AshvinP wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:28 pm
All of this helps with transforming our saccadic movements into 'smooth pursuit' in normal life and in meditative states.
When I read this on the other thread it occurred to me that it has some connection with the topic here. Maybe it can serve as an illustration for liminal spaces. For example, when we read, most of the time our attention skips over the words, seeking to grasp some familiar linguistic structures. Often we read in such a way that we don't try to understand the thoughts of the one who has written them but we only check whether they fit our established understanding.
If we try to read even few sentences with smooth pursuit, trying to feel how we eloquently pronounce them and how we can even use our imaginary hands and whole body language to gesticulate the meaning (as we often do for real when we explain something enthusiastically), then we easily see how dense our inner activity becomes. It is as if in one sentence we can experience a theatrical scene, as if we are on stage and perform. Then, when we compare that with the usual way we read, we see how aliased our experience normally is. Comparing the two experiences back to back gives some illustration of how much we miss at every moment in between our hasty thoughts.
BTW this attention to the liminal spaces is already contained in the fifth exercise.
That's a great example, Cleric, thanks! I think it would fit well at the beginning near the Hesse quote.
Can you suggest any sentences that may help illustrate the principle most effectively?
I was thinking something like, "The man stood up, reached into the sky, and began swinging his arms in rhythmic waves to get the woman's attention, but she hardly noticed." But perhaps that is too directly inviting the gesticulation of meaning and something more subtle would work better.
Actually, I am thinking maybe a sentence that includes a multiplication and/or addition of a few numbers could work well to illustrate the principle. This naturally invites us to be present in our thinking effort, as you discussed with Guney on the other thread, and at the same time, it is usually experienced as really dry and prosaic. Then it could be suggested that we make the calculation into a theatrical performance - each number is a character of a different sort, the multiplication and addition signs indicate running and walking. We meet these characters at the edge of a forest and they lead us into the thicket in the general direction and vicinity of where the lost treasure (answer) is to be found.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
When I read this on the other thread it occurred to me that it has some connection with the topic here. Maybe it can serve as an illustration for liminal spaces. For example, when we read, most of the time our attention skips over the words, seeking to grasp some familiar linguistic structures. Often we read in such a way that we don't try to understand the thoughts of the one who has written them but we only check whether they fit our established understanding.
If we try to read even few sentences with smooth pursuit, trying to feel how we eloquently pronounce them and how we can even use our imaginary hands and whole body language to gesticulate the meaning (as we often do for real when we explain something enthusiastically), then we easily see how dense our inner activity becomes. It is as if in one sentence we can experience a theatrical scene, as if we are on stage and perform. Then, when we compare that with the usual way we read, we see how aliased our experience normally is. Comparing the two experiences back to back gives some illustration of how much we miss at every moment in between our hasty thoughts.
BTW this attention to the liminal spaces is already contained in the fifth exercise.
That's a great example, Cleric, thanks! I think it would fit well at the beginning near the Hesse quote.
Can you suggest any sentences that may help illustrate the principle most effectively?
I was thinking something like, "The man stood up, reached into the sky, and began swinging his arms in rhythmic waves to get the woman's attention, but she hardly noticed." But perhaps that is too directly inviting the gesticulation of meaning and something more subtle would work better.
Actually, I am thinking maybe a sentence that includes a multiplication and/or addition of a few numbers could work well to illustrate the principle. This naturally invites us to be present in our thinking effort, as you discussed with Guney on the other thread, and at the same time, it is usually experienced as really dry and prosaic. Then it could be suggested that we make the calculation into a theatrical performance - each number is a character of a different sort, the multiplication and addition signs indicate running and walking. We meet these characters at the edge of a forest and they lead us into the thicket in the general direction and vicinity of where the lost treasure (answer) is to be found.
nice idea, Ashvin - a mathematical drama.
IMHO though, the point would be defeated by proposing a particular sentence as an illustrative example. One should be open to do it with any sentence illustrating an idea someone else has expressed. Highlighting an example would suggest that it's because of the content of the sentence that we are able to "gesticulate its meaning". While the thickening of spiritual activity would result from merging with the other person's perspective, regardless of the content. One can do it with the creative thought you have expressed here - that a mathematical drama could be a good example of the principle - and with this reply I am writing, and so on.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
That's a great example, Cleric, thanks! I think it would fit well at the beginning near the Hesse quote.
Can you suggest any sentences that may help illustrate the principle most effectively?
I was thinking something like, "The man stood up, reached into the sky, and began swinging his arms in rhythmic waves to get the woman's attention, but she hardly noticed." But perhaps that is too directly inviting the gesticulation of meaning and something more subtle would work better.
Actually, I am thinking maybe a sentence that includes a multiplication and/or addition of a few numbers could work well to illustrate the principle. This naturally invites us to be present in our thinking effort, as you discussed with Guney on the other thread, and at the same time, it is usually experienced as really dry and prosaic. Then it could be suggested that we make the calculation into a theatrical performance - each number is a character of a different sort, the multiplication and addition signs indicate running and walking. We meet these characters at the edge of a forest and they lead us into the thicket in the general direction and vicinity of where the lost treasure (answer) is to be found.
nice idea, Ashvin - a mathematical drama.
IMHO though, the point would be defeated by proposing a particular sentence as an illustrative example. One should be open to do it with any sentence illustrating an idea someone else has expressed. Highlighting an example would suggest that it's because of the content of the sentence that we are able to "gesticulate its meaning". While the thickening of spiritual activity would result from merging with the other person's perspective, regardless of the content. One can do it with the creative thought you have expressed here - that a mathematical drama could be a good example of the principle - and with this reply I am writing, and so on.
I see what you are saying, Federica, and it makes sense. So perhaps the best route is to simply describe the principle and then, at the end, ask the reader to go back over the same passage that described the principle, but now put the principle into practice while reading.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Actually, I am thinking maybe a sentence that includes a multiplication and/or addition of a few numbers could work well to illustrate the principle. This naturally invites us to be present in our thinking effort, as you discussed with Guney on the other thread, and at the same time, it is usually experienced as really dry and prosaic. Then it could be suggested that we make the calculation into a theatrical performance - each number is a character of a different sort, the multiplication and addition signs indicate running and walking. We meet these characters at the edge of a forest and they lead us into the thicket in the general direction and vicinity of where the lost treasure (answer) is to be found.
nice idea, Ashvin - a mathematical drama.
IMHO though, the point would be defeated by proposing a particular sentence as an illustrative example. One should be open to do it with any sentence illustrating an idea someone else has expressed. Highlighting an example would suggest that it's because of the content of the sentence that we are able to "gesticulate its meaning". While the thickening of spiritual activity would result from merging with the other person's perspective, regardless of the content. One can do it with the creative thought you have expressed here - that a mathematical drama could be a good example of the principle - and with this reply I am writing, and so on.
I see what you are saying, Federica, and it makes sense. So perhaps the best route is to simply describe the principle and then, at the end, ask the reader to go back over the same passage that described the principle, but now put the principle into practice while reading.
maybe so, or maybe showing how the same sentence can be "gesticulated" differently, depending on elements other than its content... such as relative time, particular language, karmic connections,... unless this would make the whole principle too much of a "principle" in the intellectual sense... I'm not sure.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
AshvinP wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:41 pm
That's a great example, Cleric, thanks! I think it would fit well at the beginning near the Hesse quote.
Can you suggest any sentences that may help illustrate the principle most effectively?
I was thinking something like, "The man stood up, reached into the sky, and began swinging his arms in rhythmic waves to get the woman's attention, but she hardly noticed." But perhaps that is too directly inviting the gesticulation of meaning and something more subtle would work better.
To be fair, I haven't thought about concrete examples. I didn't even mention this as a suggestion for the essay, it just occurred to me, when you mentioned the smooth pursuit and saccades, that it can be seen in the context of liminal spaces. I'll see if anything useful comes to mind.
nice idea, Ashvin - a mathematical drama.