KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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AshvinP
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by AshvinP »

lorenzop wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:49 pm To spiritualize the world means to perceive the world as Being, to perceive the world as self.
The Upanishads speak of evolution as non ending. A possible progression is detailed as: “I am That, thou art That, all this is nothing but That”
It begins with the essential realization of self as unbounded Being, and proceeds by increasingly recognizing the world as Being.
Upanishads are clear our duty is “I am That”, and in the world to perform our allotted duty.
Cleric I bet you have a different idea of what it means to spiritualize the world, and it has something to do with “thinking” and a hierarchy of beings. If so this is not in opposition to what I and Stranger are suggesting IF one places realization of the self as Being as priority . If you feel your allotted duty is to dance with saints and angels go for it. It’s a preference not a duty.

Lorenzo,

Euegene (Stranger) disagrees with you (at least on paper). He has stated many times how higher cognitive development is necessary (not simply optional) to spiritualize the World, which necessarily entails 'dancing' with the hierarchical beings that are the invisible constraints of the World, i.e. the psychic structures, kingdoms, elements, bodies, etc. Eugene understands that the hierarchical beings are not floating bubbles of consciousness that we can either choose to interact with or not. And Eugene obviously doesn't think the living and moral laws of karma are irrelevant from the perspective of these beings or Being at large. It is when things get more concrete that his view and approach start to thin out towards yours.

For ex., is it wise, compassionate, and loving for him to indulge you in these comments and say "Yes that's true, as long as you recognize your Oneness with Being, that is working for you and is sufficient... no need to worry about all these other details of reality"? Is this in keeping with the essential qualities of Being? Or should he put some energetic effort into directing your attention to blind spots, misconceptions, unexamined sympathies and preferences, and concrete methods of gradually unveiling and transmuting these from within? Isn't this what Being has been doing for humanity throughout its entire historical progression of awakening to Being? It gives us the very willing, feeling, and cognitive forces by which we can gather concrete Self-knowledge and World-knowledge and use it to creatively shape the curvatures of manifest existence, not only for ourselves but for all Earthly beings.

Being doesn't simply disappear, reappear, post videos without commentary, do a bit of abstract philosophy, and indulge human beings in their misguided conceptions by staying silent or "agreeing" with them. It doesn't say "Not my problem, I don't need to lift a finger... things will become clear to all these humans after death". So when we really make things more concrete and transparent, we see the practical approach is quite the opposite of those essential qualities of Being that strive tirelessly to radiate Wisdom and Love into the souls of men, neglecting not even the tiniest of details. Being has cast its essence into dust particles to support the awakening of humanity, yet we don't want to sacrifice an ounce of our conveniences, preferences, or our time and effort to investigate its living structure. Remaining consumers of Oneness wisdom is not in keeping with the essential qualities of Being, which are active, creative, and sacrificial above all else.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Lou Gold
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Lou Gold »

Cleric and Stranger,

What's particularly interesting to me in my late-stage living/dying process is how 'natural' the things you mention seem to me. Seems like I'm doing my version of expanding awareness all the time. Is this because of my 30 years with Santo Daime? Might I have evolved as well or better with meditation or even just by virtue of striving to be a simple kind loving person? Or, is it just a function of dying being the best school I've attended in this incarnation?

I DUNNO!

Somehow, I'm reminded of the words of T. S. Eliot...

With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this
Calling

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always—
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
Stranger
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Stranger »

Just to add a few quotes from the Buddhists tradition to the discussion
"When your realization of the emptiness of all phenomena becomes as vast as the sky, your confidence in the law of causality of actions will grow proportionately, and you will become aware of the real significance of your conduct. In fact, relative truth is inseparable from absolute truth. The profound realization of the empty nature of all things has never led anyone to believe that positive actions do not create happiness and negative actions do not cause suffering."
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
"Somebody comes into the Zen Center with a lighted cigarette, walks up to the Buddha-statue, blows smoke in its face and drops ashes on its lap. You are standing there. What can you do?
This person has understood that nothing is holy or unholy. All things in the universe are one, and that one is himself. So everything is permitted. Ashes are Buddha; Buddha is ashes. The cigarette flicks. The ashes drop.
But his understanding is only partial. He has not yet understood that all things are just as they are. Holy is holy; unholy is unholy. Ashes are ashes; Buddha is Buddha. He is very attached to emptiness and to his own understanding, and he thinks that all words are useless. So whatever you say to him, however you try to teach him, he will hit you. If you try to teach by hitting him back, he will hit you even harder. (He is very strong.)
How can you cure his delusion?
Since you are a Zen student, you are also a Zen teacher. You are walking on the path of the Bodhisattva, whose vow is to save all beings from their suffering. This person is suffering from a mistaken view. You must help him understand the truth: that all things in the universe are just as they are.
How can you do this?"
Dropping Ashes on the Buddha: The Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
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Lou Gold
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Lou Gold »

Lou Gold wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:21 pm Cleric and Stranger,

What's particularly interesting to me in my late-stage living/dying process is how 'natural' the things you mention seem to me. Seems like I'm doing my version of expanding awareness all the time. Is this because of my 30 years with Santo Daime? Might I have evolved as well or better with meditation or even just by virtue of striving to be a simple kind loving person? Or, is it just a function of dying being the best school I've attended in this incarnation?

I DUNNO!

Somehow, I'm reminded of the words of T. S. Eliot...

With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this
Calling

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always—
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.
Just to add below is the image I completed last night and we had a 5.7 earthquake with no damage this morning. My inner feeling is as if a bunch of stuff shook loose and cleared for me and perhaps others. No big deal. I'm not claiming enlightenment. Just having fun and wanting to shout out "Glory Be!"

Image
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Lou Gold
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Musical Commentary on Not-Thinking

Post by Lou Gold »

This is fascinating. I hope you'll listen, contemplate and offer your views. PLEASE DO!

"Once you hear the world as music you can't unrealize it as music."

Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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Federica
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Federica »

Federica wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:59 pm I'm sure we can all sense the immediate and powerful truth in what Ashvin said: there will be immense regret. This is not only applicable to whomever secretly refuses agency and responsibility. Even after we have understood the importance of honoring the great chance of our life on Earth to approach consciousness of our true self, the regret is felt, in anticipation.

We intimately know that every time we let ourselves go with the flow, everytime we overestimate the relevance of our physical presence, body, environment, awarding it with centrality, everytime we act from within our impaired now-vision, desiccated and wrinkled by the dryness of sensory life, every time we think, feel and act as if everything around us were static and were to remain forever static, we already, almost imperceptibly, but still distinctly, regret it, because we are procrastinating the necessity to make our existence worthy of the humanity we have been gifted with, thereby missing concrete steps of progression, despite we perfectly know they are due.

If we try for a moment to expand our now-vision to encompass the time of our physical death, we can really pay a visit to the feeling of scorching regret. I'm sure we all sense how this is true. It's not a difficult exercise. We are speaking of a very graspable time span. It's enough to recollect and hold in consciousness the past decade of our life, and copy it into the future a quite small and figurable number of times. Then we only need to triangulate with the current pace of our work...

I want to add something positive about regret. I think that the more we strive to become present in our whole lifespan, extending our attention into the future all the way towards the time of physical death, and the more we try to prefigure the regret we could feel at passing if we move along our eventlines with overindulgence towards sensory pleasures and lazy approach to spiritual work, the more we become enabled to free our current experience from regret, when looking back at the past day before sleep, for example. Then - however failed the past day may appear - we can feel confident that we are steering our flow of becoming, within the collective fluid of becoming, along its best possible trajectory. We can also accept any drawbacks more gracefully.

Steiner wrote:We should never let a feeling of regret arise when we let the pictures of the day pass by us in reverse order. We shouldn't wish that we had been better, we should want to get better. We should think: I couldn't do otherwise back then, but now I can do it better and I will do it better in the future. With every experience we should ask: Did I do it right; couldn't I have done it better? We should look at ourselves as a stranger, as if we looked at and criticized ourselves from outside. It's very important to be able to remember little details in our daily life. A general who won a big battle has a picture of it before his eyes that evening. But he forgot how he put his boots on and took them off again. If we see ourselves walking down a street we should try to remember how the rows of house ran, which store windows we passed, the people we met, how they and we looked. Then we see ourself going into a store and we recall which sales lady came towards us, what she had on, how she spoke, moved, etc. We must make a big effort to recall such details, and this strengthens the soul's forces.

With practice, one can get to the point where the whole day's life runs through the soul, clear as wall paintings with all details in five minutes. This exercise is useless for someone who runs through the day superficially and just registers the events colorlessly. If a man walks a stretch and wants to bring this back he can stand still and try to remember what's behind him. Or he can turn around and look at where he's gone. If a period of time has passed we can initially only recall this with our memory and can't look back at the period of time that has elapsed. But this looking back that we only know in connection with space is also possible in time, and we learn to do it by trying to let the last day pass before us as clearly as possible in perceptible pictures. No event of the past is entirely gone, they're all there in the Akashic record. This is the only way one learns to read it. Initially one only sees things that concern oneself from this, and gradually also other things. That's why the evening retrospect is such an important, indispensable exercise.

And this is another translation of the same passage (from Steiner Wiki), with some relevant differences:

Steiner wrote:we must never let a feeling of regret arise. Regret is always selfish. Anyone who regrets wishes they had been better, they have a completely selfish wish. We should not want to have been better, but rather want to become better. We should learn from our daily life. If we have done something badly, we should not regret it, but rather think: I couldn't have done anything differently back then, but now I can do it better and want to do it better in the future. With every day's experience we should ask ourselves: Did I do it right, couldn't I have done it better? You will always find that you could have done it more correctly. One more thing is very important: that we learn to look at ourselves like a stranger, as if we were looking at and criticizing ourselves from the outside. In general, we should get as clear an idea as possible of daily life. It is much more important to be able to remember small details than important events. A general who has fought a major battle has the image of the battle before his eyes in the evening. This sticks itself in his soul. But he no longer remembers all the little details of the day, such as how he put on and took off his boots. And what's important is that we get as complete a picture of the day as possible. For example, we see ourselves walking across the street, trying to remember how the rows of houses ran, which shop windows we passed, which people we met, what they looked like, what we ourselves looked like; Then we see ourselves going into a store and remember which saleswoman came towards us, what she was wearing, how she spoke, moved, etc. We have to make a lot of effort with such small details, and this strengthens the strength of the soul.

You don't have to think that it will take you an hour. At first you will remember only a little and then gradually, with great effort, you will remember more and more. Ultimately, however, through practice you can get the whole day's life like murals clearly and with all the details in five minutes through your soul. But one must strive patiently. If you just quickly repeat the events of the day and just register them in a colorless way, this exercise is of no use at all.

What this exercise is intended to achieve is the following. If a person has made a long journey and at the end of the journey he would like to recognize once again the distance he has covered, he can do this in two ways. Firstly, he can stand with his back turned to the part of the path he has traveled and try to remember what is behind him. But he can also turn around and look over the part of the path [travelled]. If we have now passed a period of time, we can initially only remember it with our memory and cannot look back at the period of time that has passed. But this looking back, which we only know from space, is also possible in time, and we learn it by trying to let the past day pass before us as clearly and visually as possible. No event of the past is completely gone, they are all still there. They are there in what we call the Akashic Records. You can only learn to read them this way. At first you only recognize what concerns you, and gradually other things too. That's why evening review is such an important, essential exercise.

So the difference between not doing the reverse review exercise and doing it, is the same difference between trying to remember the physical path behind us, if we are taking a stroll, and turning around and looking at it.
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
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AshvinP
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by AshvinP »

I'm sorry, Lou, but I came across this humorous comparison from Owen Barfield and want to share it : )

***

But let me give a brief example of what I mean by the gap. There are among us those who by their own mental effort have arrived at a position which is quite in harmony with one or more of the general principles of Spiritual Science. How welcome they are! Among them is one, for example, whose well documented suggestions I for one find deeply interesting. In his book A New Science of Life (1981) Rupert Sheldrake, a fellow of the Royal Society, posits the existence of what he names the “Morphogenetic Field,” a realm of immaterial forces, which can produce material, biological phenomena; and which may also, he more tentatively hazards, be effective in human psychology. A startlingly original theory and one which may well have a beneficial influence on the rigidities of the scientific establishment. An important symptom, if not an important event. But now compare his book with the wealth of detail about the morphogenetic field (only there it is called “the etheric”) in the literature of Spiritual Science: the four ethers, and their relation both to the elements and to the human psyche, the human etheric body, the changes in the etheric earth in the course of the year, etc., etc., and with the use and application of that detailed knowledge in therapy, education, agriculture and elsewhere. If you want an analogy, think of the discovery of electricity. It is the difference between early experiments with a newly discovered phenomenon called “electricity” – rubbing amber on your sleeve and finding it attracts gossamer; flying a kite in a thunderstorm to see what happens, and so on – the difference between that and the blueprint for a nest of whirring dynamos in some 20th century power station that lights a whole city and energizes its transport.

(To be fair, Barfield throws himself into the comparison too)

Or I could offer an example nearer home. One of our seminars here is devoted to the contribution of a certain Owen Barfield. Look into his work and see what is the most he can claim to have done. With the help of laborious arguments, allusions to the history of language, appeals to experience in one realm and another and so forth he has (let us say, putting it at its highest) established the fact that, yes, there really must be such a thing as an evolution of consciousness. And now turn, not to any arguments for, but to the use of the evolution of consciousness as we find it in Steiner. The mere fact itself is hornbook stuff. It is the airstrip from which the flight, from which the whole squadron, takes off; essential (because the clutter of centuries has to be removed to make the ground smooth enough), but it is the flight and where it will take us that matter.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
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Lou Gold
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Re: KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

Post by Lou Gold »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Feb 29, 2024 1:49 am I'm sorry, Lou, but I came across this humorous comparison from Owen Barfield and want to share it : )

***

But let me give a brief example of what I mean by the gap. There are among us those who by their own mental effort have arrived at a position which is quite in harmony with one or more of the general principles of Spiritual Science. How welcome they are! Among them is one, for example, whose well documented suggestions I for one find deeply interesting. In his book A New Science of Life (1981) Rupert Sheldrake, a fellow of the Royal Society, posits the existence of what he names the “Morphogenetic Field,” a realm of immaterial forces, which can produce material, biological phenomena; and which may also, he more tentatively hazards, be effective in human psychology. A startlingly original theory and one which may well have a beneficial influence on the rigidities of the scientific establishment. An important symptom, if not an important event. But now compare his book with the wealth of detail about the morphogenetic field (only there it is called “the etheric”) in the literature of Spiritual Science: the four ethers, and their relation both to the elements and to the human psyche, the human etheric body, the changes in the etheric earth in the course of the year, etc., etc., and with the use and application of that detailed knowledge in therapy, education, agriculture and elsewhere. If you want an analogy, think of the discovery of electricity. It is the difference between early experiments with a newly discovered phenomenon called “electricity” – rubbing amber on your sleeve and finding it attracts gossamer; flying a kite in a thunderstorm to see what happens, and so on – the difference between that and the blueprint for a nest of whirring dynamos in some 20th century power station that lights a whole city and energizes its transport.

(To be fair, Barfield throws himself into the comparison too)

Or I could offer an example nearer home. One of our seminars here is devoted to the contribution of a certain Owen Barfield. Look into his work and see what is the most he can claim to have done. With the help of laborious arguments, allusions to the history of language, appeals to experience in one realm and another and so forth he has (let us say, putting it at its highest) established the fact that, yes, there really must be such a thing as an evolution of consciousness. And now turn, not to any arguments for, but to the use of the evolution of consciousness as we find it in Steiner. The mere fact itself is hornbook stuff. It is the airstrip from which the flight, from which the whole squadron, takes off; essential (because the clutter of centuries has to be removed to make the ground smooth enough), but it is the flight and where it will take us that matter.
Thanks Ashvin. That was fun. Interestingly, although I've not been tuning in much, something pushed or pulled toward the forum tonight. Surely, there are bigger forces at work.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
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