Your brain on AYAHUASCA

[Jonathan Österman]

Jon, there's a simple misconception here.

What you call 'spiritual reality' is falling from one experience of Maya into another.

My dear friend Cleric, with all due respect, there's a simple misconception in what you wrote above.

What you, my dear friend Cleric, call 'spiritual reality' is, with all due respect, an obvious falling from one experience of Maya into another.

[Cleric K]

My dear friend Cleric, with all due respect, there's a simple misconception in what you wrote above.

What you, my dear friend Cleric, call 'spiritual reality' is, with all due respect, an obvious falling from one experience of Maya into another.

OK, let's take it slowly and synchronize our vocabularies.

Let's start with an analogy. Imagine what reality is for an animal. A stray cat or a bird certainly adapt very well to our city environment and this environment certainly impresses in certain ways in their instinctive consciousness but I guess most will agree that when a the cat stands in front of a courthouse it certainly doesn't experience what man experiences (we put aside that there could be men who don't experience much more than the cat either). A courthouse makes sense in human consciousness only if we grasp the intricacies of human existence - civilization, society, ideologies, religions, morals, norms, laws, enforcement, freedom, architecture and so on. All of these things are part of our thinking life - our life in ideas. We don't simply navigate the stream of existence by instinctively pushing towards pleasure and pulling away from pain, but we live in an intuitive context, we have some form of a World conception. We have some idea about what existence is, what our place in the world is, how we should direct our life and so on. This whole ideal stratum of our existence can be considered to be occult (hidden) from the perspective of the animal. The stray cat moves through the elemental landscape, it climbs the trash bin, finds food scraps there but it doesn't understand the industries that have mined the tin ore, forged the metal sheets, formed them into a bin, it doesn't understand the business of waste management, it doesn't understand the complicated food market, it doesn't understand the inner reasoning of the human that led him to throw the food away. Yet we as humans know very well that the bin and the food scraps are there only because all these things are facts in the stratum of our ideal life.

Now what you call spiritual reality is really the impression taken from an altered state of consciousness. Think about it: in what ways your intuition of existence has expanded after you beheld the etheric landscape? Do you understand better how life originated? Did you see why there are stars and planets? Why there are mineral, plant, animal and human kingdoms? Did you see what the place of man is within the Cosmic mystery? What is the direction worth pursuing? Did you see what happens with the soul after death? Whether it returns back in the sensory spectrum?

And before listing the insights you have received, ask yourself if they were really given to you by the altered state or they were things that in one way or another you had already heard or read about, but the psychedelic experience made them much more graphic, much more convincing and worth taking more seriously.

In order to synchronize our vocabularies, it has to be clear that when I speak about spiritual reality, I mean it in the sense that what our human condition is towards that reality, is what the stray cat's condition is towards the world of human ideal life. In other words, what we perceive and think about - including the psychedelic landscape - is only what we can make out of existence through our present human scale intuition.

If the stray cat finds a new fancy trash bin with LED lights and subwoofers, it can go to its pals and say "You know nothing, I've seen the real stuff. Come with me and I'll show you." Yet in the end these trash bins serve the same old purpose - to find food scraps there. No matter how shiny they are, it will never occur to the cat that there's a whole world of ideas without which that trash bin would never exist.



I hope that it is clearer now what I mean by 'spiritual reality'. It is the higher order experiences of the human spirit which unites with the ideal flow of the Cosmos and can comprehend the occult reasons for the picture of the World being what it is. This understanding is not simply to satisfy our curiosity but the only way in which we can find a proper direction for our existence.

Is this explanation clear? Is it conceivable that there could a whole Cosmic World of meaningful intents, which constitute the 'curvature' through which our existence flows, so to speak, and that without any effort on our side, this World remains just as occult as the human world is for the cat?

If this is understood and you still dislike the term 'spiritual reality' maybe simply propose another term and say why you find it better suited. Maybe you disliked my previous explanations because they looked too intellectual, too schematic and dry compared to the mindboggling intensity of the psychedelic state. Probably I look like those poor old academics that spend their lifetime in shadowy concepts chasing each other in a cold lonely mind-void with cobwebs and age old dust. It is conceivable that from this perspective it looks like one has wasted their life if they have never experienced the intensity, the infinite fractal resolution of the psychedelic state.

But let me state that just as human understanding doesn't diminish the perception of the flashy garbage bin - instead it makes the experience even more deep and meaningful - so the spiritual reality we're talking about doesn't diminish the intensity of the inner spectrum but organizes it and makes it much more meaningful through the higher order intuition. The intensity of the states the we reach through proper inner development far surpasses anything that we can achieve through tweaking of brain chemistry.

[lorenzop]

I hope that it is clearer now what I mean by 'spiritual reality'. It is the higher order experiences of the human spirit which unites with the ideal flow of the Cosmos and can comprehend the occult reasons for the picture of the World being what it is. This understanding is not simply to satisfy our curiosity but the only way in which we can find a proper direction for our existence.

This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.

[Cleric K]

This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.

When you express like that you indirectly affirm your position that the wisest thing man can do on Earth is to withdraw from everything and let the movie of the life pass by, while we find comfort in our transcendental inner armchair.

What I still wonder about is whether you feel this as an absolute truth (I guess it is, since you call everything else glistering Maya)? Or there's at least a tiny part of your deep conscience which wonders whether this is the best approach?

This is fairly obvious in our practical life. If we close our eyes for some of our daily problems, like a dripping roof, things will only get worse and worse each day until the roof collapses on our head. What gives you the certainty that this does not hold for existence on a larger scale? Is there some part of you that worries that by choosing transcendental comfort, you may be missing opportunities to give healthier direction of existence both on the personal and collective level, and this may show its fruits (or lack thereof) in the future?

Really, from what source does this powerful confidence stems, which allows you to see any attempt to understand the depth of reality - not for personal fame and power but for the Good of all - as a quest for the Golden Calf? Can you describe the kind of experience which gives you this certainty, that by choosing transcendental recoil, you are doing the best possible thing for your personal stream of becoming? It must be a quite powerful experience (or unshakable belief) if it allows you to see anything else as vain quest for power in the relative world.

[lorenzop]

This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.

When you express like that you indirectly affirm your position that the wisest thing man can do on Earth is to withdraw from everything and let the movie of the life pass by, while we find comfort in our transcendental inner armchair.

What I still wonder about is whether you feel this as an absolute truth (I guess it is, since you call everything else glistering Maya)? Or there's at least a tiny part of your deep conscience which wonders whether this is the best approach?

This is fairly obvious in our practical life. If we close our eyes for some of our daily problems, like a dripping roof, things will only get worse and worse each day until the roof collapses on our head. What gives you the certainty that this does not hold for existence on a larger scale? Is there some part of you that worries that by choosing transcendental comfort, you may be missing opportunities to give healthier direction of existence both on the personal and collective level, and this may show its fruits (or lack thereof) in the future?

Really, from what source does this powerful confidence stems, which allows you to see any attempt to understand the depth of reality - not for personal fame and power but for the Good of all - as a quest for the Golden Calf? Can you describe the kind of experience which gives you this certainty, that by choosing transcendental recoil, you are doing the best possible thing for your personal stream of becoming? It must be a quite powerful experience (or unshakable belief) if it allows you to see anything else as vain quest for power in the relative world.

No I am not suggesting this . . . I am rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar, and unto the Father what is Fathers. I am using words correctly.

[AshvinP]

I hope that it is clearer now what I mean by 'spiritual reality'. It is the higher order experiences of the human spirit which unites with the ideal flow of the Cosmos and can comprehend the occult reasons for the picture of the World being what it is. This understanding is not simply to satisfy our curiosity but the only way in which we can find a proper direction for our existence.

This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.

In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.

It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.

[lorenzop]

I hope that it is clearer now what I mean by 'spiritual reality'. It is the higher order experiences of the human spirit which unites with the ideal flow of the Cosmos and can comprehend the occult reasons for the picture of the World being what it is. This understanding is not simply to satisfy our curiosity but the only way in which we can find a proper direction for our existence.

This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.

In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.

It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.

NO NO NO
There is nothing wrong with seeking influence in the world - just call it what it is!!! Don't call it 'spirituality'.

[AshvinP]

This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.

In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.

It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.

NO NO NO
There is nothing wrong with seeking influence in the world - just call it what it is!!! Don't call it 'spirituality'.

Then you aren't using words correctly, Lorenzo. Every spiritual tradition of the world has embraced and continues to embrace the development of 'influence', in the way you have characterized it. For ex. Buddhism embraces the development of deeper insight and virtues via the eightfold path.

Right View or Right Understanding: Insight into the true nature of reality
Right Intention: The unselfish desire to realize enlightenment
Right Speech: Using speech compassionately
Right Action: Using ethical conduct to manifest compassion
Right Livelihood: Making a living through ethical and nonharmful means
Right Effort: Cultivating wholesome qualities and releasing unwholesome qualities
Right Mindfulness: Whole body-and-mind awareness
Right Concentration: Meditation or some other dedicated, concentrated practice

The word translated as "right" is samyanc (Sanskrit) or samma (Pali), which means "wise," "wholesome," "skillful," and "ideal." It also describes something that is complete and coherent.

Is this 'spirituality', according to you, or just seeking the golden calf of influence in the relative world?

[Jonathan Österman]

This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.

In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.

It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.

NO NO NO
There is nothing wrong with seeking influence in the world -
just call it what it is!!! Don't call it 'spirituality'.

I call it as I see it, a pseudo-spiritual materialism,
or a baloney-Idealism.

The way I subjectively see it, all that Cleric & Ashwin-GPT-4 are doing
on this forum is trying their best and working hard 24/7
to influence as many people as possible.

Ashwin & Cleric are so-called internet INFLUENCERS,
in my humble subjective opinion.

[lorenzop]

In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.

It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.

NO NO NO
There is nothing wrong with seeking influence in the world - just call it what it is!!! Don't call it 'spirituality'.

Then you aren't using words correctly, Lorenzo. Every spiritual tradition of the world has embraced and continues to embrace the development of 'influence', in the way you have characterized it. For ex. Buddhism embraces the development of deeper insight and virtues via the eightfold path.

Right View or Right Understanding: Insight into the true nature of reality
Right Intention: The unselfish desire to realize enlightenment
Right Speech: Using speech compassionately
Right Action: Using ethical conduct to manifest compassion
Right Livelihood: Making a living through ethical and nonharmful means
Right Effort: Cultivating wholesome qualities and releasing unwholesome qualities
Right Mindfulness: Whole body-and-mind awareness
Right Concentration: Meditation or some other dedicated, concentrated practice

The word translated as "right" is samyanc (Sanskrit) or samma (Pali), which means "wise," "wholesome," "skillful," and "ideal." It also describes something that is complete and coherent.

Is this 'spirituality', according to you, or just seeking the golden calf of influence in the relative world?

The list of right actions in the world is what traditions offer as a substitute when they've lost their spiritual edge (and all traditions lose their edge) . . . or if they offer a spiritual technique, the list is offered as secondary.
The Golden Calf is selling something shiny as spiritual.
Angels, Knowledge of Atlantis, knowledge of person-beings of planets, cognition of fire-breathing early humans . . . this is all shiny stuff which if is what you're into, fine . . . just call it what it is.