DMT occurs in many plants and animals, including humans, and is both a derivative and a structural analog of tryptamine. DMT is used as a psychedelic hallucinogenic drug (entheogen), and is also prepared by various native cultures for shamanic ritual purposes, known as AYAHUASCA:
I have participated in an authentic AYAHUASCA ceremony conducted by a native Amazonian shaman.
Scientifically speaking, essentially, we combine two material things — a material (chemical) brain with a material chemical molecule, DMT, the main ingredient of AYAHUASCA.
This material chemical molecule changes the chemistry of the material brain, which is responsible for the altered state of our conscious experience (hallucinations).
And what is the obvious conclusion ?
If a material chemical molecule can change the chemistry of our material chemical brain and thus produce an altered state of our conscious experience, then it follows that our normal state of consciousness is being produced by the normal chemistry of our brain. And this proves that materialism was correct all along, because the material basis of our conscious experience is clearly and obviously the normal chemistry of our brains.
The above is not some bogus idealistic philosophy.
The above is an experimental, empirical scientific fact.
Materialism is NOT baloney, and chemical machine consciousness is NOT Lunacy.
Your brain, due to it containing various chemicals (similar to
hallucinogenic drugs), simply hallucinates your conscious reality :
Jonathan Österman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:20 am
If a material chemical molecule can change the chemistry of our material chemical brain and thus produce an altered state of our conscious experience, then it follows that our normal state of consciousness is being produced by the normal chemistry of our brain. And this proves that materialism was correct all along, because the material basis of our conscious experience is clearly and obviously the normal chemistry of our brains.
The above is not some bogus idealistic philosophy.
The above is an experimental, empirical scientific fact.
The correlations between our senso-intellectual experiences and the nervous system are a clear fact, but do you conceive of levels of our subtler being which can reflect self-consciousness even without the cerebral apparatus? If that is the case, how far can we go by simply tweaking brain chemistry? It's obvious that whatever state of consciousness we achieve through altering brain chemistry will still be a pronouncedly cerebral one.
Let's look at a concrete example. There are many people who in psychedelic states have some insight about what existence between death and rebirth might be like, where obviously there's no longer a body and brain. But as you say above, this altered state is still largely shaped by the modified brain chemistry. If at peak experience all the DMT could be instantly sucked out of our bloodstream, we would probably feel in the way we do when we wake up in the morning from a dream and very quickly our dreamy drowsiness is replaced by rigid sensory perceptions and intellectual thoughts. In other words, in the psychedelic experience our insight about disembodied existence is still strongly colored by cerebral phenomena, we're still quite enmeshed in the bodily processes.
Does it seem plausible that proper development of consciousness into the Cosmic depth requires a kind of differentiation of inner experience, the ability to purify and delaminate the cerebral processes from the subtler strata of soul and spirit? I'm not saying this in the sense that the body and brain should be ignored. It's obvious that we can't operate without them, we can't even think in concepts about higher experiences without them, yet aren't we missing something if we simply reshuffle brain chemistry and experience alternative bodily states, without ever coming to know our higher being in its own nature? Or stated otherwise, could it be that proper expansion of consciousness consists in our spirit awakening at deeper strata of being and organizing the levels, all the way to the physical body, as a musical gradient?
An individual could be a full-blown Materialist and think of spiritual progress as the creation of a coherent fully functional brain - yes, this is good news. Having an incorrect philosophy is neither a barrier nor a prerequisite to spiritual progress.
lorenzop wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:34 pm
An individual could be a full-blown Materialist and think of spiritual progress as the creation of a coherent fully functional brain - yes, this is good news. Having an incorrect philosophy is neither a barrier nor a prerequisite to spiritual progress.
Do you agree this would leave the person with no orientation toward the most important spiritual question of our time - what happens after death? I was thinking the other day of how many thrilling movie plotlines and scripts would be rendered completely inert if people had a concrete orientation toward that question. So many are based on the fact that people have no idea how to interact with their fellow humans and the world around them, or quickly lapse into to the most base, corrupt, and brutal interactions under tempting circumstances, when they remain uncertain of whether there is existence after death or what that existence could look like in relation to their current existence. That, of course, reflects what audiences in general think and feel, and what history has shown we actually do. Is it 'spiritual progress' to remain in this state of crippling uncertainty forever?
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:26 am
Do you agree this would leave the person with no orientation toward the most important spiritual question of our time - what happens after death? I was thinking the other day of how many thrilling movie plotlines and scripts would be rendered completely inert if people had a concrete orientation toward that question. So many are based on the fact that people have no idea how to interact with their fellow humans and the world around them, or quickly lapse into to the most base, corrupt, and brutal interactions under tempting circumstances, when they remain uncertain of whether there is existence after death or what that existence could look like in relation to their current existence. That, of course, reflects what audiences in general think and feel, and what history has shown we actually do. Is it 'spiritual progress' to remain in this state of crippling uncertainty forever?
I don't see the What happens after death as an important spiritual question - I'd say that the important spiritual question is how to reclaim one's spiritual heritage (or however one would like to state it), then having reclaimed the spirit, and not having been born ,one is thereby no longer subject to death.
It's about not-dying.
The body is vulnerable and complex, and we can and should protect it. But the spirit can not be touched.
But you're right knowing what happens after we die would make a great movie - but then, we don't even know what's going to happen tomorrow.
Jonathan Österman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:20 am
If a material chemical molecule can change the chemistry of our material chemical brain and thus produce an altered state of our conscious experience, then it follows that our normal state of consciousness is being produced by the normal chemistry of our brain. And this proves that materialism was correct all along, because the material basis of our conscious experience is clearly and obviously the normal chemistry of our brains.
The above is not some bogus idealistic philosophy.
The above is an experimental, empirical scientific fact.
Materialism is NOT baloney, and chemical machine consciousness is NOT Lunacy.
AshvinP wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:26 am
Do you agree this would leave the person with no orientation toward the most important spiritual question of our time - what happens after death? I was thinking the other day of how many thrilling movie plotlines and scripts would be rendered completely inert if people had a concrete orientation toward that question. So many are based on the fact that people have no idea how to interact with their fellow humans and the world around them, or quickly lapse into to the most base, corrupt, and brutal interactions under tempting circumstances, when they remain uncertain of whether there is existence after death or what that existence could look like in relation to their current existence. That, of course, reflects what audiences in general think and feel, and what history has shown we actually do. Is it 'spiritual progress' to remain in this state of crippling uncertainty forever?
I don't see the What happens after death as an important spiritual question - I'd say that the important spiritual question is how to reclaim one's spiritual heritage (or however one would like to state it), then having reclaimed the spirit, and not having been born ,one is thereby no longer subject to death.
It's about not-dying.
The body is vulnerable and complex, and we can and should protect it. But the spirit can not be touched.
But you're right knowing what happens after we die would make a great movie - but then, we don't even know what's going to happen tomorrow.
This was in the context of your comment that a materialist, who doesn't believe in any spirit to reclaim, can still make 'spiritual progress'. This materialist believes that individual conscious existence must evaporate with the cessation of brain functioning at death. My comment on the movies was to illustrate how this way of thinking is directly responsible for all the pathological ways people behave towards each other when confronted with the question of death. The entertainment and coherence of the movie plotlines come directly from the fact that most audiences feel it's entirely reasonable for the protagonist to go on revenge fantasies when a loved one is murdered, or to take all sorts of extreme and immoral measures when they fear their own physical death. We feel it's reasonable and an entertaining basis for a plotline because that's how we also think about our relationships with other human beings - at the core it is about using others to extract as much personal pleasure, satisfaction, happiness, comfort, etc. for ourselves while we are alive, because who knows what if anything will happen after death.
The other point is that this entertained audience is not limited to philosophical materialists, but includes theists and mystics as well. How? Because, in general, the abstract concepts of 'life after death', 'spirit to reclaim', 'not-dying', etc. are not sufficient to penetrate the deeper layers of feeling and will. Neither are the brain-induced visionary states. We still don't have inner certainty that death is only the beginning of a new phase of our journey in spirit and in truth, because floating concepts cannot provide that to us. Indeed, they hardly provide us any inner certainty of what's going to happen tomorrow. Just because the Sun has risen every previous day, the abstract intellect doesn't know that it's going to rise again tomorrow. So is it any wonder that people are starting to live every day like it's their last one, to 'eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die'? It reminds me of this old 90s rap:
Eat, drink, be merry, rape and murder some people, for tomorrow we die. We don't take these hints seriously enough yet, but we should. They won't remain in the floating sphere of thinking forever. Eventually, this nihilistic thinking will shape the landscape around us, as it already has started to in pronounced ways. Our thinking can only be redeemed when it begins to experience itself in its native spiritual element, liberated from the fear-fueled machinations of the brain. Whether that brain is on coffee, crack, or ayahuasca, philosophizing materialistically or mystically, makes no difference - it still knows nothing of the solid redemptive potential across the threshold of death.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
Jonathan Österman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:20 am
If a material chemical molecule can change the chemistry of our material chemical brain and thus produce an altered state of our conscious experience, then it follows that our normal state of consciousness is being produced by the normal chemistry of our brain. And this proves that materialism was correct all along, because the material basis of our conscious experience is clearly and obviously the normal chemistry of our brains.
The above is not some bogus idealistic philosophy.
The above is an experimental, empirical scientific fact.
Materialism is NOT baloney, and chemical machine consciousness is NOT Lunacy.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
