KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

[lorenzop]

As I said, nobody denies agency and responsibility here, it's just that agency does not need the "agent" to be able to act.

I wish that were true, Eugene, but the pattern of comments shows otherwise. This is why you feel the Earthly kingdoms cannot evolve to more spiritual stages through human spiritual activity, why reincarnation is optional for those who conceive themselves as enlightened, why there are many multi-dimensional hierarchies of Divine intents that we can work with or not, why the concrete spiritual curvatures that shape your preferences, temperament, character, etc. cannot be known from their first-person perspective, and many similar things. It conveniently allows you to disclaim all responsibility for intimately knowing and shaping those curvatures while you are still alive.

Again, it is a secret denial of agency and responsibility because it is not outwardly spoken, but inwardly revealed through the conceptual patterns that emerge over many iterations of the same discussions on this forum. It all comes from secretly reserving for oneself an unconditioned, all-encompassing Divine perspective from which everything else is 'exoteric', 'dualistic', 'mundane', 'lower stages', and so forth. Then one feels 'safe' that the grounds of existence have been reached and all 'lower' cognitive work can be done at one's pleasure, in whatever way feels most comfortable. That conveniently allows one to escape all creative responsibility for the most proximate curvatures of destiny, i.e. those shaping our thought-life (such as abstract 3rd-person metaphysical habits of thinking) and our deeper soul-life.  It is why you completely avoided Cleric's question in the last post.

As we have discussed before, it will come as a great shock to souls that cross the threshold of death when they awaken to the fact that, by abstracting out to 'pure ATW' in their smeared-out thinking, they missed the entire spiritual Cosmos and the Earthly opportunities to become more creatively involved in the higher-order curvatures after death. There will be immense regret that the greatest Cosmic secrets were embedded right within what the "I" was doing when it disclaimed its own reality, and this will provide the basis for reapproaching the same opportunities for awakening in the next incarnation. These things are all known, Eugene. And it is also known the conceptual pattern in response to these facts will be to reflexively accuse of tyranny and elitism and whatever else comes forth when dispassionate logical reasoning through the ideas ceases. Nevertheless, these are the facts revealed by spiritual perception and accessible to all healthy reasoning that is but a more constrained form of that spiritual perception. There is only 'dualistic perception' so long as the reasoning "I" remains unaware of its intuitive movements, either by absolutizing the personal ego or inflating it to Cosmic scale and pretending it no longer exists.

Ashwin, exactly the point. As long as one identifies with the separate self there will always be a lacking, a sense of something missing. It doesn’t matter the depth of one’s achievements or how many angels one has hugged, or how many celestial curvatures one has trodden . . .

[Cleric K]

 
Perfect agency and responsibility can only be accomplished when the world of duality is transcended by the direct knowledge of the One which is inseparable from the World it creates. In this case the World is not rejected, but fully embraced as the expression of the One and can be brought to the harmony with the One. The World can come to peace and order only when its structures and its knowledge are coherent with the One that creates it. When the world and its beings do not know the One, their perception of the world is inevitably dualistic and fragmented, and all their attempts to build the structures of perfect order are futile, because it will always be subject to the pendulum of dualities, of good and bad, of me and other,no matter how they organize their hierarchies.  

 
  

 
Ashwin, exactly the point. As long as one identifies with the separate self there will always be a lacking, a sense of something missing. It doesn’t matter the depth of one’s achievements or how many angels one has hugged, or how many celestial curvatures one has trodden . . . 

 
  
I propose to bookmark Ashvin's post with because it really points to the root cause of all these discussions. All talks about I, not-I, and so on, only circumambulate around this center. We can use this symbol to quickly return to the core when we wander too far. 
  
Let's remind that we all agree on the following: 
Intuitive fact #1: In our deepest essence we feel to be One with the fundamental Being of existence 
Intuitive fact #2: The metamorphoses of our being are constrained by many factors which we can label as physical, organic, temperament, habits, desires, passions, sympathies, antipathies, mental patterns, etc. In a sense, the pure potential of Being is sieved through these constraints and experienced as limited existence through spatiotemporal metamorphosis.
  
These are intuitive facts (IFs) we all agree on. The divergences come only when we raise the question: what should the thus constrained in a human form Being do while going through this spatiotemporal metamorphosis? Or simply: what is our (human form) role in all this, is there anything we should be striving towards in our Earthly existence?
  
Here things quickly reduce from intuitive facts into speculations/beliefs. And they can be countless. To name a few: 
Speculation #1: Nothing really matters as long as we dream through the Earthly state while holding fast to the IFs. Everything else is provisional, quite external to Being. In this view, we don't even know if Being preserves continuity of consciousness after death. We choose to simply have a peaceful journey in the embrace of Being, without any concern about the true nature of the constraints.
Speculation #2: Real life in freedom begins after death. All layers of constraints are left behind at the moment of death so it's quite useless to focus on them while still in a body - they have absolutely no relevance after death. We need to hold fast to the IFs in order to fully emerge from the constraints at the moment of death (that is, we shouldn't allow for residual connections which may drag us back). The constraints themselves are inessential. Studying them while on Earth is entirely optional (only if we are curious) and serves no purpose in higher life. All that counts is our ability to hold on to the IFs, without being distracted by the Demirugal constraints.
Speculation #3: The constraints matter. Immediately after death, we loosen only the physical constraints but still live within the others. Yet on Earth we still need to focus on the IFs. We're too limited in our physical state to work creatively and redemptively on the invisible constraints. On Earth our job is simply to know our true limitless nature. The conditions to transform the constraints will be much more favorable after death. Then we'll work on them with freer and clearer consciousness. 
  
These speculations can go on and on. They are not simply different versions of the same truth but may be quite mutually exclusive. 
  
Yet there's one thing in common (besides the IFs). None of these speculations follow in some clear way from the IFs. There's simply no intuitive connection that can be explicated. For example, there's no logical sense in saying: "I'm One with the Essential Being, thus nothing needs to be done on Earth, except holding on to this fact." There's simply no logical connection here. We can say such a thing only by unknowingly holding on to a whole secret spiritual cosmology. There are tons of assumptions that need to be made if such a connection is to make sense, and none of them follow directly from the pure intuitive fact. Based only on the IFs we can't even rule out materialism (in some panpsychic form)!

Ultimately, the Essential Being constrained in the form of a human ego speculates about the possible ways it can liberate itself and return to its true essence. Death is the final arbiter. Each speculation is like a bet and we only see whether we have placed our chips on the winning horse at the moment of death.
  
My questions to both Eugene and Lorenzo are: 
Question #1: Do you understand in full lucid clarity all the above? Do you understand the distinction between the IFs (on which we all agree) and what human beings decide to do with their life based on these facts? Do you understand that none of the speculations above logically follow from the general IFs?
Question #2: Do you understand that death is being held as the final arbiter, that it is assumed that truth can never be known until then, and thus one justifies saying "Well, no one knows and no one can know, so the most we can do is place our bets on the speculation that feels most sympathetic to our constrained heart."

Yet there's one special speculation that says: "What if death doesn't solve anything? What if the transformation of the invisible constraints needs to be done here and now?" Please notice that this is the only speculation that has the possibility to be verified while still on Earth. Every other speculation requires that we wait for something external to happen, only then we can verify the outcome of our bet.

Here's a hint on how to make the gravity of the situation more evident. Imagine that there's no death, we're bound to continue this embodied life with no foreseeable end. Or alternatively, imagine that we're already dead. This physical existence is simply how our unborn state feels like. We've got stuck in some spiritual dimension that feels physical to the touch. In either case, there's no inevitable death event that we can hope will rescue us from the constraints of our enchained existence.

Please try to feel the hopelessness of this situation. Our IFs are still completely valid. We intuitively know that deep within we are the unlimited Spirit, which now metamorphoses through heavy constraints that are completely beyond our conscious control. We can't imagine away our body, we can't imagine our temperament differently. Not only that but we don't even understand what the nature of these constraints is. Our conscious experiences only confirm the fact that we're constrained but we don't see what the constraints are, we can't see them as some object and tweak them with a screwdriver.

Nothing external is coming to our rescue. Death is not coming. It's obvious that if we don't act, nothing will ever change. Our limitless Being will need to witness its constrained state eternally.

What do we do? Do we sit and wait for a miracle? Or we understand that Being already works within our perspective and can begin wiggling its way out from within outwards? In that case, how can this wiggling out begin? What is it that we presently ignore because we believe is irrelevant, which can become our only way out if death is not coming to our rescue?

PS: I'll mark this thought experiment with for future reference. The circle signifies the non-dual experience, which we can't circumvent by the duality of life and death. The goal of the thought experiment is to prevent us from using the 'other side' as a wildcard that we can tweak to fit our tastes and preferences. The solution to this fully non-dual situation has to be found here and now. If we can't conceive how we can spiritualize (uncreate) the physical body/world, not in theory but in the most real practical sense (without secretly expecting that death will save us from this duty), we haven't yet found the solution.

[Federica]

I think it's fair to say thank you to the triad Eugene, Lorenzo, Lou, because without Eugene's intellectual acrobatics, Lorenzo's exhilaration for the performance, and Lou shooting the pictures in delight, Ashvin wouldn't have written . (This visual cue was a double bond, since it's also a cockade, that is, the award )

I'm sure we can all sense the immediate and powerful truth in what Ashvin said: there will be immense regret. This is not only applicable to whomever secretly refuses agency and responsibility. Even after we have understood the importance of honoring the great chance of our life on Earth to approach consciousness of our true self, the regret is felt, in anticipation.

We intimately know that every time we let ourselves go with the flow, everytime we overestimate the relevance of our physical presence, body, environment, awarding it with centrality, everytime we act from within our impaired now-vision, desiccated and wrinkled by the dryness of sensory life, every time we think, feel and act as if everything around us were static and were to remain forever static, we already, almost imperceptibly, but still distinctly, regret it, because we are procrastinating the necessity to make our existence worthy of the humanity we have been gifted with, thereby missing concrete steps of progression, despite we perfectly know they are due.

If we try for a moment to expand our now-vision to encompass the time of our physical death, we can really pay a visit to the feeling of scorching regret. I'm sure we all sense how this is true. It's not a difficult exercise. We are speaking of a very graspable time span. It's enough to recollect and hold in consciousness the past decade of our life, and copy it into the future a quite small and figurable number of times. Then we only need to triangulate with the current pace of our work...

So thank you, Eugene, Lorenzo, Lou. And I am amazed how Cleric found an inimaginable way to offer you yet another chance to approach the necessary realization, and finally start working in the one fruitful direction of collective evolution... I wish and hope you will seize it.

[Stranger]

What do we do? Do we sit and wait for a miracle? Or we understand that Being already works within our perspective and can begin wiggling its way out from within outwards? In that case, how can this wiggling out begin? What is it that we presently ignore because we believe is irrelevant, which can become our only way out if death is not coming to our rescue?

The answer and the plan is quite simple and straightforward, as per my previous message:
- Any attempts to organize our life within the constraints of our current conditions without knowing our true nature are futile. Bound by dualistic perception and mentality, we are destined to wander in the labyrinth of our abstract dualistic conceptions and pursue artificially fabricated goals leading nowhere.
- What needs to happen first is the experiential recognition of our true nature of the Essential Being
- Then, when the knowing of the Being deepens as we practice, we discover its innate qualities - oneness, unconditional love, wisdom, compassion, acceptance
- We recognize that the world is the creation of Being inseparable from it, and we fully embrace it. We start living in our human conditions in harmony and coherent with the innate qualities of Being by executing our agency and responsibility aligned with these qualities. And then it does not matter where and in which form we live, either in human form, or in any other form after death. Whatever form we take, our life and actions will always be in harmony with the Being and its innate qualities.
- This does not mean that the harmony and full knowledge will happen overnight, there is still evolutionary path ahead of us. But if the Essential Being is known, this path will always be straightforward and harmonious without diversions and waste of time in futile endeavors.
- Each of us has an innate ability to know the Essential Being here and now. There is no reason to postpone this knowing until hundreds of future reincarnations. There is no reason to slowly evolve through a ladder of hierarchy to reach to the Essential Being. There is a hierarchy of beings rooted in Essential Being, but it is here to help us to realize our true nature and help us on our evolutionary path.

In short:
- The Telos of creation is to get to directly know the Essential Being, the Creator, and bring the creation to the state of harmony with the Essential Being.
- If the Essential Being is not known, the harmony is not achievable in principle.

[Stranger]

We intimately know that every time we let ourselves go with the flow, everytime we overestimate the relevance of our physical presence, body, environment, awarding it with centrality, everytime we act from within our impaired now-vision, desiccated and wrinkled by the dryness of sensory life, every time we think, feel and act as if everything around us were static and were to remain forever static, we already, almost imperceptibly, but still distinctly, regret it, because we are procrastinating the necessity to make our existence worthy of the humanity we have been gifted with, thereby missing concrete steps of progression, despite we perfectly know they are due.

I honestly don't understand how you and Ashvin interpreted my message as if I'm proposing to remain static, passive, uninvolved, bypassing the evolutionary path etc. Please see my answer to Cleric above.

[Federica]

We intimately know that every time we let ourselves go with the flow, everytime we overestimate the relevance of our physical presence, body, environment, awarding it with centrality, everytime we act from within our impaired now-vision, desiccated and wrinkled by the dryness of sensory life, every time we think, feel and act as if everything around us were static and were to remain forever static, we already, almost imperceptibly, but still distinctly, regret it, because we are procrastinating the necessity to make our existence worthy of the humanity we have been gifted with, thereby missing concrete steps of progression, despite we perfectly know they are due.

I honestly don't understand how you and Ashvin interpreted my message as if I'm proposing to remain static, passive, uninvolved, bypassing the evolutionary path etc. Please see my answer to Cleric above.

That was not referred to you. I was speaking of my own weaknesses, to those who understand the necessity of working towards awakening to our true self. I hope it's clear enough when reading the entire post. Regarding your situation, I don't think there is any further comment I could usefully add at this point.

[Stranger]

That was not referred to you. I was speaking of my own weaknesses, to those who understand the necessity of working towards awakening to our true self. I hope it's clear enough when reading the entire post. Regarding your situation, I don't think there is any further comment I could usefully add at this point.

Great, I'm glad we clarified all misunderstandings

[Cleric K]

The answer and the plan is quite simple and straightforward, as per my previous message:
- Any attempts to organize our life within the constraints of our current conditions without knowing our true nature are futile. Bound by dualistic perception and mentality, we are destined to wander in the labyrinth of our abstract dualistic conceptions and pursue artificially fabricated goals leading nowhere.
- What needs to happen first is the experiential recognition of our true nature of the Essential Being
- Then, when the knowing of the Being deepens as we practice, we discover its innate qualities - oneness, unconditional love, wisdom, compassion, acceptance
- We recognize that the world is the creation of Being inseparable from it, and we fully embrace it. We start living in our human conditions in harmony and coherent with the innate qualities of Being by executing our agency and responsibility aligned with these qualities. And then it does not matter where and in which form we live, either in human form, or in any other form after death. Whatever form we take, our life and actions will always be in harmony with the Being and its innate qualities.
- This does not mean that the harmony and full knowledge will happen overnight, there is still evolutionary path ahead of us. But if the Essential Being is known, this path will always be straightforward and harmonious without diversions and waste of time in futile endeavors.
- Each of us has an innate ability to know the Essential Being here and now. There is no reason to postpone this knowing until hundreds of future reincarnations. There is no reason to slowly evolve through a ladder of hierarchy to reach to the Essential Being. There is a hierarchy of beings rooted in Essential Being, but it is here to help us to realize our true nature and help us on our evolutionary path.

In short:
- The Telos of creation is to get to directly know the Essential Being, the Creator, and bring the creation to the state of harmony with the Essential Being.
- If the Essential Being is not known, the harmony is not achievable in principle.

OK, Eugene. Clearly, your points are so general that one can't complain about them In the same way, one can't say anything against the promises printed in a leaflet with a political program before the elections - they all sound splendid

But in both generalized spirituality and politics, things begin to grind down when we have to enter the concrete details. For example, in this experiment we need to understand the nature of the physical world because it is our duty to spiritualize it. If you feel like it, you may try to formulate your understanding of what the surrounding physical world is. What role do the beings of the hierarchies have in that? If we can't count on death to solve the mystery, how can we reach true understanding of our embodied state while still here? Who thinks the physical lattice within which our stream of becoming is constrained? What is this physical lattice? Of what nature? Quite clearly, it is not us who think it. Otherwise, we could think any body form we wanted. In what directions our meditation should go if our consciousness is to penetrate the true spiritual activity that manifests the physical world instead of only having an abstract intellectual theory about it (intellect which is already constrained by the physical lattice where the brain also belongs)?

These are just some of the countless questions that we have to face when we no longer take things for granted or believe that there's no need to seek the answers now because after death things will be obvious anyway.

[Stranger]

OK, Eugene. Clearly, your points are so general that one can't complain about them In the same way, one can't say anything against the promises printed in a leaflet with a political program before the elections - they all sound splendid

But in both generalized spirituality and politics, things begin to grind down when we have to enter the concrete details. For example, in this experiment we need to understand the nature of the physical world because it is our duty to spiritualize it. If you feel like it, you may try to formulate your understanding of what the surrounding physical world is. What role do the beings of the hierarchies have in that? If we can't count on death to solve the mystery, how can we reach true understanding of our embodied state while still here? Who thinks the physical lattice within which our stream of becoming is constrained? What is this physical lattice? Of what nature? Quite clearly, it is not us who think it. Otherwise, we could think any body form we wanted. In what directions our meditation should go if our consciousness is to penetrate the true spiritual activity that manifests the physical world instead of only having an abstract intellectual theory about it (intellect which is already constrained by the physical lattice where the brain also belongs)?

These are just some of the countless questions that we have to face when we no longer take things for granted or believe that there's no need to seek the answers now because after death things will be obvious anyway.

It's a matter of priorities. If our priority is to recognize our nature of Essential Being and know and absorb its innate qualities, and then move forward by actively living in human form in alignment with the Being and its innate qualities, then the rest will unfold naturally and motivate us to seek the answers to all the above questions by developing higher abilities of our cognition (wisdom, intuition, imagination etc), and to act in life according to these qualities of Being. The universe will gradually open to us as we progress with our spiritual practice and evolution, whether in this life or after death. But if we disregard or ignore our true nature, we will remain in a distorted dualistic state of mind and, correspondingly, seeking these answers will most likely give us distorted and limited knowledge in one way or another (which we can clearly see happening in modern science and philosophy).

[lorenzop]

To spiritualize the world means to perceive the world as Being, to perceive the world as self.
The Upanishads speak of evolution as non ending. A possible progression is detailed as: “I am That, thou art That, all this is nothing but That”
It begins with the essential realization of self as unbounded Being, and proceeds by increasingly recognizing the world as Being.
Upanishads are clear our duty is “I am That”, and in the world to perform our allotted duty.
Cleric I bet you have a different idea of what it means to spiritualize the world, and it has something to do with “thinking” and a hierarchy of beings. If so this is not in opposition to what I and Stranger are suggesting IF one places realization of the self as Being as priority . If you feel your allotted duty is to dance with saints and angels go for it. It’s a preference not a duty.