My dear friend Cleric, with all due respect, there's a simple misconception in what you wrote above.
What you, my dear friend Cleric, call 'spiritual reality' is, with all due respect, an obvious falling from one experience of Maya into another.
My dear friend Cleric, with all due respect, there's a simple misconception in what you wrote above.
OK, let's take it slowly and synchronize our vocabularies.Jonathan Österman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:53 pm My dear friend Cleric, with all due respect, there's a simple misconception in what you wrote above.
What you, my dear friend Cleric, call 'spiritual reality' is, with all due respect, an obvious falling from one experience of Maya into another.
This is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:30 pm
I hope that it is clearer now what I mean by 'spiritual reality'. It is the higher order experiences of the human spirit which unites with the ideal flow of the Cosmos and can comprehend the occult reasons for the picture of the World being what it is. This understanding is not simply to satisfy our curiosity but the only way in which we can find a proper direction for our existence.
When you express like that you indirectly affirm your position that the wisest thing man can do on Earth is to withdraw from everything and let the movie of the life pass by, while we find comfort in our transcendental inner armchair.
No I am not suggesting this . . . I am rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar, and unto the Father what is Fathers. I am using words correctly.Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:26 pmWhen you express like that you indirectly affirm your position that the wisest thing man can do on Earth is to withdraw from everything and let the movie of the life pass by, while we find comfort in our transcendental inner armchair.
What I still wonder about is whether you feel this as an absolute truth (I guess it is, since you call everything else glistering Maya)? Or there's at least a tiny part of your deep conscience which wonders whether this is the best approach?
This is fairly obvious in our practical life. If we close our eyes for some of our daily problems, like a dripping roof, things will only get worse and worse each day until the roof collapses on our head. What gives you the certainty that this does not hold for existence on a larger scale? Is there some part of you that worries that by choosing transcendental comfort, you may be missing opportunities to give healthier direction of existence both on the personal and collective level, and this may show its fruits (or lack thereof) in the future?
Really, from what source does this powerful confidence stems, which allows you to see any attempt to understand the depth of reality - not for personal fame and power but for the Good of all - as a quest for the Golden Calf? Can you describe the kind of experience which gives you this certainty, that by choosing transcendental recoil, you are doing the best possible thing for your personal stream of becoming? It must be a quite powerful experience (or unshakable belief) if it allows you to see anything else as vain quest for power in the relative world.
lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:52 pmThis is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:30 pm
I hope that it is clearer now what I mean by 'spiritual reality'. It is the higher order experiences of the human spirit which unites with the ideal flow of the Cosmos and can comprehend the occult reasons for the picture of the World being what it is. This understanding is not simply to satisfy our curiosity but the only way in which we can find a proper direction for our existence.
NO NO NOAshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:24 pmlorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:52 pmThis is a perfect textbook description of Ultimate Glistening Maya - that Golden Calf. Calling this Maya does not suggest it's wrong to seek this - there is nothing wrong with seeking power\influence in the relative world - just call it what it is.Cleric K wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:30 pm
I hope that it is clearer now what I mean by 'spiritual reality'. It is the higher order experiences of the human spirit which unites with the ideal flow of the Cosmos and can comprehend the occult reasons for the picture of the World being what it is. This understanding is not simply to satisfy our curiosity but the only way in which we can find a proper direction for our existence.
In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.
It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.
lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:46 pmNO NO NOAshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:24 pm
In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.
It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.
There is nothing wrong with seeking influence in the world - just call it what it is!!! Don't call it 'spirituality'.
The word translated as "right" is samyanc (Sanskrit) or samma (Pali), which means "wise," "wholesome," "skillful," and "ideal." It also describes something that is complete and coherent.
lorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:46 pmAshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:24 pm
In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.
It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.
NO NO NO
There is nothing wrong with seeking influence in the world -
just call it what it is!!! Don't call it 'spirituality'.
The list of right actions in the world is what traditions offer as a substitute when they've lost their spiritual edge (and all traditions lose their edge) . . . or if they offer a spiritual technique, the list is offered as secondary.AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:44 pmlorenzop wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:46 pmNO NO NOAshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:24 pm
In this sense, seeking the intuition that makes sense of "1+1=2", or "a^2 + b^2 = c^2", is also seeking the golden calf, or power/influence in the relative world. Basically, life itself and any attempt to make sense of it is a golden calf. Being on this forum is seeking the golden calf. Learning how to play an instrument or cook a healthy meal is a golden calf. That is the only way to make sense of your comments unless you can clarify them in another way.
It's interesting that the Hebrews started worshipping the golden calf after they escaped the tyranny of Egypt and rested comfortably in the wilderness, not desiring to push further toward the promised land. The golden calf is worshipped when we stand still in the here-and-now, not realizing that our freedom from tyranny was meant to lead toward something higher, some higher potential that is not only pleasing to ourselves but is capable of paying forward the grace bestowed on us to our fellow beings. The golden calf is forgetting our history, ignoring our future, and becoming perfectly complacent where we are.
There is nothing wrong with seeking influence in the world - just call it what it is!!! Don't call it 'spirituality'.
Then you aren't using words correctly, Lorenzo. Every spiritual tradition of the world has embraced and continues to embrace the development of 'influence', in the way you have characterized it. For ex. Buddhism embraces the development of deeper insight and virtues via the eightfold path.
Right View or Right Understanding: Insight into the true nature of reality
Right Intention: The unselfish desire to realize enlightenment
Right Speech: Using speech compassionately
Right Action: Using ethical conduct to manifest compassion
Right Livelihood: Making a living through ethical and nonharmful means
Right Effort: Cultivating wholesome qualities and releasing unwholesome qualities
Right Mindfulness: Whole body-and-mind awareness
Right Concentration: Meditation or some other dedicated, concentrated practice
The word translated as "right" is samyanc (Sanskrit) or samma (Pali), which means "wise," "wholesome," "skillful," and "ideal." It also describes something that is complete and coherent.
Is this 'spirituality', according to you, or just seeking the golden calf of influence in the relative world?