Symbolic thinking, Anthroposophy and Transhumanism

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Güney27
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Symbolic thinking, Anthroposophy and Transhumanism

Post by Güney27 »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:59 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:25 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:20 pm
The quote is nutty in itself but I have listened to Powell with all his Covid conspiracy theories which we know are utterly out to lunch.

Steiner's PoF framework is rock solid. His broader esoteric musings take some time to get your head around but for the most part appear to be on the mark. But then there are the likes of Powell who depart from the secure waters and lead one right over the edge. One must not disengage the BS detector in all of this.

Practically anything relating concretely to spiritual reality is going to sound "nutter" to a person still thinking abstractly, i.e. who only wants to build a neat theoretical system out of spiritual concepts that 'feel right' to our 'BS detector' rather than trace how they actually permeate our individual and collective experiential stream of evolution in a phenomenological way. What I quoted from Powell is also found in Steiner and many other esoteric Christians, like Judith Von Halle, as Federica mentioned. So it seems you are simply voicing conclusive opinions from a lack of familiarity with what is being discussed.

At the end of the day, Anthony, these are all sidetracks you are being led down which give a convenient excuse to avoid putting in serious work towards developing living thinking, which is simply an experience of the reality of our intuitive thinking as intended by PoF. I am not saying this to be combatative or difficult, but because it is evident from many of your comments that this is still the real issue. The question is whether you are willing to put in that serious inner work, with the help of others on this forum, to the best of our current abilities, because otherwise, it is better to avoid esoteric spirituality and science altogether. We can only end up with radical misconceptions and fantasies which lead us far astray if we pursue the latter without the former.
Hi Ashvin,

As a 19-year-old person who has not been thinking about the world intellectually and abstractly for that long, I also have quite a hard time "attaining the intuitions that lie in esoteric scriptures.
But if we think about it from an esoteric perspective, it's kind of normal, isn't it?

We are currently in the midst of Earth evolution, Saturn Sun and Moon are the states that are identified as involution as those are the "fall" or in other words the materialization of spirit.
Earth is the state of the material in which we gain self-awareness (and begin to classify everything intellectually and logically), and from here it's back towards spiritualization.
So the beginning and the end are the same.

This can then be symbolically packed into pictures. I think that's what you mean by symbolic thinking.
You mention symbolic thinking, can you tell the exact difference between symbolic thinking and
Explain intuitive thinking?
How exactly can one experience a text intuitively, through a conventional way of reading?


On to the other topic. I have seen that there are books by anthroposophists about a covid conspiracy. I don't want to judge this topic, but I think it's a mistake to blindly follow the mainstream narrative and take opinions as facts.
~Only true love can heal broken hearts~
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Güney27
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Güney27 »

I want to add this to the discussion.
A quote from Master omraam mikhaël aïvanhov.

,,All the practices of a spiritual teaching – meditation, prayer and so on – have only one purpose, and that is to give less space to the personality so as to give the individuality more opportunity to express itself.1 That is what true silence is. To achieve silence on the physical plane is easy, all you have to do is close the doors and windows or stop up your ears. But to achieve silence in your thoughts and feelings, that is much more difficult. Because a person’s inner self is an open house, where crowds of people arrive all at once to express themselves and make their demands."
~Omraam mikhaël aïvanhov
~Only true love can heal broken hearts~
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AshvinP
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 7:07 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:59 pm
Anthony66 wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:25 pm
The quote is nutty in itself but I have listened to Powell with all his Covid conspiracy theories which we know are utterly out to lunch.

Steiner's PoF framework is rock solid. His broader esoteric musings take some time to get your head around but for the most part appear to be on the mark. But then there are the likes of Powell who depart from the secure waters and lead one right over the edge. One must not disengage the BS detector in all of this.

Practically anything relating concretely to spiritual reality is going to sound "nutter" to a person still thinking abstractly, i.e. who only wants to build a neat theoretical system out of spiritual concepts that 'feel right' to our 'BS detector' rather than trace how they actually permeate our individual and collective experiential stream of evolution in a phenomenological way. What I quoted from Powell is also found in Steiner and many other esoteric Christians, like Judith Von Halle, as Federica mentioned. So it seems you are simply voicing conclusive opinions from a lack of familiarity with what is being discussed.

At the end of the day, Anthony, these are all sidetracks you are being led down which give a convenient excuse to avoid putting in serious work towards developing living thinking, which is simply an experience of the reality of our intuitive thinking as intended by PoF. I am not saying this to be combatative or difficult, but because it is evident from many of your comments that this is still the real issue. The question is whether you are willing to put in that serious inner work, with the help of others on this forum, to the best of our current abilities, because otherwise, it is better to avoid esoteric spirituality and science altogether. We can only end up with radical misconceptions and fantasies which lead us far astray if we pursue the latter without the former.
Hi Ashvin,

As a 19-year-old person who has not been thinking about the world intellectually and abstractly for that long, I also have quite a hard time "attaining the intuitions that lie in esoteric scriptures.
But if we think about it from an esoteric perspective, it's kind of normal, isn't it?

We are currently in the midst of Earth evolution, Saturn Sun and Moon are the states that are identified as involution as those are the "fall" or in other words the materialization of spirit.
Earth is the state of the material in which we gain self-awareness (and begin to classify everything intellectually and logically), and from here it's back towards spiritualization.
So the beginning and the end are the same.

This can then be symbolically packed into pictures. I think that's what you mean by symbolic thinking.
You mention symbolic thinking, can you tell the exact difference between symbolic thinking and
Explain intuitive thinking?
How exactly can one experience a text intuitively, through a conventional way of reading?


On to the other topic. I have seen that there are books by anthroposophists about a covid conspiracy. I don't want to judge this topic, but I think it's a mistake to blindly follow the mainstream narrative and take opinions as facts.

Guney,

I started drafting a response and may return to it later. But, in the meantime, perhaps it would be more helpful to take a different approach and contemplate the following presentation on mythology. It is a great example of how we can start to think symbolically through the spiritual involution and evolution of Earth and humanity. Even this sort of symbolic thinking is only a preparatory stage that helps us develop inner soul forces that will eventually translate into the inner experience of thinking, i.e. the esoteric literature, myths, scriptures, legends, traditions, cultural institutions of all sorts, and eventually, the natural world we perceive around us will be experienced more and more as the intimate flow of our own destiny across the scales of existence, in the sense that these forms originally flowed forth from our activity and can flow again through our activity to shape the future. It is that intimate inner experience of outer forms/processes, individual, cultural, and natural, that we can call imaginative, inspired, and intuitive thinking that is done consciously.


"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2023 7:07 pm We are currently in the midst of Earth evolution, Saturn Sun and Moon are the states that are identified as involution as those are the "fall" or in other words the materialization of spirit.
Earth is the state of the material in which we gain self-awareness (and begin to classify everything intellectually and logically), and from here it's back towards spiritualization.
So the beginning and the end are the same.

This can then be symbolically packed into pictures. I think that's what you mean by symbolic thinking.
You mention symbolic thinking, can you tell the exact difference between symbolic thinking and
Explain intuitive thinking?
How exactly can one experience a text intuitively, through a conventional way of reading?

Guney,

I hope you have a chance to watch the video on mythology. What follows is a more conceptual angle on symbolic thinking. It is always helpful to combine our conceptual study with an experiential aspect as well and approach the essential core of intuitive experience from a few different angles. Some people are good at taking a single angle of inquiry and, through sheer strength of willpower, investigating until most of its core meaning is mined. For people like me who lack that singular focus, however, it may be better to circulate through a few different angles of approach on any given topic. What you describe above how the beginning and end are essentially the same is exactly right, but to really strengthen our intuition for this process we need to steer our thinking through the curvatures of meaning as much as possible. Our thinking investigation can actually come to resemble the Cosmic and Earthly involution and evolution in that sense, since the latter is of course teased apart into many aeons, ages, epochs, and so forth. That is the only way inner perfection can arise as a result.

We are always thinking intuitively and we can get a somewhat clear sense of that in the experience of reading text or listening to music compared to other forms of outer experience. We can notice how the text does not present itself like most other outer objects, where the perceptual characteristics grab most of our attention. We don't get distracted following the curves of the black-and-white formations of text, but rather the text (in a language we have learned to resonate with) presents itself to us as a relatively meaningful whole. There is background intuition that everything we perceive audially or visually was structured through the ideational activity of other intelligent agents (including computer bots who were programmed by intelligent agents). That is even true of languages we haven't learned yet - we still have the intuition that we are confronting outer perceptions that have crystallized flowing intents. So we can leverage this intuition into gaining insight into the World as a whole.

A text isn't meant to be read intuitively, necessarily. Rather, we strive to become more conscious of how the text condenses from intuition into mental pictures, verbal concepts, and outer perceptions so that intuition can fulfill another function, namely that of lucid, precise, and communicable understanding which further clarifies, expands, and strengthens the intuition. It is a process of inner perfection. We should really try to sense how we are always engaged in this rhythmic process while reading through the text. Then we are able to increasingly maintain that intuition of the perfecting process in the background as we also understand the content of what was written. The normal intellect consistently loses the overall theme of the text/speech when analyzing its components, so it struggles to penetrate into deeper insights embedded within the speech. When we evolve our thinking on the path, however, it is like we are condensing what would take place over a much longer period of time into a relatively shorter period of time. Essentially, we are bringing more of our past experience and future potential - all of which is the intentional activity of human and higher beings - into the present. This is always what we are doing through the layers of our thinking, even if we are unaware of it, but higher thinking makes it more lucid and efficient by making it more conscious. Thus we can speak of someone on the initiatory path accomplishing in a single incarnation what would otherwise take 2, 3, or more incarnations.

But we should expect much more humble beginnings where, instead of reading through a spiritual text 10x to get its core insights, we only need to read it 4 or 5x to get those same insights. It all relates to increasing our resonance with the intentional structuring of the World content. We want to experience more and more of our states of being as a meaningful and archetypally structured Whole, like we do with speech and music, and to do that we must resonate with the intents that structure our existence. For example, if we are driving from point A to point B, the states of being through which we metamorphose will be constrained by the driving regulations that have been intentionally established i.e. speed limits, lane markings, stop signs, stoplights, and so forth. It is also constrained by the intentions of other drivers we share the road with. These intentions are not as transparent to us as our own intentions but they are relatively transparent because our ideational consciousness has a certain amount of resonance with the sort of activity that went into establishing the regulations. The driving regulations were, in turn, constrained by the natural landscape in which they were designed to apply, which is less transparent. Our metamorphosing states of being in the car from point A to point B will be constrained even more tightly by what we call the 'laws of nature' such as the force of gravity, but these are not at all transparent to our intuitive understanding, i.e. we can hardly resonate with the underlying activity. That is why we conceive of them as abstract and mechanical forces rather than the intentional ideational activity of concrete beings.

The first thing is always to begin differentiating the layers of our consciousness that are normally merged together. We don't need to worry about imaginatively or intuitively grasping a text or any particular outer perception like a tree, but rather seek to experientially awaken more and more to how our experience of the World's content is always intertwined with our variable modes of consciousness. In these differentiated modes of consciousness reside the intentional structuring of the Cosmos, of Nature, of Culture, and of our individual spirit-soul-body structure. 

Steiner wrote:But that is not the only reason why I have referred to this perspective; it was also to call attention to the importance of noting the ways consciousness is related to the world and to the fact that we can come to know the essential nature of certain things only by inquiring into the kind of consciousness involved. It is, for example, quite impossible to know anything of importance about the structure of the hierarchical order of higher spiritual beings unless we concern ourselves with their consciousness. If you go through the various lecture cycles, you will see what trouble was taken to characterize the consciousness of angels, archangels, and so on. For it is essential in any study to give careful thought to what constitutes the right approach. A person might say that he is quite familiar with the hierarchical order: first comes the human being, then the higher rank of angels, then the still higher archangels, then the archai, and so on. He writes them down in ascending order and claims to understand: each hierarchy is one step above the one before it. But if that were all one knew about these beings, one would know as little about the hierarchical order as one knows about the levels of a house from the fact that each higher story is superimposed upon the one below it; one could make a drawing that would fit both cases. What really matters is to note the salient facts in the case under study. We only know something about these higher beings if we are familiar with the state of consciousness in which the various hierarchies live and if we can describe it. This must form the basis of a study of them.

The same thing holds true in the study of human beings. We know very little indeed about our inner being if we can say nothing further on the subject of the sleeping state than that our ego and astral body are outside our physical and etheric bodies. Though that is true, it is a totally abstract pronouncement, since it conveys no more information about the difference between sleeping and waking than one possesses in the case of a full and an empty beer glass; in the one case there is beer in it, and in the other the beer is elsewhere. It is true enough that the ego and the astral body have left the physical and etheric bodies of a sleeping person, but we must be of a will to go on to ever further and more inclusive concrete insights. We try to do this, for example, when we describe the alternation of interest in the two states of consciousness.
...
I wanted to demonstrate with an example how nuances of consciousness show up in life, including nuances in actions of the will and in what we do. We need to become ever more fully aware that life really must consist of such nuances, that we have to relate differences in states of consciousness to everything we do. Sleeping and waking involve very marked differences. But there can also be a nuance of consciousness in which we are aware that a matter concerns not just ourselves but the surrounding world as well; another, in which we confront the world with awareness that we must tread gently; and still another in which we know that what we do must be done with ourselves alone, or only in the most intimate circle.

The concepts and ideas we garner from spiritual science really make a difference in life. They teach us to recognize subtle subjective differences, provided we aren't disposed to know them only from the usual standpoint, realizing instead that a serious concern with spiritual science makes us a gift of this capacity for practical tact. But that serious concern with spiritual science must be present. It is of course absent if we project into spiritual science the sensations, desires, and instincts that ordinarily prevail. If that is the case, what is derived from spiritual science amounts to little more than can be garnered from any other indifferent source of learning. I've been speaking of nuances of consciousness and saying that there are nuances within the waking states very close to sleep. But it can happen that a person lacks the inclination to concern himself with certain details and subtleties, as in the case of the coupon clipper in yesterday's lecture. One may enjoy reading books or lecture cycles, but experience a dwindling consciousness at certain places in the text, and drowsiness sets in; the conscientiousness required to overcome such a condition is simply not there to call upon.

So we should pay more attention to the nuances of consciousness throughout the day, and there are many opportunities to do so. But the intellect can only gain minimal resolution on these differentiations. We need concentration, meditation, and prayer to deepen our attentional capacity so we become more intuitively aware of our variable modes of consciousness, through the sorts of exercises discussed by Steiner, OMA, Klocek, Kuhlewinde, Tomberg, and now MS on this thread. We may even begin to awaken during dreams and sleep to some extent or at least have some remembrance of the sort of consciousness we possessed during those liminal spaces of our experience. We will start to notice how the fourfold convolutions represented by the terms Saturn, Sun, Moon, and Earth, physical-etheric-astral-ego, fire-air-water-earth, intuition-inspiration-imagination-intellect, the four dimensions of space-time, and so forth, are still slumbering in our experience from day-to-day and can be resurrected to waking conscious experience from within. All of the esoteric texts we think through, including Cleric's posts on this forum, are simply a means of kindling our conscious intuition for that intimate inner experience. It is all symbolic in that sense.


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(Salvator Mundi, Leonardo da Vinci, "Savior of the World" [by making it transparent])
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Federica »

I'm not sure why I constantly notice small mistakes and have an urge to correct them. Mostly I resist that urge. Surely I make many mistakes myself, for instance language mistakes, when I try to translate texts into approximate English. Still, I am put off when one publishes a presentation on Greek mythology, speaks of the goddess Artemis as a god, and even makes her thunder with an exaggeratly masculine fake voice. Not to be picky and too detail-oriented, but I really wonder, when one invites the listener to think like the Greek, with "robust imagination", how did one go about preparing the presentation by means of robust imagination, missing at the same time such an immediately evident fact? Immediately evident from illustrations, from accounts, from the myths themselves. How did one learn about the Greek gods in the first place? I wonder. Nobody is perfect, but if I had to present on mythology, make the gods come alive and impersonate them in stories, I would at least make sure to get a sense of who they are. At the very least, most charitable least, I would type their name in Wikipedia. Whoever has done that, knows instantly that Artemis is a goddess! It reminds me of an analogous but minor miss (not typo) I previously noticed, that one year later still lives in a corner of my soul: painter Artemisia Gentileschi was referred to (and still is) as a man. Very strangely, the misunderstood names are actually one and the same name. But this one miss about the goddess Artemis is so gross, I have to point it out. Again, it has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with respecting the myth and having the shrewdness, when one decides to re-call a being, to spend at least half a second orienting one's focus of attention and imagination to that being, before speaking on the being's behalf to teach the world something about imaginative cognition.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:10 pm I'm not sure why I constantly notice small mistakes and have an urge to correct them. Mostly I resist that urge. Surely I make many mistakes myself, for instance language mistakes, when I try to translate texts into approximate English. Still, I am put off when one publishes a presentation on Greek mythology, speaks of the goddess Artemis as a god, and even makes her thunder with an exaggeratly deep masculine voice. Not to be picky and too detail-oriented, but I really wonder, when one invites the listener to think like the Greek, with "robust imagination", how did one go about preparing the presentation by means of robust imagination, missing at the same time such an immediately evident fact? Immediately evident from illustrations, from accounts, from the myths themselves. How did one learn about the Greek gods in the first place? I wonder. Nobody is perfect, but if I had to present on mythology, make the gods come alive and impersonate them in stories, I would at least make sure to get a sense of who they are. At the very least, most charitable least, I would type their name in Wikipedia. Whoever has done that, knows instantly that Artemis is a goddess! It reminds me of an analogous but minor miss (not typo) I previously noticed, that one year later still lives in a corner of my soul: painter Artemisia Gentileschi was referred to as a man. Very strangely, the misunderstood names are actually one and the same name. But this one miss about the goddess Artemis is so gross, I have to point it out. Again, it has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with respecting the myth and having the shrewdness, when one decides to re-call a being, to spend at least half a second orienting one's focus of attention and imagination to that being, before speaking on the being's behalf to teach the world something about imaginative cognition.

I think the bold is a good thought to dwell on, Federica. What if I had to weave together a presentation on how ancient mythology reflects the deep truths of spiritual involution-evolution? Try actually to imagine doing it. I tried to do something similar in the early days of the forum with a few essays on "integral spiritual mythology", but I gave up about halfway through because it proved to be too complex, especially when I arrived at Greek mythology and all their humanly personified characters. Who knows how many mistakes are in those essays! And who knows what was going on with Linnell when he was preparing his presentation? Maybe he missed a cup of coffee, maybe he fell ill, maybe someone he knew fell ill, maybe he had a million other things to do at the same time, etc. It doesn't really matter what the reason is or whether there was any reason at all, because the point is that we are only hurting our own ability to resonate with the soul-life of others when we fail to think in this generous and charitable way about the small mistakes or even the big mistakes we notice in their spiritual activity. It is really important to cultivate the capacity of forgiveness and there's no better place to start than with the little mistakes and annoyances we encounter in others. I frequently try to do this when I'm driving and someone makes a really bonehead decision - "doesn't this guy know he can get someone killed by trying to get to his destination a little bit faster, weaving in and out of traffic? what right do such people have to be on the road??" That's all probably true, but it does me no good to think that way and thereby restrict my capacity to increase resonance with my fellow human beings. As you say in italics, these things can stick with us for a very long time and it is exactly the small thorns in our sides that we need to clear out first for higher development. These things are entirely within the creatively responsible sphere of our spiritual activity and the fact that it's so difficult to do in practice indicates to us that it's what we need to be doing.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:01 pm
Federica wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:10 pm I'm not sure why I constantly notice small mistakes and have an urge to correct them. Mostly I resist that urge. Surely I make many mistakes myself, for instance language mistakes, when I try to translate texts into approximate English. Still, I am put off when one publishes a presentation on Greek mythology, speaks of the goddess Artemis as a god, and even makes her thunder with an exaggeratly deep masculine voice. Not to be picky and too detail-oriented, but I really wonder, when one invites the listener to think like the Greek, with "robust imagination", how did one go about preparing the presentation by means of robust imagination, missing at the same time such an immediately evident fact? Immediately evident from illustrations, from accounts, from the myths themselves. How did one learn about the Greek gods in the first place? I wonder. Nobody is perfect, but if I had to present on mythology, make the gods come alive and impersonate them in stories, I would at least make sure to get a sense of who they are. At the very least, most charitable least, I would type their name in Wikipedia. Whoever has done that, knows instantly that Artemis is a goddess! It reminds me of an analogous but minor miss (not typo) I previously noticed, that one year later still lives in a corner of my soul: painter Artemisia Gentileschi was referred to as a man. Very strangely, the misunderstood names are actually one and the same name. But this one miss about the goddess Artemis is so gross, I have to point it out. Again, it has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with respecting the myth and having the shrewdness, when one decides to re-call a being, to spend at least half a second orienting one's focus of attention and imagination to that being, before speaking on the being's behalf to teach the world something about imaginative cognition.

I think the bold is a good thought to dwell on, Federica. What if I had to weave together a presentation on how ancient mythology reflects the deep truths of spiritual involution-evolution? Try actually to imagine doing it. I tried to do something similar in the early days of the forum with a few essays on "integral spiritual mythology", but I gave up about halfway through because it proved to be too complex, especially when I arrived at Greek mythology and all their humanly personified characters. Who knows how many mistakes are in those essays! And who knows what was going on with Linnell when he was preparing his presentation? Maybe he missed a cup of coffee, maybe he fell ill, maybe someone he knew fell ill, maybe he had a million other things to do at the same time, etc. It doesn't really matter what the reason is or whether there was any reason at all, because the point is that we are only hurting our own ability to resonate with the soul-life of others when we fail to think in this generous and charitable way about the small mistakes or even the big mistakes we notice in their spiritual activity. It is really important to cultivate the capacity of forgiveness and there's no better place to start than with the little mistakes and annoyances we encounter in others. I frequently try to do this when I'm driving and someone makes a really bonehead decision - "doesn't this guy know he can get someone killed by trying to get to his destination a little bit faster, weaving in and out of traffic? what right do such people have to be on the road??" That's all probably true, but it does me no good to think that way and thereby restrict my capacity to increase resonance with my fellow human beings. As you say in italics, these things can stick with us for a very long time and it is exactly the small thorns in our sides that we need to clear out first for higher development. These things are entirely within the creatively responsible sphere of our spiritual activity and the fact that it's so difficult to do in practice indicates to us that it's what we need to be doing.

Ashvin,

Your post addresses exclusively, and rightly, what my post tells about obstacles on my personal path, and attitudes I'd better assume. What you say is appropriate, which is why, as I mentioned, I mostly resist the urge to call out mistakes.

Now, without any intention to minimize or divert attention from what you are saying, that is correct and that I am to some extent aware of, can we also, in parallel, have a look at what this particular mistake inevitably tells about Lindell's approach? All mistakes are not equal, this is a truth. It's not the mistake in itself I am pointing to, just for the sake of it. It's that this particular mistake reveals a lack of respect towards other beings, and an approach that is incompatible with imaginative cognition, in my opinion (yes it's an opinion, I could have written "as I see it", but because it's the same meaning, I can just as well refer to my opinion).

This is a sign that calls for some attention when considering other content from this author. Because he preaches one thing and does another. This has little or nothing to do with mistakes due to simple ignorance, rush, or even mistaken interpretation of spiritual facts. I don't see that, in your mythology essays - correct me if I'm wrong - you put yourself in the name and place of the gods, speaking on their behalf as a way to preach imaginative cognition, while doing yourself the opposite at the same time. For this reason your comparison is unfitting.

Would you please also spend a word on that?
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:34 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:01 pm
Federica wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:10 pm I'm not sure why I constantly notice small mistakes and have an urge to correct them. Mostly I resist that urge. Surely I make many mistakes myself, for instance language mistakes, when I try to translate texts into approximate English. Still, I am put off when one publishes a presentation on Greek mythology, speaks of the goddess Artemis as a god, and even makes her thunder with an exaggeratly deep masculine voice. Not to be picky and too detail-oriented, but I really wonder, when one invites the listener to think like the Greek, with "robust imagination", how did one go about preparing the presentation by means of robust imagination, missing at the same time such an immediately evident fact? Immediately evident from illustrations, from accounts, from the myths themselves. How did one learn about the Greek gods in the first place? I wonder. Nobody is perfect, but if I had to present on mythology, make the gods come alive and impersonate them in stories, I would at least make sure to get a sense of who they are. At the very least, most charitable least, I would type their name in Wikipedia. Whoever has done that, knows instantly that Artemis is a goddess! It reminds me of an analogous but minor miss (not typo) I previously noticed, that one year later still lives in a corner of my soul: painter Artemisia Gentileschi was referred to as a man. Very strangely, the misunderstood names are actually one and the same name. But this one miss about the goddess Artemis is so gross, I have to point it out. Again, it has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with respecting the myth and having the shrewdness, when one decides to re-call a being, to spend at least half a second orienting one's focus of attention and imagination to that being, before speaking on the being's behalf to teach the world something about imaginative cognition.

I think the bold is a good thought to dwell on, Federica. What if I had to weave together a presentation on how ancient mythology reflects the deep truths of spiritual involution-evolution? Try actually to imagine doing it. I tried to do something similar in the early days of the forum with a few essays on "integral spiritual mythology", but I gave up about halfway through because it proved to be too complex, especially when I arrived at Greek mythology and all their humanly personified characters. Who knows how many mistakes are in those essays! And who knows what was going on with Linnell when he was preparing his presentation? Maybe he missed a cup of coffee, maybe he fell ill, maybe someone he knew fell ill, maybe he had a million other things to do at the same time, etc. It doesn't really matter what the reason is or whether there was any reason at all, because the point is that we are only hurting our own ability to resonate with the soul-life of others when we fail to think in this generous and charitable way about the small mistakes or even the big mistakes we notice in their spiritual activity. It is really important to cultivate the capacity of forgiveness and there's no better place to start than with the little mistakes and annoyances we encounter in others. I frequently try to do this when I'm driving and someone makes a really bonehead decision - "doesn't this guy know he can get someone killed by trying to get to his destination a little bit faster, weaving in and out of traffic? what right do such people have to be on the road??" That's all probably true, but it does me no good to think that way and thereby restrict my capacity to increase resonance with my fellow human beings. As you say in italics, these things can stick with us for a very long time and it is exactly the small thorns in our sides that we need to clear out first for higher development. These things are entirely within the creatively responsible sphere of our spiritual activity and the fact that it's so difficult to do in practice indicates to us that it's what we need to be doing.

Ashvin,

Your post addresses exclusively, and rightly, what my post tells about obstacles on my personal path, and attitudes I'd better assume. What you say is appropriate, which is why, as I mentioned, I mostly resist the urge to call out mistakes.

Now, without any intention to minimize or divert attention from what you are saying, that is correct and that I am to some extent aware of, can we also, in parallel, have a look at what this particular mistake inevitably tells about Lindell's approach? All mistakes are not equal, this is a truth. It's not the mistake in itself I am pointing to, just for the sake of it. It's that this particular mistake reveals a lack of respect towards other beings, and an approach that is incompatible with imaginative cognition, in my opinion (yes it's an opinion, I could have written "as I see it", but because it's the same meaning, I can just as well refer to my opinion).

This is a sign that calls for some attention when considering other content from this author. Because he preaches one thing and does another. To me, this is an alarm bell. This has little or nothing to do with mistakes due to simple ignorance, rush, or even mistaken interpretation of spiritual facts. I don't see that, in your mythology essays - correct me if I'm wrong - you put yourself in the name and place of the gods, as their representative, speaking on their behalf as way to preach imaginative cognition, while doing yourself the opposite at the same time. For this reason your comparison is unfitting.

Would you please also spend a word on that?

Federica,

My word on that would be that I completely disagree. I don't think it's a reasonable opinion under a completely secular approach, let alone a spiritual scientific one. With the latter, we know that isolated appearances fixed in time cannot form the basis of conclusive judgments, especially in the realm of ideational beings and their activity. I don't think Linnell was putting himself in the place of the Gods as their representative or "preaching imaginative cognition". He was simply trying to elucidate how Greek mythology prefigures the rise of modern intellectual thinking and the technology born from that thinking. That he put in the effort to do it somewhat artistically and with the voices is already more effort than I would have been willing to put into it. There is no basis for accusing some fundamental disrespect towards other beings or hypocrisy here - it was a trivial mistake of making Artemis into a god instead of a goddess, plain and simple. If you could point to something that indicated he completely misconstrued or misapplied the spiritual significance of Greek mythology, then that would be another story, but as it is there is no alarm bell to speak of, and it would be a great tragedy for us if we let that color our willingness and ability to contemplate his other work.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Federica
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:55 pm
Federica wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:34 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:01 pm


I think the bold is a good thought to dwell on, Federica. What if I had to weave together a presentation on how ancient mythology reflects the deep truths of spiritual involution-evolution? Try actually to imagine doing it. I tried to do something similar in the early days of the forum with a few essays on "integral spiritual mythology", but I gave up about halfway through because it proved to be too complex, especially when I arrived at Greek mythology and all their humanly personified characters. Who knows how many mistakes are in those essays! And who knows what was going on with Linnell when he was preparing his presentation? Maybe he missed a cup of coffee, maybe he fell ill, maybe someone he knew fell ill, maybe he had a million other things to do at the same time, etc. It doesn't really matter what the reason is or whether there was any reason at all, because the point is that we are only hurting our own ability to resonate with the soul-life of others when we fail to think in this generous and charitable way about the small mistakes or even the big mistakes we notice in their spiritual activity. It is really important to cultivate the capacity of forgiveness and there's no better place to start than with the little mistakes and annoyances we encounter in others. I frequently try to do this when I'm driving and someone makes a really bonehead decision - "doesn't this guy know he can get someone killed by trying to get to his destination a little bit faster, weaving in and out of traffic? what right do such people have to be on the road??" That's all probably true, but it does me no good to think that way and thereby restrict my capacity to increase resonance with my fellow human beings. As you say in italics, these things can stick with us for a very long time and it is exactly the small thorns in our sides that we need to clear out first for higher development. These things are entirely within the creatively responsible sphere of our spiritual activity and the fact that it's so difficult to do in practice indicates to us that it's what we need to be doing.

Ashvin,

Your post addresses exclusively, and rightly, what my post tells about obstacles on my personal path, and attitudes I'd better assume. What you say is appropriate, which is why, as I mentioned, I mostly resist the urge to call out mistakes.

Now, without any intention to minimize or divert attention from what you are saying, that is correct and that I am to some extent aware of, can we also, in parallel, have a look at what this particular mistake inevitably tells about Lindell's approach? All mistakes are not equal, this is a truth. It's not the mistake in itself I am pointing to, just for the sake of it. It's that this particular mistake reveals a lack of respect towards other beings, and an approach that is incompatible with imaginative cognition, in my opinion (yes it's an opinion, I could have written "as I see it", but because it's the same meaning, I can just as well refer to my opinion).

This is a sign that calls for some attention when considering other content from this author. Because he preaches one thing and does another. To me, this is an alarm bell. This has little or nothing to do with mistakes due to simple ignorance, rush, or even mistaken interpretation of spiritual facts. I don't see that, in your mythology essays - correct me if I'm wrong - you put yourself in the name and place of the gods, as their representative, speaking on their behalf as way to preach imaginative cognition, while doing yourself the opposite at the same time. For this reason your comparison is unfitting.

Would you please also spend a word on that?

Federica,

My word on that would be that I completely disagree. I don't think it's a reasonable opinion under a completely secular approach, let alone a spiritual scientific one. With the latter, we know that isolated appearances fixed in time cannot form the basis of conclusive judgments, especially in the realm of ideational beings and their activity. I don't think Linnell was putting himself in the place of the Gods as their representative or "preaching imaginative cognition". He was simply trying to elucidate how Greek mythology prefigures the rise of modern intellectual thinking and the technology born from that thinking. That he put in the effort to do it somewhat artistically and with the voices is already more effort than I would have been willing to put into it. There is no basis for accusing some fundamental disrespect towards other beings or hypocrisy here - it was a trivial mistake of making Artemis into a god instead of a goddess, plain and simple. If you could point to something that indicated he completely misconstrued or misapplied the spiritual significance of Greek mythology, then that would be another story, but as it is there is no alarm bell to speak of, and it would be a great tragedy for us if we let that color our willingness and ability to contemplate his other work.


Ashvin,

Firstly, please don't distort what I write. I never spoke of "conclusive judgments", but of "some attention". So when you do as if I had, you show objective bias. And what about the "great tragedy" you prefigure for people, like me, who would deprive themselves of contemplating Linnell's work? In the same way you are mindful not to lack charitable understanding towards Linnell, you should probably be mindful not to overload the board with a disproportionate monitum such as this one. Please, Ashvin, recover some measure in your words.

Secondly, you say that you don't think Linnell is "preaching imaginative cognition". Nonetheless, Linnell says very clearly: "I would like to invite you to think like an ancient Greek, that is, with a robust imagination, and to bring pictures to life". I would say, mine is a legitimate and very accurate characterisation of the latter. Do you still disagree that he preaches imaginative cognition?

So his message, from the very beginning of the video, is a prescriptive one. Meaning, he ascribes to himself a bigger responsibility compared to someone who merely shares thoughts, ideas, etc. Now, one has to live up to one's attitude, when one does that. It is a completely different position from the one you had in your mythology essays. Do you see that?

Also, he does, quite literally, speak in the name of Artemis, when he speaks in first person, as if he was Artemis. He doesn't describe something about Artemis, but he takes the floor as Artemis instead. Do you see how radically different, both in secular terms, and way more in esoteric terms, this is, compared to any third person account he could have provided instead?

He does that, while he, at the same time, has not the least idea of Artemis! I mean this literally: not-the-least-idea. He wants to give the impression he is sharing an imaginative approach to the myth by using the first person, by asking us to think with robust imagination, but he himself is holding in himself a hollow name, behind which there is, in his heart, precisely zero image, zero context, zero ideational activity. Do you recognize that, or do you want to keep on calling this "trivial"?

This is why I said, which I maintain, that he preaches one thing, while doing himself the opposite at the same time. I will therefore have this in mind when contemplating Linnell's work. And I am ready to face the "great tragedy" this reckless thought of mine could attract into my destiny.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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AshvinP
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Re: Massimo Scaligero

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 2:29 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:55 pm
Federica wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 1:34 pm


Ashvin,

Your post addresses exclusively, and rightly, what my post tells about obstacles on my personal path, and attitudes I'd better assume. What you say is appropriate, which is why, as I mentioned, I mostly resist the urge to call out mistakes.

Now, without any intention to minimize or divert attention from what you are saying, that is correct and that I am to some extent aware of, can we also, in parallel, have a look at what this particular mistake inevitably tells about Lindell's approach? All mistakes are not equal, this is a truth. It's not the mistake in itself I am pointing to, just for the sake of it. It's that this particular mistake reveals a lack of respect towards other beings, and an approach that is incompatible with imaginative cognition, in my opinion (yes it's an opinion, I could have written "as I see it", but because it's the same meaning, I can just as well refer to my opinion).

This is a sign that calls for some attention when considering other content from this author. Because he preaches one thing and does another. To me, this is an alarm bell. This has little or nothing to do with mistakes due to simple ignorance, rush, or even mistaken interpretation of spiritual facts. I don't see that, in your mythology essays - correct me if I'm wrong - you put yourself in the name and place of the gods, as their representative, speaking on their behalf as way to preach imaginative cognition, while doing yourself the opposite at the same time. For this reason your comparison is unfitting.

Would you please also spend a word on that?

Federica,

My word on that would be that I completely disagree. I don't think it's a reasonable opinion under a completely secular approach, let alone a spiritual scientific one. With the latter, we know that isolated appearances fixed in time cannot form the basis of conclusive judgments, especially in the realm of ideational beings and their activity. I don't think Linnell was putting himself in the place of the Gods as their representative or "preaching imaginative cognition". He was simply trying to elucidate how Greek mythology prefigures the rise of modern intellectual thinking and the technology born from that thinking. That he put in the effort to do it somewhat artistically and with the voices is already more effort than I would have been willing to put into it. There is no basis for accusing some fundamental disrespect towards other beings or hypocrisy here - it was a trivial mistake of making Artemis into a god instead of a goddess, plain and simple. If you could point to something that indicated he completely misconstrued or misapplied the spiritual significance of Greek mythology, then that would be another story, but as it is there is no alarm bell to speak of, and it would be a great tragedy for us if we let that color our willingness and ability to contemplate his other work.


Ashvin,

Firstly, please don't distort what I write. I never spoke of "conclusive judgments", but of "some attention". So when you do as if I had, you show objective bias. And what about the "great tragedy" you prefigure for people, like me, who would deprive themselves of contemplating Linnell's work? In the same way you are mindful not to lack charitable understanding towards Linnell, you should probably be mindful not to overload the board with a disproportionate monitum such as this one. Please, Ashvin, recover some measure in your words.

Secondly, you say that you don't think Linnell is "preaching imaginative cognition". Nonetheless, Linnell says very clearly: "I would like to invite you to think like an ancient Greek, that is, with a robust imagination, and to bring pictures to life". I would say, mine is a legitimate and very accurate characterisation of the latter. Do you still disagree that he preaches imaginative cognition?

So his message, from the very beginning of the video, is a prescriptive one. Meaning, he ascribes to himself a bigger responsibility compared to someone who merely shares thoughts, ideas, etc. Now, one has to live up to one's attitude, when one does that. It is a completely different position from the one you had in your mythology essays. Do you see that?

Also, he does, quite literally, speak in the name of Artemis, when he speaks in first person, as if he was Artemis. He doesn't describe something about Artemis, but he takes the floor as Artemis instead. Do you see how radically different, both in secular terms, and way more in esoteric terms, this is, compared to any third person account he could have provided instead?

He does that, while he, at the same time, has not the least idea of Artemis! I mean this literally: not-the-least-idea. He wants to give the impression he is sharing an imaginative approach to the myth by using the first person, by asking us to think with robust imagination, but he himself is holding in himself a hollow name, behind which there is, in his heart, precisely zero image, zero context, zero ideational activity. Do you recognize that, or do you want to keep on calling this "trivial"?

This is why I said, which I maintain, that he preaches one thing, while doing himself the opposite at the same time. I will therefore have this in mind when contemplating Linnell's work. And I am ready to face the "great tragedy" this reckless thought of mine could attract into my destiny.

Yes, it's trivial Federica, and frankly, I can't even understand how you were able to convince yourself this is such a big deal. None of what you write above sounds like sound logical reasoning to me. I don't know why you call it "preaching" or why you say he "ascribes to himself a bigger responsibility" than any one of us when writing posts on this forum for others to read.

I can only understand it in terms of a consistent tendency to write off new thinkers and their work by obsessively honing in on such trivial mistakes or things that annoy you personally. That alleviates you of the responsibility to be patient and work through a broader range of their work before forming conclusive judgments. Yes, the judgment of "disrespect towards other beings" or hypocrisy is conclusive when it leads you to feel that it "calls for some attention when considering other content from this author". In other words, the judgment based on one simple mistake is already coloring your contemplation of all his content, past, present, and future. You have done this with Tomberg, MS, and now Linnell. Yet you always seem to revise your earlier judgments after more serious consideration, to the point where you now started a thread on MS and are transcribing his audio lectures. That should be a sign that perhaps your initial judgments are not deserving of so much of your trust and credence. You are not really trying to figure out the reasons "why [you] constantly notice small mistakes and have an urge to correct them" or trying to "Mostly resist that urge" if you keep indulging the habit and justifying it to yourself.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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