Jung and Steiner are friends

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Federica
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:17 pm The main question for me is not what Jung thought he was doing or what he could discern through his work, but what we can discern through it when we approach it with living thinking and an intuitive orientation towards the higher structured potential of the Spirit. Camargo correctly points out that these personalities are all instruments for much higher-order intentions (as we all are, but some are given greater karmic streams to influence). In Steiner's case that became much more conscious participation, while for Jung it remained semi-conscious at best. Nevertheless, the streams of intuition, inspiration, and imagination that flowed through Jung into his work act as reservoirs of untapped potential for wisdom and insight that surely no one has exhausted yet. It is similar to how Einstein's equations embedded predictions that he had no idea about and are still bearing fruit for researchers today. And this is how cultural history has always progressed. A few noteworthy individuals receive the lion's share of wisdom, generate a copious amount of traditions, practices, writings, etc., and then these flow into the broader culture for others to work with and realize in their own way. As Whitehead once said, 'all of Western philosophy has been footnotes to Plato'. This is practically the TC spectrum.

Yet truly new insights and capacities are reached from exploring the same reservoirs of Wisdom from different angles, in different circumstances. And now we are gradually growing into times when more of the 'masses' can receive direct streams of higher intuition, not necessarily relying on mediation by the whole hierarchy of culture. That is what Steiner and Anthroposophy really initiated and gifted us with. Yet it is still critical to kindle that intuition by working our spiritual activity through the various reservoirs of culture and nature. There are certain key personalities of the 20th century that received great deposits of imaginative insight once the higher worlds 'opened' towards the end of the 19th century and I would certainly count Jung among them. We can certainly gain insight into the soul world that modulates our normal thinking experience through his work.

Yes, I certainly agree with all you have written here, as it should appear from what I wrote to Güney a couple of posts above.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Güney27
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by Güney27 »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:17 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:40 pm
AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:00 pm Thanks for sharing the talk, Guney.

He makes a great point about Jung exploring the astral (soul) world while Steiner also explores that world but goes beyond to the spirit worlds, i.e. the higher-order moral intentions structuring our destiny.

I disagree it is a “great point” to the extent that it implicitly suggests that their respective explorations of the soul world are of similar nature, which I don’t think it’s the case. Along similar lines, the completely subjective statement that RS and CGJ “unlock each other” is made into a generality: “none can get Steiner without getting Jung first”, which is evidently incorrect. “They specialized in different realms….” They didn’t, they were both very much ‘generalists’....
It's the perspective from which they explored the supersensible worlds that was different. I believe the difference lies in the understanding of thinking as superordinate principle. As you once said:
AshvinP wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:40 pm Cleric's last post was a metaphorical illustration of exactly where Kant and Schop went wrong in their analytical philosophy. But I'm sure that wasn’t apparent and it's understandable why. These things are very unfamiliar to past philosophical or spiritual traditions, even including 'Gnostic' thinkers like Jung,
Regardless of how enjoyable reading Jung may be (I agree it often is) this foundational difference makes their respective explorations of the soul world two essentially different endeavors, I believe, and this appears to be not grasped, or glossed over, by Camargo.

The main question for me is not what Jung thought he was doing or what he could discern through his work, but what we can discern through it when we approach it with living thinking and an intuitive orientation towards the higher structured potential of the Spirit. Camargo correctly points out that these personalities are all instruments for much higher-order intentions (as we all are, but some are given greater karmic streams to influence). In Steiner's case that became much more conscious participation, while for Jung it remained semi-conscious at best. Nevertheless, the streams of intuition, inspiration, and imagination that flowed through Jung into his work act as reservoirs of untapped potential for wisdom and insight that surely no one has exhausted yet. It is similar to how Einstein's equations embedded predictions that he had no idea about and are still bearing fruit for researchers today. And this is how cultural history has always progressed. A few noteworthy individuals receive the lion's share of wisdom, generate a copious amount of traditions, practices, writings, etc., and then these flow into the broader culture for others to work with and realize in their own way. As Whitehead once said, 'all of Western philosophy has been footnotes to Plato'. This is practically the TC spectrum.

Yet truly new insights and capacities are reached from exploring the same reservoirs of Wisdom from different angles, in different circumstances. And now we are gradually growing into times when more of the 'masses' can receive direct streams of higher intuition, not necessarily relying on mediation by the whole hierarchy of culture. That is what Steiner and Anthroposophy really initiated and gifted us with. Yet it is still critical to kindle that intuition by working our spiritual activity through the various reservoirs of culture and nature. There are certain key personalities of the 20th century that received great deposits of imaginative insight once the higher worlds 'opened' towards the end of the 19th century and I would certainly count Jung among them. We can certainly gain insight into the soul world that modulates our normal thinking experience through his work.
Ashvin,

Do you think that it would be beneficial, if one is doing shadow work (soul work) in an jungian style (active imagination, dream analysis) together with the concentration exercise (I think that speech, Rosecross meditation) that Steiner and Cleric provide?
Or would be counterproductive do mix these up?

I'm really interested in going into conversation with my unconscious.
I think it would help me in a couple ways.

How could jung enter in to the astral world, without the training of his thinking (concentration exercises, meditation)?

I have the feeling that Jungs encounters in the astral world, are some kind of elemental beings, that he himself created. Maybe it is like the stage after death, when one's innerlife confronts oneself in the form of external things.
Is it possible for jung and with his method, to got in touch with beings of the hirachies, in form of imaginations?
~Only true love can heal broken hearts~
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AshvinP
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:47 pm
AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:17 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:40 pm


I disagree it is a “great point” to the extent that it implicitly suggests that their respective explorations of the soul world are of similar nature, which I don’t think it’s the case. Along similar lines, the completely subjective statement that RS and CGJ “unlock each other” is made into a generality: “none can get Steiner without getting Jung first”, which is evidently incorrect. “They specialized in different realms….” They didn’t, they were both very much ‘generalists’....
It's the perspective from which they explored the supersensible worlds that was different. I believe the difference lies in the understanding of thinking as superordinate principle. As you once said:



Regardless of how enjoyable reading Jung may be (I agree it often is) this foundational difference makes their respective explorations of the soul world two essentially different endeavors, I believe, and this appears to be not grasped, or glossed over, by Camargo.

The main question for me is not what Jung thought he was doing or what he could discern through his work, but what we can discern through it when we approach it with living thinking and an intuitive orientation towards the higher structured potential of the Spirit. Camargo correctly points out that these personalities are all instruments for much higher-order intentions (as we all are, but some are given greater karmic streams to influence). In Steiner's case that became much more conscious participation, while for Jung it remained semi-conscious at best. Nevertheless, the streams of intuition, inspiration, and imagination that flowed through Jung into his work act as reservoirs of untapped potential for wisdom and insight that surely no one has exhausted yet. It is similar to how Einstein's equations embedded predictions that he had no idea about and are still bearing fruit for researchers today. And this is how cultural history has always progressed. A few noteworthy individuals receive the lion's share of wisdom, generate a copious amount of traditions, practices, writings, etc., and then these flow into the broader culture for others to work with and realize in their own way. As Whitehead once said, 'all of Western philosophy has been footnotes to Plato'. This is practically the TC spectrum.

Yet truly new insights and capacities are reached from exploring the same reservoirs of Wisdom from different angles, in different circumstances. And now we are gradually growing into times when more of the 'masses' can receive direct streams of higher intuition, not necessarily relying on mediation by the whole hierarchy of culture. That is what Steiner and Anthroposophy really initiated and gifted us with. Yet it is still critical to kindle that intuition by working our spiritual activity through the various reservoirs of culture and nature. There are certain key personalities of the 20th century that received great deposits of imaginative insight once the higher worlds 'opened' towards the end of the 19th century and I would certainly count Jung among them. We can certainly gain insight into the soul world that modulates our normal thinking experience through his work.
Ashvin,

Do you think that it would be beneficial, if one is doing shadow work (soul work) in an jungian style (active imagination, dream analysis) together with the concentration exercise (I think that speech, Rosecross meditation) that Steiner and Cleric provide?
Or would be counterproductive do mix these up?

I'm really interested in going into conversation with my unconscious.
I think it would help me in a couple ways.

How could jung enter in to the astral world, without the training of his thinking (concentration exercises, meditation)?

I have the feeling that Jungs encounters in the astral world, are some kind of elemental beings, that he himself created. Maybe it is like the stage after death, when one's innerlife confronts oneself in the form of external things.
Is it possible for jung and with his method, to got in touch with beings of the hirachies, in form of imaginations?

Honestly, Guney, I would say these desires are signs to slow down and root yourself back in the foundations. It is something we all experience on the inner path as we become more enthusiastic, which is generally a healthy feeling but can also go to extremes. As Cleric illustrated on the other thread, 

So simply continue to probe the mental states while keeping the prayerful attitude and you’ll certainly reach a point like the animation above, where you’ll experience the plane of your mental states as living in a deeper soul space.

It is one thing to move our thinking through the reservoirs of Jung's ideas so as to gather thinking experience that we can later encompass with our more holistic intuition. In that sense, we don't want to shy away from visiting as many ideal places as we can (of course balancing that with other obligations) to enrich the conceptual palette of our spiritual activity. But it is another thing to delve into the unconscious with exercises we hardly understand. I can't really comment on 'active imagination' for that reason - I don't really know what it's about, but it doesn't seem to go through the portal of thinking concentration and that's something to be wary of, as Federica also suggested. 

As for dream analysis, there is certainly no harm in keeping a dream diary and trying to notice objective themes/patterns that emerge and reflect back to us our soul tendencies. 

https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA234/En ... 08p01.html
Steiner wrote:If you compare the dream-picture with the actual experience, studying them in this intimate way, you will find that the content of the pictures is not really of great importance; it is the dramatic sequence that is significant: whether a feeling of expectation was present, whether this is relieved, or leads to a crisis. One might say that the whole complex of feelings is translated into the dream-life.

Now, if we start from here and examine dreams of this (first) type [reflecting outer experiences], we find that the pictures derive their whole character chiefly from the nature of the man himself, from the individuality of his ego. (Only, we must not study dreams like the psychiatrists who bring everything under one hat.) If we have an understanding of dreams — I say, of dreams, not of dream-interpretation — we can often learn to know a man better from his dreams than from observing his external life. When we study all that a person experiences in such dreams we find that it always points back to the experience of the ego in the outer world.

That is a very useful way to get some feedback on our astral space and find creative ways of engaging in soul work. As Steiner indicates above, it is not about imposing intellectual interpretations on all the details of our dreams, but gaining an overall intuitive sense of the feeling patterns - the 'dramatic sequence' - that structure and steer our thinking-states during waking life. All of this requires patience and time before the dreams begin to speak their deeper secrets to us. We should really feel like we are practicing to develop a new skill and continually refine that skill, except this skill is more intimate and essential than any other skill we could learn in normal life.

Besides that, it is most helpful to persist with the focused thinking concentration exercises and again treat it as a skill that we need to hone like we are perfecting our ability to play a musical instrument. That is also what I am doing, for ex working with the leminscate smooth attention exercise that Cleric shared. I am also working on 'slowing down' and 'smoothing out' my intellectual activity by reading through text more deliberately, as Cleric had suggested previously. All of this helps with transforming our saccadic movements into 'smooth pursuit' in normal life and in meditative states. These are the most important things to gradually perfect so that our thinking can invert through the portal of concentration and become a sensitive 'feeler' for our soul-structure. In this way, we aim to align our thinking stream with the intentional "I"-perspectives that art the soul landscape, and that is something missing from the Jungian (and practically all other) approaches. I would remind here of Cleric's outline of how imaginative cognition (astral) differs from inspired and intuitive (higher spirit regions).
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by Güney27 »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:28 pm
Güney27 wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:47 pm
AshvinP wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:17 pm


The main question for me is not what Jung thought he was doing or what he could discern through his work, but what we can discern through it when we approach it with living thinking and an intuitive orientation towards the higher structured potential of the Spirit. Camargo correctly points out that these personalities are all instruments for much higher-order intentions (as we all are, but some are given greater karmic streams to influence). In Steiner's case that became much more conscious participation, while for Jung it remained semi-conscious at best. Nevertheless, the streams of intuition, inspiration, and imagination that flowed through Jung into his work act as reservoirs of untapped potential for wisdom and insight that surely no one has exhausted yet. It is similar to how Einstein's equations embedded predictions that he had no idea about and are still bearing fruit for researchers today. And this is how cultural history has always progressed. A few noteworthy individuals receive the lion's share of wisdom, generate a copious amount of traditions, practices, writings, etc., and then these flow into the broader culture for others to work with and realize in their own way. As Whitehead once said, 'all of Western philosophy has been footnotes to Plato'. This is practically the TC spectrum.

Yet truly new insights and capacities are reached from exploring the same reservoirs of Wisdom from different angles, in different circumstances. And now we are gradually growing into times when more of the 'masses' can receive direct streams of higher intuition, not necessarily relying on mediation by the whole hierarchy of culture. That is what Steiner and Anthroposophy really initiated and gifted us with. Yet it is still critical to kindle that intuition by working our spiritual activity through the various reservoirs of culture and nature. There are certain key personalities of the 20th century that received great deposits of imaginative insight once the higher worlds 'opened' towards the end of the 19th century and I would certainly count Jung among them. We can certainly gain insight into the soul world that modulates our normal thinking experience through his work.
Ashvin,

Do you think that it would be beneficial, if one is doing shadow work (soul work) in an jungian style (active imagination, dream analysis) together with the concentration exercise (I think that speech, Rosecross meditation) that Steiner and Cleric provide?
Or would be counterproductive do mix these up?

I'm really interested in going into conversation with my unconscious.
I think it would help me in a couple ways.

How could jung enter in to the astral world, without the training of his thinking (concentration exercises, meditation)?

I have the feeling that Jungs encounters in the astral world, are some kind of elemental beings, that he himself created. Maybe it is like the stage after death, when one's innerlife confronts oneself in the form of external things.
Is it possible for jung and with his method, to got in touch with beings of the hirachies, in form of imaginations?

Honestly, Guney, I would say these desires are signs to slow down and root yourself back in the foundations. It is something we all experience on the inner path as we become more enthusiastic, which is generally a healthy feeling but can also go to extremes. As Cleric illustrated on the other thread, 

So simply continue to probe the mental states while keeping the prayerful attitude and you’ll certainly reach a point like the animation above, where you’ll experience the plane of your mental states as living in a deeper soul space.

It is one thing to move our thinking through the reservoirs of Jung's ideas so as to gather thinking experience that we can later encompass with our more holistic intuition. In that sense, we don't want to shy away from visiting as many ideal places as we can (of course balancing that with other obligations) to enrich the conceptual palette of our spiritual activity. But it is another thing to delve into the unconscious with exercises we hardly understand. I can't really comment on 'active imagination' for that reason - I don't really know what it's about, but it doesn't seem to go through the portal of thinking concentration and that's something to be wary of, as Federica also suggested. 

As for dream analysis, there is certainly no harm in keeping a dream diary and trying to notice objective themes/patterns that emerge and reflect back to us our soul tendencies. 

https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA234/En ... 08p01.html
Steiner wrote:If you compare the dream-picture with the actual experience, studying them in this intimate way, you will find that the content of the pictures is not really of great importance; it is the dramatic sequence that is significant: whether a feeling of expectation was present, whether this is relieved, or leads to a crisis. One might say that the whole complex of feelings is translated into the dream-life.

Now, if we start from here and examine dreams of this (first) type [reflecting outer experiences], we find that the pictures derive their whole character chiefly from the nature of the man himself, from the individuality of his ego. (Only, we must not study dreams like the psychiatrists who bring everything under one hat.) If we have an understanding of dreams — I say, of dreams, not of dream-interpretation — we can often learn to know a man better from his dreams than from observing his external life. When we study all that a person experiences in such dreams we find that it always points back to the experience of the ego in the outer world.

That is a very useful way to get some feedback on our astral space and find creative ways of engaging in soul work. As Steiner indicates above, it is not about imposing intellectual interpretations on all the details of our dreams, but gaining an overall intuitive sense of the feeling patterns - the 'dramatic sequence' - that structure and steer our thinking-states during waking life. All of this requires patience and time before the dreams begin to speak their deeper secrets to us. We should really feel like we are practicing to develop a new skill and continually refine that skill, except this skill is more intimate and essential than any other skill we could learn in normal life.

Besides that, it is most helpful to persist with the focused thinking concentration exercises and again treat it as a skill that we need to hone like we are perfecting our ability to play a musical instrument. That is also what I am doing, for ex working with the leminscate smooth attention exercise that Cleric shared. I am also working on 'slowing down' and 'smoothing out' my intellectual activity by reading through text more deliberately, as Cleric had suggested previously. All of this helps with transforming our saccadic movements into 'smooth pursuit' in normal life and in meditative states. These are the most important things to gradually perfect so that our thinking can invert through the portal of concentration and become a sensitive 'feeler' for our soul-structure. In this way, we aim to align our thinking stream with the intentional "I"-perspectives that art the soul landscape, and that is something missing from the Jungian (and practically all other) approaches. I would remind here of Cleric's outline of how imaginative cognition (astral) differs from inspired and intuitive (higher spirit regions).
Ashvin,

as we talked about active imagination,
I found this video about the meditation technique.




Is it quite different than differentiating deeper soul currents trough concentration. Did you ever came across a text from jung where he talks about how he came to the idea of this meditation?
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:58 am Ashvin,

as we talked about active imagination,
I found this video about the meditation technique.

Is it quite different than differentiating deeper soul currents trough concentration. Did you ever came across a text from jung where he talks about how he came to the idea of this meditation?

Guney,

No, I am not really familiar with the method of active imagination. The fact that there seems to be little in the way of core texts from Jung elucidating the method, and rather only fragments and letters here and there, makes me feel it wasn't very well developed. I think you are correct that it differs substantially from concentration exercises for Imaginative cognition such as those provided by Steiner.

At the end of the day, it's all about PoF, the exceptional state, and expanding from there. This isn't only concentration, but also working on strengthening our will and purifying our lower soul inclinations at the same time, which includes through the phenomenological (living) exploration of spiritual scientific ideas. With active imagination, it sounds to me like the goal is to simply remain within the personal soul life and perhaps gain insights about childhood traumas or other similar experiences which are conditioning our current state. That can be important and useful, but it won't lead us into the World-creative streams of intentional activity that structure the layers of human and Earthly destiny. In other words, it won't help us expand the mode of cognition by which we understand the images of the soul-life or the deeper processes structuring biological and physical life, which elucidate our true tasks for World evolution.

All problems arise when the intellect continues to assert its authority and trespass into domains where it is no longer adaptive, like it is for most normal sensory life. Higher cognition is the only sure way to come into contact with higher worlds without relying on the intellect to arbitrarily decipher spiritual communications according to its desires, preferences, wishes, and so forth. For ex., the whole conundrum of whether we are dealing with "real v. hallucinated" images arises when the intellect extends itself from its rightful domain in the sensory spectrum into the higher spiritual spectrum. It would be like if an animal consciousness suddenly started hearing its thoughts in the intellectual voice, but had no basis to understand the finely textured meaning. It would have to reduce the sounds to the lowest common denominator of instinctual pulls toward pleasure and pushes away from pain.

Then we could speak of hallucination - a flow of experiences without any proper cognitive basis to integrate them into a musical whole that elucidates the course of individual and collective life in very practical ways. It is similar for the intellect that extends into the imaginative domain. The meanings it attaches to the imaginative experience are still conditioned to normal sensory life, which in turn is still highly conditioned to animalistic seeking of pleasure and avoiding pain. In so far as we get angry, we hate, we lust, we seek pleasure, and so forth, we are practically the same as animals. The only difference is that we can later observe ourselves and passively comment on our behavior with the intellectual voice. We can develop philosophies that rationalize and justify this behavior. This does not make us free individuals but part of a homogenous group that is steered by templated instincts, impulses, emotions, and beliefs. What makes us free individuals is when we rise above these templated experiences in our sense-free ideas and ideals, which are truly the first-person perspectives of archetypal beings, and thereby participate in creatively and morally shaping the streamlines of destiny.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by Güney27 »

AshvinP wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 7:59 pm
Güney27 wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:58 am Ashvin,

as we talked about active imagination,
I found this video about the meditation technique.

Is it quite different than differentiating deeper soul currents trough concentration. Did you ever came across a text from jung where he talks about how he came to the idea of this meditation?

Guney,

No, I am not really familiar with the method of active imagination. The fact that there seems to be little in the way of core texts from Jung elucidating the method, and rather only fragments and letters here and there, makes me feel it wasn't very well developed. I think you are correct that it differs substantially from concentration exercises for Imaginative cognition such as those provided by Steiner.

At the end of the day, it's all about PoF, the exceptional state, and expanding from there. This isn't only concentration, but also working on strengthening our will and purifying our lower soul inclinations at the same time, which includes through the phenomenological (living) exploration of spiritual scientific ideas. With active imagination, it sounds to me like the goal is to simply remain within the personal soul life and perhaps gain insights about childhood traumas or other similar experiences which are conditioning our current state. That can be important and useful, but it won't lead us into the World-creative streams of intentional activity that structure the layers of human and Earthly destiny. In other words, it won't help us expand the mode of cognition by which we understand the images of the soul-life or the deeper processes structuring biological and physical life, which elucidate our true tasks for World evolution.

All problems arise when the intellect continues to assert its authority and trespass into domains where it is no longer adaptive, like it is for most normal sensory life. Higher cognition is the only sure way to come into contact with higher worlds without relying on the intellect to arbitrarily decipher spiritual communications according to its desires, preferences, wishes, and so forth. For ex., the whole conundrum of whether we are dealing with "real v. hallucinated" images arises when the intellect extends itself from its rightful domain in the sensory spectrum into the higher spiritual spectrum. It would be like if an animal consciousness suddenly started hearing its thoughts in the intellectual voice, but had no basis to understand the finely textured meaning. It would have to reduce the sounds to the lowest common denominator of instinctual pulls toward pleasure and pushes away from pain.

Then we could speak of hallucination - a flow of experiences without any proper cognitive basis to integrate them into a musical whole that elucidates the course of individual and collective life in very practical ways. It is similar for the intellect that extends into the imaginative domain. The meanings it attaches to the imaginative experience are still conditioned to normal sensory life, which in turn is still highly conditioned to animalistic seeking of pleasure and avoiding pain. In so far as we get angry, we hate, we lust, we seek pleasure, and so forth, we are practically the same as animals. The only difference is that we can later observe ourselves and passively comment on our behavior with the intellectual voice. We can develop philosophies that rationalize and justify this behavior. This does not make us free individuals but part of a homogenous group that is steered by templated instincts, impulses, emotions, and beliefs. What makes us free individuals is when we rise above these templated experiences in our sense-free ideas and ideals, which are truly the first-person perspectives of archetypal beings, and thereby participate in creatively and morally shaping the streamlines of destiny.
Ashvin,

It's always the last part which I can't understand ( :
Can you explain it for dummies?
What makes us free individuals is when we rise above these templated experiences in our sense-free ideas and ideals, which are truly the first-person perspectives of archetypal beings, and thereby participate in creatively and morally shaping the streamlines of destiny.
What is the most crucial part of humanities development in our time.

To get more control over the inner life?
To become more controlling about our lower nature?
Or maybe to understand thinking more deeply?
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 1:05 am Ashvin,

It's always the last part which I can't understand ( :
Can you explain it for dummies?
What makes us free individuals is when we rise above these templated experiences in our sense-free ideas and ideals, which are truly the first-person perspectives of archetypal beings, and thereby participate in creatively and morally shaping the streamlines of destiny.

Guney,

It's true, that last part was commented especially in a very broad and abstract way. Let's try to flesh it out some more. 

Remember, all the concepts-ideas presented in these posts are symbolic points of balance that should direct our attention right back at the intuitive thinking activity that is perceiving and contemplating the words. In other words, everything should relate back to the living flow of experience that transforms our current state of being toward more integrated, holistic states that we are aiming for. Think of it like you are in a sailboat on the ocean heading toward some important ports in the distance, amidst surging storm waves of Spiritual Activity that structure the whole of perceptual experience (inner and outer). If you simply flow directly along with the Spirit (wind), the boat runs the risk of getting overwhelmed and flipping over. The conceptual points of balance are like little coves into which our activity can flow, where we can rest our thoughts for a bit and gather our bearings, rig the sails back up, before heading back out to navigate the choppy waters. All of our posts here are not to explain or model the ideal waters, i.e. provide a conceptual model that explains "participating in creatively and morally shaping the streamlines of destiny", but simply gain a more advantageous orientation toward how that idea will be explained from out of ourselves when we return to sea and experience ourselves engaged in the creative shaping process itself.

To extend this sailboat metaphor further, our local spiritual activity is like when we adjust the sail to resist the Wind (higher order Spirit that has precipitated into thought, soul, and sensory forms) so it effectively propels us toward our ideal aims. This is especially the case in the state of concentration, where our spiritual activity becomes very firmly planted and also receptive to the surrounding influences that impress their activity, beginning with local soul influences, so we gain flashes of intuition as to how the latter are always steering our spiritual activity in certain directions. Because it is firmly planet, the activity isn't simply carried away by those influences like a leaf on a stream, like it normally is during sensory life, but can remain firm and gather imaginative impressions of the forces that structure its flow. But this is also the case outside of the concentrated state, when we use our phenomenological thinking activity to probe supersensible realities, or when we resist certain soul inclinations that would otherwise compel our activity during the normal course of the day. For ex., Steiner speaks of how we can practice resisting the speaking forth of habitual thoughts, inwardly or outwardly, that pop into our consciousness. All of these things help us gain intuition about the forces that structure our usual flow of thinking experience and more effectively navigate the ideal waters with our thinking sailboat.

(my cat actually gives me many opportunities to practice this resistance - whenever she does something cute, funny, silly, etc., which is often, and I feel the urge to make some comment on it, I try to remain present and quiet that urge. It's almost as if we are taking the outward flow of speech and redirecting it back inward so its energy can be repurposed for developing inner soul faculties)

What are the ports we are heading to, in a practical sense? These are the sense-free ideals that structure our individual and collective destiny. They precipitate into our Earthly existence as definite ages of Time and quite concrete tasks for each age that should be fulfilled if Earthly humanity is to continue harmonizing its rhythms with those of the Cosmos. For ex., there was a time when ancient cultures organized the reproductive process with alignments of the planets and stars because they knew, at a deeply experiential level, that these indicated that certain souls needed bodies to carry their important work on Earth, whatever that happened to be. As we know, because this flowed through the life of instincts and feeling, rather than lucid thinking, it was practically forced adherence to the Cosmic rhythms. Humanity was weaned off of that forced adherence through the evolution of lucid thinking consciousness. But now we can use that lucid consciousness to trace the karmic interconnections that would allow us to once again provide a favorable environment for incarnating souls. Otherwise, the current stream of humanity risks extinction. This is just one example - practically every sphere of cultural life - politics, economics, science, technology, religion, art, etc. - needs to be reimagined to resonate harmoniously with the higher-order intents. 

Before we do that, however, each individual has the task to purify, enliven, and strengthen the soul forces that would allow us to trace those supersensible karmic threads. That task, as with all other tasks, always begins in our thinking. In our thinking, we are still in a dialogue with the higher worlds, which we experience as intuitions, inspirations, imaginations, and concepts (these are all merged together in concepts for the normal consciousness), although it is becoming increasingly tenuous these days. Our feeling and willing activities are structured by the higher worlds, but we have practically no participation in these domains - it is a one-way dialogue. I have noticed on the spiritual path there is always the temptation to try and 'bypass' this concrete overlap in our thinking. Many other approaches promise more quick, intense, revolutionary, etc. experiences of spiritual reality, but for reasons discussed many times before, such as Cleric's last post, all of those are empty promises. We never make it past the soul world with such approaches, which appears as a psychic jungle with no overarching rhyme or reason. So we need to remain trusting and faithful to our lucid spiritual activity, through which we will gradually work our way into the deeper layers of feeling and willing as well.

By working our thinking through these metaphorical ideas about supersensible realities, we are already re-enlivening our thinking and making our way to a near port in the choppy seas. As long we don't confuse the metaphors for some metaphysical theory about the 'nature of reality' that we can passively absorb, but instead use them as symbols that point back at the ongoing flow of our inner experience, i.e. phenomenology, we are moving our thinking in ways that were simply unsuspected before, attaining new degrees of freedom for our spiritual activity. Right now, as you contemplate the meaning of the words above, you are probing the depths and dynamics of your own thinking. We should fluidly and continually move our intuitive activity through the ideas, read and reread as necessary, and cycle through the same lectures or posts a few times. This will be invaluable for when we engage in deeper concentration exercises through which our spiritual activity can retrace its flow into the deeper layers and find what is presented metaphorically as a completely inner reality. Then we will feel like, 'ok so this is the inner soul geometry that I had been probing in my thinking with all those posts.'
What is the most crucial part of humanities development in our time.

To get more control over the inner life?
To become more controlling about our lower nature?
Or maybe to understand thinking more deeply?

So I hope it's clear, these three are all the same. By understanding our thinking flow more deeply, and by retracing that flow into the deeper 'wavefunctions' from which our normal sequential thoughts collapse, we also gain consciousness and control over the lower nature and the inner life. Our thinking states are always riding on the waves of these deeper currents and we can only make sense of those states by knowing the currents, which, at the same time, is gaining more creative control over how we shape and harmonize the currents. I will refer here to very helpful metaphors from Cleric, which was also mentioned to Federica recently. 
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Federica
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Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by Federica »

Cleric K wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:30 pm (Greetings, Federica :D)
Hello, Cleric :)
Thanks to everyone participating in these new year discussions, and especially to you and Ashvin. The ever novel ways in which you keep capturing the high ideals shine bright in their afterglow. Thank you for the decisive difference you are making!
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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Federica
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Location: Sweden

Re: Jung and Steiner are friends

Post by Federica »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:32 pm
What is the most crucial part of humanities development in our time.

To get more control over the inner life?
To become more controlling about our lower nature?
Or maybe to understand thinking more deeply?

So I hope it's clear, these three are all the same. By understanding our thinking flow more deeply, and by retracing that flow into the deeper 'wavefunctions' from which our normal sequential thoughts collapse, we also gain consciousness and control over the lower nature and the inner life. Our thinking states are always riding on the waves of these deeper currents and we can only make sense of those states by knowing the currents, which, at the same time, is gaining more creative control over how we shape and harmonize the currents. I will refer here to very helpful metaphors from Cleric, which was also mentioned to Federica recently. 

I admit I don't remember the recent mention, so thanks for the repetition! That's been a challenging and humbling read.

Güney, I really hope you read it, and Scott and Luke too, and anyone else feeling ready to put some effort-in-progress in "understanding thinking more deeply", its process of formation from the inside, down to the perceived thought-contents we mysteriously awake to in an instant.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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