Channelling

[AshvinP]

Thank you Ash for your insights.

Channelers often claim to be spiritually oriented and caring. But as outsiders, we can’t know how enlightened they really are or how much they cultivate their spiritual abilities. This is why I would prefer to judge by results: if I hear output that is worthwhile (detailed, specific, helpful), I would not speak dismissively of them.

Ben,

Do you agree that, if there are higher intelligences who actually dialogue with humans through channeling or any other means, then we must necessarily conceive of human development as following a telos, a curvature of intent-driven development whose source cannot be found in the sensory realm?

Now what if that telos involves what all ancient spirituality has spoken of as theosis, reintegration with the Divine, a reversal of the Fall, a return to one's true nature, etc.? In other words, the telos is what projects into our sensory realm as the process of evolution towards more and more sentient and creative and moral forms of life.

The only point of mentioning this is to bring attention to the possibility that what you are asking for - tailor-made output in 'natural language' that is capable of convincing even the most skeptical of skeptics - could be in direct opposition to the telos. We have to consider the possibility that what helps us fulfill the telos is exactly the opposite of what we are asking for in the way of 'proof' (which we only started demanding within a few hundred year spectrum out of millions of years of evolution). And this isn't a complete what IF, because as mentioned, it is also supported by every ancient spiritual tradition that integrates an evolutionary outlook of Earthly humanity back to the Divine.

In that scenario, we are sort of like children who have been told by their parents that they need to become independent, move out of the house, start working and earn their own money. Then the child says to the parents, "OK sure, I'll do that as soon as you go find me an apartment, furnish it, get me a job, and put enough money into my bank account to live for a few decades." The child wants to get everything new through its old ways of dependent being, instead of sacrificing the old and growing into the new. This is the issue we see all too often in spiritual pursuits, and I used to think channeled messages delivered to us on a platter were the low hanging fruit. Now apparently even they require too much effort.

[Lou Gold]

The text A Course in Miracles was channeled by a non-believer and became a path of serious spiritual work.

On the general questions of truth/fakery or fact/fiction some might enjoy this brief take on the issue: The Real Gift of the Magi

I wish a good 2024 for all. ALOHA!

[Ben Iscatus]

Ash, I think you’re saying I’m lazy. But I say that if an Intelligence is higher, it ought to be able to (and try to) communicate easily and clearly with an Intelligence that is lower. Obsurantism may conceal malignity (didn't Nietzsche say this?)

I don’t see evidence that we’re evolving. We’re much the same people we were thousands of years ago. History repeats itself – civilisations rise and fall. Our technology has advanced, but at the cost of sustainability, resource depletion, ecosystem destruction, pollution and of course a materialist, consumerist mindset. Our civilisation will fall. Our species will probably revert to simpler ways once again. It is possible that you have a blind spot: you assume the truth of the myth of progress.

Other myths are possible: for instance, that the Universe may wish to express itself in myriad ways in order to know itself as much as it can, and has no plan beyond that. It may not even wish to improve itself. Our Western Christian myth depended on suppression of gospels and genocide - of the Cathars, for instance, which led on to the genocidal policy of the Crusades. And let us not forget the modern scientific myth of Entropy. I prefer to keep an open mind; I'm in no position to make assumptions about what Reality is trying to do.

[Ben Iscatus]

Lou, thanks - a very good point!

[AshvinP]

Ash, I think you’re saying I’m lazy. But I say that if an Intelligence is higher, it ought to be able to (and try to) communicate easily and clearly with an Intelligence that is lower. Obsurantism may conceal malignity (didn't Nietzsche say this?)

I don’t see evidence that we’re evolving. We’re much the same people we were thousands of years ago. History repeats itself – civilisations rise and fall. Our technology has advanced, but at the cost of sustainability, resource depletion, ecosystem destruction, pollution and of course a materialist, consumerist mindset. Our civilisation will fall. Our species will probably revert to simpler ways once again. It is possible that you have a blind spot: you assume the truth of the myth of progress.

Other myths are possible: for instance, that the Universe may wish to express itself in myriad ways in order to know itself as much as it can, and has no plan beyond that. It may not even wish to improve itself. Our Western Christian myth depended on suppression of gospels and genocide - of the Cathars, for instance, which led on to the genocidal policy of the Crusades. And let us not forget the modern scientific myth of Entropy. I prefer to keep an open mind; I'm in no position to make assumptions about what Reality is trying to do.

I get that, Ben. This is the only thing I am pointing attention to - do you see how our underlying soul moods and assumptions about the telos or non-telos, the myth of progress or the myth of regress to pre-civilization, structures the sort of questions we think to ask and the sort of answers we expect to receive? How it influences what can even count as 'evidence' and 'answers' for us?

There is no point debating the possible myths. We need to reach a deeper level of discussion if any concrete advance is to be made towards people reaching a shared understanding on these issues, which I am assuming is still something the people on this forum value. Pointing to possible myths and their implications is simply a way for us to notice how much we could be missing in our framing of questions and expectations of answers - it is a way of at least slightly relaxing and opening the horizons of our thinking.

[Lou Gold]

Falsehoods are one way to look at myths. Another way is to view myths as analogous to other language forms such as mathematical theories or musical compositions or the plastic representations of art and sculpture or meditations. As tools leading to something much more profound they can open doors of perception and/or train the mind for deeper more aware inquiry. As the Magi story concludes, it can be useful to have a star. Personally, I feel grateful for the immense number of stars in the divine diversity of galaxies.

[Lou Gold]

The Largest Structure In The Universe!

This gigantic supercluster is the largest known structure in the universe, it consists of 830 separate galaxies which are inside of 4 connected galaxy clusters. The supercluster is known as the “BOSS”, the entire structure stretches approximately 1 billion light years across.

(source: NASA James Webb Telescope)

[ScottRoberts]

Ash, I think you’re saying I’m lazy. But I say that if an Intelligence is higher, it ought to be able to (and try to) communicate easily and clearly with an Intelligence that is lower. Obsurantism may conceal malignity (didn't Nietzsche say this?)

Can an adult explain quantum physics to a six-year old? By and large, that is, I think, our situation. Higher intelligences can tell us some things, for example, that idealism is true, or that a reincarnation/karma scenario is, of the post-mortem possibilities that religions have claimed, the one to take seriously. But it can't tell us "what it is like" to be a higher intelligence, just as an adult cannot explain to a child "what it is like" to be an adult.

I don’t see evidence that we’re evolving. We’re much the same people we were thousands of years ago. History repeats itself – civilisations rise and fall. Our technology has advanced, but at the cost of sustainability, resource depletion, ecosystem destruction, pollution and of course a materialist, consumerist mindset. Our civilisation will fall. Our species will probably revert to simpler ways once again. It is possible that you have a blind spot: you assume the truth of the myth of progress.

I disagree. There is lots of evidence. Compare literature. Could a Greek in Homeric times have made any sense of, say, Waiting for Godot? Why don't we write epics like the Iliad? Or compare Gregorian Chants to punk rock. Anyway, if you want a detailed presentation of the evidence, check out Owen Barfield's Saving the Appearances: A Study in Idolatry.

[Lou Gold]

Scott,

"Evolving" is a tricky word. There surely has been evolution but whether or not it's been a progress is controversial. Many would argue that the human species has not evolved toward a better balance with its earthly environment or that rising material production has not resulted in greater happiness. I'm not trying to take a particular side but rather point out that "evolution" is surely change and adaptation but whether or not it's been a progress beyond a process is debatable.

[Ben Iscatus]

A few basic comparisons of ACIM and the Seth material:

ACIM appears to be more in keeping with Eastern traditions – it sees the ego as something that needs to be discarded; but it has the Christian idea of forgiveness as the means of doing this (ultimately, forgiving oneself for our illusory separation from God). It seems to replace an individual soul or higher self with the singular Holy Spirit acting through us. The aim is to transcend the illusion of the physical world and rejoin God, untouched by the ego's dreams of separation.

The Seth material seems more in line with Anthroposophy in saying the ego can be expanded to gain greater understanding of Reality. Ultimately, it suggests we come from God ("All That Is") and are exploring on God's behalf.

ACIM doesn’t teach reincarnation, but seems to imply it. The Seth material is explicit about reincarnation.

ACIM seems to have no concept of higher nonphysical dimensions (other than God’s dimension of Spirit), whereas the Seth material does – it also has a big thing about varying probable realities by changing our thoughts and beliefs.