality of Mars, not just its physicality, and that people around him would get that, especially speaking to an audience in Dornach. After all, one could have expected that they would have developed a minimum level of Anthroposophy-friendly listening, at least. And for Scaligero, I imagine he had a good understanding as well, as shown by the 1964 quote you shared. But in answering that Mars question, he simply followed the words of Steiner, and yes, maybe he didn't think of any other possible interpretation.

Could you say more about the idea that RS and MS felt that space exploration would compromise the intellect? I don't see how this shows. Also, why is the Moon more hardened than Earth? I thought no sphere was more hardened, or mineralized, than Earth (as I mentioned in my other post today on how I intend Earth-ness). Thank you!

[AshvinP]

Ashvin,
Could you please say how this is applicable to the specific question MS was asked, or, in general, why you bring attention to this differentiation?

Federica,

I'm really not sure if it's applicable to the question to MS, i.e. the question of 'ego-less' beings or kids conceived outside of the natural course. It might be related but, if so, I have no clear idea how.

Since Guney raised the question of the "I", it occurred to me she might be thinking of the Asuric beings who directly undermine the "I" and asking why the wise Divine powers would allow such a thing. In any case, I was trying to address Guney's last question in some way and not the one to MS.

Fundamentally speaking, man is still working at this unconscious transformation of the physical body, at the development of the consciousness soul. And in the age now, approaching, those spiritual Beings known as the Asuras will creep into the consciousness soul and therewith into the human ‘I’ or ego — for the ‘I’ lights up in the consciousness soul. The Asuras will generate evil with a far mightier force than was wielded by the Satanic powers in the Atlantean epoch or by the Luciferic Spirits in the Lemurian epoch.

In the course of the Earth-period man will cast away all the evil brought to him by the Luciferic Spirits together with the blessing of freedom. The evil brought by the Ahrimanic Spirits can be shed in the course of karma. But the evil brought by the Asuric powers cannot be expunged in this way. Whereas the good Spirits instituted pain and suffering, illness and death in order that despite the possibility of evil, man's evolution may still advance, whereas the good Spirits made possible the working of karma to the end that the Ahrimanic powers might be resisted and the evil made good, it will not be so easy to counter the Asuric powers as earth-existence takes its course. For these Asuric Spirits will prompt what has been seized hold of by them, namely the very core of man's being, the consciousness soul together with the ‘I’, to unite with earthly materiality. Fragment after fragment will be torn out of the ‘I’, and in the same measure in which the Asuric Spirits establish themselves in the consciousness soul, man must leave parts of his existence behind on the earth. What thus becomes the prey of the Asuric powers will be irretrievably lost. Not that the whole man need become their victim — but parts of his spirit will be torn away by the Asuric powers. These Asuric powers are heralded to-day by the prevailing tendency to live wholly in the material world and to be oblivious of the realty of spiritual beings and spiritual worlds.

I'm a Boy (:

Hmm... I have no idea why I assumed you were female this whole time. Sorry about that!

[AshvinP]

Right, but my confusion is to why people like Steiner and MS with such great spiritual understanding of spacetime as an intellectual construct would still feel like the spiritual spectrum can be found by humans traveling certain distances in space either towards the heavens or into the atmosphere or core of planets and stars. I suppose Cleric’s answer is really the best one, and in a sense they were underestimating the ability of the intellect to spread itself across infinite spatial directions without completely collapsing and giving way to the underlying spiritual powers at work. In other words, they felt that the psychic transformation from simply venturing out into such unknown territories, which is surely a significant influence, would compromise the intellect’s sensory integrity (and it probably does to some extent). But perhaps the intellect is much more Ahrimanically fortified from such psychic influences than they even imagined possible at that time. Although at the time MS gave that lecture, the US had already landed on the Moon and come back (which btw India just did a few days ago to great celebration, as a sign that the intellect continues to pride itself on ‘conquering’ space, even returning to the same spaces over and over again for the pride of nations/ethnicity, rather than seeking inner transformation). I suppose the occult constitution of the Moon is different from that of Mars, insofar as the former is even more hardened than the Earth in its constitution while the latter is much less hardened, as you mentioned. Maybe that's why MS felt the Mars trip, unlike the Moon, would lead to complete entanglement.

Ashvin,

I don't think that Steiner felt that one can make spiritual discoveries through space or geological exploration. He might have been unclear, as Cleric says, like for example when he speaks of Mars without clarifying that he is speaking of the whole planet context, and not of its mineral shadow. But how is this the same thing?

Federica,

In Steiner's case, I was thinking of the 'negative space' one would find when approaching or going into the Sun, which Cleric also mentioned.

A better age than ours certainly entertained this idea. Its people knew that the sun was not a gigantic gas stove, that there was not merely an empty space up there, but less than space, a negative space. Our physicists would get the surprise of their lives if they were to travel to the sun. They would not find the imagined gas ball, would perceive nothing, not even space, but merely left-out space, an energy or force that absorbs space. This force exists. Space is everywhere. We just have to be able to imagine the “less-than-space.” In the meantime, we at least know that “less-than-no-money” means debts.

Space has its boundaries, and negative space collects the light, which cannot pass through the negative emptiness, but is rayed back. Thus the sun becomes visible. Light is everywhere. What we see as the sun is only an entity that rays back, an apparatus that reflects the light.
...
(another lecture) Many people felt this in the right way and also used appropriate images for this. They said to themselves: Once upon a time, man looked out into the heavenly spaces; he saw the Sun, but not as we see it now. Today there are physicists who think that out there in the universe there swims a large sphere of gaseous matter. I have frequently said that they would be astonished if they could build a world airship and reach the Sun, for where they suppose the existence of a gaseous sphere, they would find negative space, which would transport them in a moment not only into Nothing, but beyond Nothing, far beyond the sphere of Nothing.

But to be clear, I think Steiner is correct to point towards the spiritual reality and actually the insight of 'negative space' somewhat corresponds to the physical plane as well, in so far as we have discovered collapsed stars that form black holes. Nevertheless, it is still possible that Steiner imagined going out into space beyond a certain distance, or perhaps into the interior of the Earth as well, would make it impossible to perceive only material sensory perceptions anymore. I’m not really sure about that and I don’t think anything he lectured makes it definitely the case. But even if it is, it’s not very important because the physical spectrum is actually the most difficult for clairvoyant capacities to penetrate and so we should expect a few missteps or errors here and there. If anything, that reassures us we are dealing with a legitimate science of the spirit and not just dogmatic claims to spiritual knowledge of anything and everything that could possibly exist. Cleric actually touched on this topic some time ago as well in response to findingblanks. So in that sense, my confusion was not very justified in Steiner’s case and I simply had to think about the nature of spiritual perception more.

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The other thing is that the physical phenomena is not that easy to trace directly from spiritual perception. This has to do with the fact that we penetrate the spiritual world from within outwards. We first begin to see our own soul structure - how ideas, desires, opinions, etc. shape our individual life. Gradually we begin to see the higher order spiritual processes, such as those that weave in the collective being of a nation and its language. As we go in that direction (towards the universal), things become perceptible also in the opposite direction - towards the fragmentary. We are mislead by our sensory perceptions that we know the physical world. In fact we're very far from the actual reality of the physical world. We're midway between the universal and the fragmentary and these two poles actually form a unity. This explains why it's much more difficult to say anything about the structure of the cell, molecules, atoms and so on, than it is about the soul, the astral body, the soul organs. These latter are much more immediate to us. The former we know only through abstract intellect. We practically use our scientific imagination to add details to the sensory perceptions. I don't say this to suggest that there's nothing in the Spiritual world behind cells and atoms - indeed there is. But the experiential reality of them is much different and accessible only through the highest forms of consciousness. Clairvoyance doesn't learn about atom by some spiritual vision that resembles a hi-tech microscope. We only learn about physical reality when we experience the world from the perspective of the highest spiritual beings, which so to speak, have sacrificed their spiritual substance, such that it becomes the arena of a metamorphic process.

On top of that, as Cleric said before, we only feel it's 'obvious' now that there are solid physical structures beyond the Earth's atmosphere because we have traveled to some and sent people up there. There would have been no reason to doubt anything Steiner said in that respect at his time since it all corresponds well to spiritual scientific principles that are certainly valid. Space and mineral appearances are Maya and it's only easy to say now that those appearances would probably remain intact after the fact.

I guess he was so immersed in the spiritual world, it was so obvious for him to refer to the full reality of Mars, not just its physicality, and that people around him would get that, especially speaking to an audience in Dornach. After all, one could have expected that they would have developed a minimum level of Anthroposophy-friendly listening, at least. And for Scaligero, I imagine he had a good understanding as well, as shown by the 1964 quote you shared. But in answering that Mars question, he simply followed the words of Steiner, and yes, maybe he didn't think of any other possible interpretation.

Could you say more about the idea that RS and MS felt that space exploration would compromise the intellect? I don't see how this shows. Also, why is the Moon more hardened than Earth? I thought no sphere was more hardened, or mineralized, than Earth (as I mentioned in my other post today on how I intend Earth-ness). Thank you!

That they felt it would compromise the intellect’s sensory capacity is just my speculation and I’m not really sure if that’s the reason. But if someone like MS thought the surface of Mars would be experienced in a completely viscous fluidic state, then there must be some reasoning behind it. I’m still confused as to why he said that even after the American probes landed and transmitted data from the hard surface. I know you offered a few explanations as well, but I'm just not sure.

In the occult sense, the Moon had to separate from the Earth during Lemuria because its lower vibrations were causing a too rapid densification of the living forms that was slowing down evolution (the Sun earlier separated because it was causing a too rapid evaporation of form). So the Earth’s state can now be understood as primarily a balancing between the Sun and the Moon influences which now work on it from outside.

Many of you, in reflecting upon what we have said in the last few days about the evolution of the earth and the solar system in relation to man, will have encountered what seems to you a curious contradiction of many present-day highly prized notions. You will have said to yourselves, “Yesterday we heard that the worst forces in evolution were connected with the moon, that when the moon separated from the earth the worst forces went out with it, and that only through this did the earth achieve a condition in which man could pursue his evolution. When we hear all this, what about the romantic aspect of the moon, what about all the poetry that speaks with such true feeling of the moon's wonderful influences upon man?”

This is only an apparent contradiction. It is resolved if we do not regard the facts one-sidedly, if we place the whole complex of facts before our souls. It is certainly true that if we examined the physical mass of the moon we would find that it was not fitted to support life as we know it here on earth. We must also say that everything of an etheric nature that is connected with the moon and its physical substances appears in large part inferior, even decadent, when compared with the etheric in our own corporeality. Furthermore, if we should observe the astral nature of the individual moon-beings clairvoyantly — and we are entirely justified in speaking of them — we would be convinced that the worst and basest feelings that we have on earth are as nothing compared to what is found on the moon. Thus, in respect of the astral, the etheric, and the physical parts of the moon, we may speak of beings, of elements, that had to be expelled so that our earth could pursue its way, free from injurious influences.

But now we must recognize another fact. We must not forget that we cannot simply stop with what is base or evil, for everything that becomes base or evil in evolution is subject to a significant fact. As long as this is at all possible, everything that has sunk deep down into lower spheres must be purified through other, more perfect beings, must be raised up and purged, so that it may again be used in the economy of the universe. If we find a place in the cosmos where especially base beings congregate, we may be sure that with these baser beings are connected other higher ones, who have so great a power for the good, the beautiful, and the noble that they are fitted to lead even the lowest forces toward the good. It is true that all the basest things are connected with the moon's existence, but on the other hand, very high beings also are connected with it. We already know, for example, that the high spiritual personality of Yahweh dwells on the moon. So exalted a being, possessed of such power and glory, has under him vast hosts of ministering beings of a benevolent nature. We must understand that, although the basest forces departed from the earth with the moon, there also remained connected with the moon certain beings who are capable of transforming the bad into good, the ugly into beauty. They could not have done this had they left the ugly in the earth; they had to withdraw it.

[Federica]

Federica, thanks for providing these additional interesting details on your viewpoint. I don't really disagree with anything you state, to the extent that I am understanding it properly.

Ashvin,

In fact I didn’t add any details on my viewpoint. This is the first time I’ve written something about how I understand “Earth”, and what I've written is my main understanding. It may be wrong, but if it is, it’s mainly wrong. Not that some details are wrong. Also, what do you mean by “I don’t really disagree”?

I think it is helpful here to establish a principled foundation in terms of Earth's evolutionary goals, into which then your more subtle details and nuances can be added for higher resolution. As you know, the evolutionary task of Earth is to develop free and loving I-beings. Practically that begins with the development of objective consciousness into which the Spirit awakens. So I think it is best to characterize the Earth planetary sphere as that where objective consciousness is cultivated, which is of course a quality of the Soul, but not only of feeling. Rather it is a certain harmonic relation between the activities of will, feeling, and thinking. All the Time-layers of the spirit-soul-body structure are laminated together on the perceptual plane.

In one of the preceding descriptions, the great development of humanity through the seven stages of consciousness from Saturn to Vulcan has been compared with the progress through life between birth and death, through infancy, childhood, and so on, to old age. One can extend this comparison further. As among contemporary humanity, men of different ages do not only follow upon one another, but also exist side by side, so it is with the development of the stages of consciousness, The aged man, the mature man or the mature woman, the youth, travel through life side by side. Thus the ancestors of man existed on Saturn not only as beings with the dull Saturn consciousness, but also along with these as beings which had already developed the higher stages of consciousness. When the Saturn development began, there already existed natures with Sun consciousness, others with image consciousness (Moon consciousness) those with a consciousness similar to the present consciousness of man [objective consciousness], then a fourth kind with self-conscious (psychic) image consciousness, a fifth with self-conscious (supra-psychic) object consciousness, and a sixth with creative (spiritual) consciousness.

For the modern consciousness soul, it is even to the point where we delude ourselves into believing all phenomenal manifestations belong to the same field of action, obeying the same ‘laws’. But even basic thoughtful reflection shows that is not the case, for example, we know the plant form obeys ‘life-laws’ in addition to mineral laws, the animal form obeys soul-laws in addition to the life and mineral laws, and the human form also obeys idea-laws in addition. Only the mineral laws are directly reflected in perceptual transformations, though, so we generally ignore the other ones which are supersensible and conclude that all living and ideal phenomena somehow emerge from the mineral level. The main Earthly task is to freely make these higher laws, which are moral in character, more transparent on the perceptual plane. Right now we have mastered the mineral forces because they are most transparent to our "I" (although we have lost their moral character), and later we will also master the life forces of the plant kingdom, soul forces of the animal kingdom, and ideal forces of the human kingdom.

There was a time when all the planetary spheres of our Solar system were merged together within the Sun, but then they gradually separated off so that they could become appropriate arenas of development of various beings and Earth separated to become the point balance for this critical I-development that brings increasing moral transparency to the World. The details are pretty complex and I’m sure further occult research of the primordial ages would reveal even more details, but right now we are only interested in the basic principle at work. Brian Gray speaks about how this reality is embedded in the Goldilocks and 3 bears legend, where the girl finds the porridge, beds, and chairs that are neither too hot nor too cold, neither too soft nor too hard, neither too large nor too small, but “just right”. Earth is the arena of development that is “just right” for the I-development after the other spheres are separated off. This diagram may help, as it shows how the Earth sphere links together the regions of thought with the objective perceptual plane through the etheric region, i.e. the gradient of organic biology.




The following quote provides a pretty clear and concise description of why this separation of the spheres happened during the Earth's evolution.

In the previous pages nothing has been said about our Solar System, and of the different planets which compose it, because it was not until the Earth Period was reached that the present differentiation was made. The Earth Period is the acme of diversification, and although we have been speaking of only one class of virgin spirits-- those who, in the strictest and most limited sense, are concerned with the Earth evolution--there are in reality seven "Rays" or streams of life, all pursuing different evolutions, yet all belonging to the original class of virgin spirits to which our humanity belongs. In the previous Periods all of these different sub-classes or Rays found a suitable environment for their evolution on the same planet. But, in the Earth Period, conditions became such that in order to provide for each class the degree of heat and the vibration necessary for its particular phase of evolution, they were segregated on different planets, at varying distances from the Sun--the central source of life. This is the raison d'etre of our System and all other Solar Systems in the Universe.

Before proceeding with the description of evolution of our humanity on the Earth after its separation from the central Sun, it is necessary for the maintenance of sequential order in the description to explain the differentiation which scattered the planets of our System in space. Active manifestation--particularly in the Physical World--depends upon separateness; upon the limitation of life by form. But during the interim between Periods and Revolutions the marked distinction between form and life ceases. This applies not only to man and the lower kingdoms, but to the Worlds and Globes which are the basis of form for the evolving life. Only the seed-atoms and the nuclei or centers of the World-Globes remain--all else is one homogenous substance. There is but one Spirit pervading space. Life and Form, its positive and negative poles, are one.

… To express himself in the dense physical world, it was necessary for man to evolve a suitable dense body. In a world like this he must have a body with limbs, organs, a muscular system by means of which to move about; also a brain to direct and co-ordinate his movements. If the conditions had been different the body would have been modified accordingly.

Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception (Illustrated) (p. 244). Kindle Edition.

So the “I” awakens to itself on Earth initially through the reflections of the physical sensory organism, i.e. objective consciousness. The various forces are then all merged together on the perceptual plane, but inwardly they are differentiated into will, feeling, and thinking, sensing. Through higher development, which is a ‘condensing’ of the potential that everyone will unfold over more outspread iterations, we can permeate our objective thinking-sensing consciousness with the life forces (imagination), soul forces (inspiration), and idea forces (intuition). Or we could say we are enlivening the soul body, ensouling the life body, and idealizing the physical body. When we bring these forces into a more harmonious relation inwardly, we are also able to differentiate them on the perceptual plane, i.e. to perceive how the various forces interweave to objectively manifest the perceptual phenomena of experience. Of course, we shouldn’t imagine force-beams that are swirling around and creating objects, but rather we are speaking about how they condense through the nested Time-spectrum to intentionally weave together our individual and collective destinies.

I suspect that this Earth development, when it sufficiently spiritualizes the dense perceptual plane including our physical-etheric bodies, will then allow for the inhabitants of the other spheres to rejoin the human life wave on future planetary incarnations and develop their I-being in freedom and love. Although, since the time of Christ, the evolution is not only happening on Earth but also perhaps within the other spheres, as we see with the case of Buddha inspiring the Mars inhabitants. The Earth sphere is actually an interference of the activity occurring through all the other spheres of the Solar system (originally united), which we travel through after death and bring back their influences to the perceptual plane in new incarnations, so to speak. So we can’t really understand our Earthly development as anything isolated from what is happening on the other spheres as well, since they all belong to a unified karmic organism. We all have our tasks to carry out within this organism. At the end of Solar evolution, all the inhabitants will be integrated and attain their true individualized humanity as Spirits of Freedom and Love.

Maybe we shall clarify what we put in the expression 'occult meaning of Earth' and maybe I misunderstood your initial question. I see here that you are referring to the Earth evolutionary period, while in my post I have focused on the Earth-being, which is why I spoke of the different quality of soul expressed by the Earth-being in relation to the other planets. Of course, the two occult meanings of Earth are very related, but what’s in between the two is the evolution of the other planets. These are all undergoing a parallel, though non self-similar evolutionary process, I suppose, so if we want to speak of the occult evolutionary period called Earth, as you do, then yes, we include all planets, but if we want to speak of the occult Earth-being within the current Earth period, then we need to differentiate it from the other planets, which is what I was doing above. So for example when you say:

"As you know, the evolutionary task of Earth is to develop free and loving I-beings."

I understand that you are referring to the evolutionary task of the Earth period, and you are not saying that this task is the peculiarity of our Earthly humanity? I suppose this is the meaning, because I understand that also Mars men, for example, are supposed to accomplish this same task during their current evolution.