KASTRUP AND SHELDRAKE ON THE COSMIC MIND

[Stranger]

OK, Eugene, you like to call the reality of Being "stream of ATW" - fine. If you feel more secure speaking of your first-person existence in third-person - that's OK. But when this is taken as an ideal, it is not without repercussions. When you get used to this mode of cognition, everything that defines and constrains your individual stream will be sought in such a third-person way. For example, there's no denying that you have temperament, character, and so on. After all, you have certain preferences. You prefer guitar over some other instrument. You prefer some spiritual traditions over others and so on. Even if you consider yourself ego-less, something still manifests these personalized preferences. You certainly realize that this cannot be some innate quality of pure consciousness. It's only some limited manifestation of the limitless potential of existence. There's something that makes some things more sympathetic to Eugene and others less so. As an engineer, you may say that there's something in the World state that 'stores' this fact. I believe you could say that this is a feature of the riverbed of the ATW stream. But with your approach, the only way you can expect to know something of these constraints is by seeing them as third-person objects, as some phenomena within your 'pure consciousness'. This is already problematic because you very well know that no image in your consciousness can be considered to be the real thing. This opens the question: if you somehow see an image of the riverbed of your character, temperament, interests, preferences, etc. and this image cannot be the reality, then what is the reality of this riverbed and how can it be known in its true nature?

Well, calling it both "first-person" or "third-person" perspective are really misnomers. It's a direct conscious presence and experience here and now without a reference point of any particular "perspective". And all of it is real - all individual qualities and preferences, the sense of self (whether or not anything is still left of it), all the flow of sensory phenomena, ideas, imaginations. They all appear in the limitless space of ATW, not randomly as bubbles, but as a result of the active agency of ATW. They all exist, but not in a way we usually think in our dualistic mode of perception as if they represent separate subjects and objects, but in a different way - as a flow of forms of AWT inseparable from AWT. And in the latter sense everything exists and real - me and you and everyone else and the rest of the universe. But when seen in this "direct presence" way, the individual barriers and limitations imposed by dualistic perception and thinking will inevitably fall away and the innate qualities of AWT (such as love, wisdom, compassion) will manifest naturally.

There is a famous saying by Dogen (the founder of Japanese Zen Buddhism):

“Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.”
― Dōgen

[lorenzop]

This opens the question: if you somehow see an image of the riverbed of your character, temperament, interests, preferences, etc. and this image cannot be the reality, then what is the reality of this riverbed and how can it be known in its true nature?

The landscape of one’s character, inclinations, preferences and etc. fall into the category of ‘the world’. But it’s very natural and honest, there is equal gratitude for gifts like forests, family, as well as the gift of one’s likes and dislikes. This landscape is not our true nature, these are not of a spiritual heritage - these are in the realm of what is experienced, they can and will come and go, are subject to modification.
Being is ever the same, not subject to modification.

[Stranger]

The landscape of one’s character, inclinations, preferences and etc. fall into the category of ‘the world’. But it’s very natural and honest, there is equal gratitude for gifts like forests, family, as well as the gift of one’s likes and dislikes. This landscape is not our true nature, these are not of a spiritual heritage - these are in the realm of what is experienced, they can and will come and go, are subject to modification.
Being is ever the same, not subject to modification.

That's right, the presence-awareness never changes, it's timeless, but its content of forms (the world) is ever-changing, even though it's always present here and now. What a mystery!

[Güney27]

This opens the question: if you somehow see an image of the riverbed of your character, temperament, interests, preferences, etc. and this image cannot be the reality, then what is the reality of this riverbed and how can it be known in its true nature?

The landscape of one’s character, inclinations, preferences and etc. fall into the category of ‘the world’. But it’s very natural and honest, there is equal gratitude for gifts like forests, family, as well as the gift of one’s likes and dislikes. This landscape is not our true nature, these are not of a spiritual heritage - these are in the realm of what is experienced, they can and will come and go, are subject to modification.
Being is ever the same, not subject to modification.

These things structure your opinions, sympathies and antipathies...... from behind your conscious experience, and make you think and act like you do.
It is the riverbed trough which your being flows.
Every statement you make is formed trough this riverbed.

Do you think that consciousness is like a bottle in which the metamorphosing contents are inside the bottle like water (its not a good metaphor but i dont got a better one to express this question) ?

[ScottRoberts]

OK, so you are really talking about an individuated agency here (which I never denied), but you are associating it with your intuitive sense of self. What I'm trying to say here is that the agency is not a "subject" but rather it's an "action" (as much as we can describe it with the limitation of language), so labeling it as "personal I" is redundant/unnecessary in principle. I know that you are not going to agree with this, but at least we clarified enough each other's positions (I hope...).

Without something (entity, individual, identity, object, patient -- many possible words here) to act upon, there is no action, only chaos. Which is why for there to be action, there must also be this something, which, in turn, can be an agent. Action and acted upon are a polarity, like permanence and change, or being and becoming. To say there is just action, and no agent, is falling off the Middle Way. This something is more than "individuated". It is an individual.

[lorenzop]

This opens the question: if you somehow see an image of the riverbed of your character, temperament, interests, preferences, etc. and this image cannot be the reality, then what is the reality of this riverbed and how can it be known in its true nature?

The landscape of one’s character, inclinations, preferences and etc. fall into the category of ‘the world’. But it’s very natural and honest, there is equal gratitude for gifts like forests, family, as well as the gift of one’s likes and dislikes. This landscape is not our true nature, these are not of a spiritual heritage - these are in the realm of what is experienced, they can and will come and go, are subject to modification.
Being is ever the same, not subject to modification.

These things structure your opinions, sympathies and antipathies...... from behind your conscious experience, and make you think and act like you do.
It is the riverbed trough which your being flows.
Every statement you make is formed trough this riverbed.

Do you think that consciousness is like a bottle in which the metamorphosing contents are inside the bottle like water (its not a good metaphor but i dont got a better one to express this question) ?

In your metaphor the riverbed/bottle make up the separate self. The separate self is not to be pushed away or banished. It can not be dropped as the world can not be dropped . What can be done is no longer identify with separate self, identity as Being or Pure Consciousness.

[Lou Gold]

OK, so you are really talking about an individuated agency here (which I never denied), but you are associating it with your intuitive sense of self. What I'm trying to say here is that the agency is not a "subject" but rather it's an "action" (as much as we can describe it with the limitation of language), so labeling it as "personal I" is redundant/unnecessary in principle. I know that you are not going to agree with this, but at least we clarified enough each other's positions (I hope...).

Without something (entity, individual, identity, object, patient -- many possible words here) to act upon, there is no action, only chaos. Which is why for there to be action, there must also be this something, which, in turn, can be an agent. Action and acted upon are a polarity, like permanence and change, or being and becoming. To say there is just action, and no agent, is falling off the Middle Way. This something is more than "individuated". It is an individual.

Scott,

I believe the focus would be on the still point of the fulcrum, which sits at the center of the ups-and-downs and wild swings. The assertion is that this still-point of no action in the Middle Way offers maximal awareness. But I'm not a meditator, just sort of intuitively grok stuff... sometimes!

[Stranger]

Without something (entity, individual, identity, object, patient -- many possible words here) to act upon, there is no action, only chaos. Which is why for there to be action, there must also be this something, which, in turn, can be an agent. Action and acted upon are a polarity, like permanence and change, or being and becoming. To say there is just action, and no agent, is falling off the Middle Way. This something is more than "individuated". It is an individual.

Well, as per my above answer to Cleric, the "agent" as a form (idea) does exist as part of the world of forms and ideas. As you rightly said, it's not permanent, it did not exist before the individual birth, it may not exist after death, and it may even cease existing during life if that happens to happen. Perfectly coherent actions are still possible beyond the polarity of actor-acting-acted, but you don't have to believe it.

[AshvinP]

As I said, nobody denies agency and responsibility here, it's just that agency does not need the "agent" to be able to act.

I wish that were true, Eugene, but the pattern of comments shows otherwise. This is why you feel the Earthly kingdoms cannot evolve to more spiritual stages through human spiritual activity, why reincarnation is optional for those who conceive themselves as enlightened, why there are many multi-dimensional hierarchies of Divine intents that we can work with or not, why the concrete spiritual curvatures that shape your preferences, temperament, character, etc. cannot be known from their first-person perspective, and many similar things. It conveniently allows you to disclaim all responsibility for intimately knowing and shaping those curvatures while you are still alive.

Again, it is a secret denial of agency and responsibility because it is not outwardly spoken, but inwardly revealed through the conceptual patterns that emerge over many iterations of the same discussions on this forum. It all comes from secretly reserving for oneself an unconditioned, all-encompassing Divine perspective from which everything else is 'exoteric', 'dualistic', 'mundane', 'lower stages', and so forth. Then one feels 'safe' that the grounds of existence have been reached and all 'lower' cognitive work can be done at one's pleasure, in whatever way feels most comfortable. That conveniently allows one to escape all creative responsibility for the most proximate curvatures of destiny, i.e. those shaping our thought-life (such as abstract 3rd-person metaphysical habits of thinking) and our deeper soul-life.  It is why you completely avoided Cleric's question in the last post.

As we have discussed before, it will come as a great shock to souls that cross the threshold of death when they awaken to the fact that, by abstracting out to 'pure ATW' in their smeared-out thinking, they missed the entire spiritual Cosmos and the Earthly opportunities to become more creatively involved in the higher-order curvatures after death. There will be immense regret that the greatest Cosmic secrets were embedded right within what the "I" was doing when it disclaimed its own reality, and this will provide the basis for reapproaching the same opportunities for awakening in the next incarnation. These things are all known, Eugene. And it is also known the conceptual pattern in response to these facts will be to reflexively accuse of tyranny and elitism and whatever else comes forth when dispassionate logical reasoning through the ideas ceases. Nevertheless, these are the facts revealed by spiritual perception and accessible to all healthy reasoning that is but a more constrained form of that spiritual perception. There is only 'dualistic perception' so long as the reasoning "I" remains unaware of its intuitive movements, either by absolutizing the personal ego or inflating it to Cosmic scale and pretending it no longer exists.

[Stranger]

As I said, nobody denies agency and responsibility here, it's just that agency does not need the "agent" to be able to act.

I wish that were true, Eugene, but the pattern of comments shows otherwise. This is why you feel the Earthly kingdoms cannot evolve to more spiritual stages through human spiritual activity, why reincarnation is optional for those who conceive themselves as enlightened, why there are many multi-dimensional hierarchies of Divine intents that we can work with or not, why the concrete spiritual curvatures that shape your preferences, temperament, character, etc. cannot be known from their first-person perspective, and many similar things. It conveniently allows you to disclaim all responsibility for intimately knowing and shaping those curvatures while you are still alive.

Again, it is a secret denial of agency and responsibility because it is not outwardly spoken, but inwardly revealed through the conceptual patterns that emerge over many iterations of the same discussions on this forum. It all comes from secretly reserving for oneself an unconditioned, all-encompassing Divine perspective from which everything else is 'exoteric', 'dualistic', 'mundane', 'lower stages', and so forth. Then one feels 'safe' that the grounds of existence have been reached and all 'lower' cognitive work can be done at one's pleasure, in whatever way feels most comfortable. That conveniently allows one to escape all creative responsibility for the most proximate curvatures of destiny, i.e. those shaping our thought-life (such as abstract 3rd-person metaphysical habits of thinking) and our deeper soul-life.  It is why you completely avoided Cleric's question in the last post.

As we have discussed before, it will come as a great shock to souls that cross the threshold of death when they awaken to the fact that, by abstracting out to 'pure ATW' in their smeared-out thinking, they missed the entire spiritual Cosmos and the Earthly opportunities to become more creatively involved in the higher-order curvatures after death. There will be immense regret that the greatest Cosmic secrets were embedded right within what the "I" was doing when it disclaimed its own reality, and this will provide the basis for reapproaching the same opportunities for awakening in the next incarnation. These things are all known, Eugene. And it is also known the conceptual pattern in response to these facts will be to reflexively accuse of tyranny and elitism and whatever else comes forth when dispassionate logical reasoning through the ideas ceases. Nevertheless, these are the facts revealed by spiritual perception and accessible to all healthy reasoning that is but a more constrained form of that spiritual perception. There is only 'dualistic perception' so long as the reasoning "I" remains unaware of its intuitive movements, either by absolutizing the personal ego or inflating it to Cosmic scale and pretending it no longer exists.

Perfect agency and responsibility can only be accomplished when the world of duality is transcended by the direct knowledge of the One which is inseparable from the World it creates. In this case the World is not rejected, but fully embraced as the expression of the One and can be brought to the harmony with the One. The World can come to peace and order only when its structures and its knowledge are coherent with the One that creates it. When the world and its beings do not know the One, their perception of the world is inevitably dualistic and fragmented, and all their attempts to build the structures of perfect order are futile, because it will always be subject to the pendulum of dualities, of good and bad, of me and other,no matter how they organize their hierarchies.

"Since the oblivion came into existence because the Father was not known, then if the Father comes to be known, oblivion will not exist from that moment on. Since the deficiency came into existence because the Father was not known, then if the Father comes to be known, deficiency will not exist from that moment on. It is with Unity that each one will attain himself; within knowledge (gnosis) he will purify himself from multiplicity into Unity, consuming matter within himself like fire, and darkness by light, death by life"
The Gospel of Truth

The Prayer of Kuntuzangpo, The Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra

Ho! Everything - appearance and existence, samsara and nirvana, has a
single ground, yet two paths and two fruitions, and magically displays as
awareness or unawareness.

Through Kuntuzangpo's prayer, may all beings become Buddhas, completely
perfected in the abode of the dharmadhatu. The ground of all is
uncompounded, and the self-arising great expanse, beyond expression, has
neither the name samsara nor nirvana. Realizing just this you are a Buddha;
not realizing this you are a being wandering in samsara.

I pray that all you beings of the three realms may realize the true
meaning of the inexpressible ground.

I, Kuntuzangpo, have realized the truth of this ground, free from cause
and condition, which is just this self-arising awareness. It is unstained by
outer expression and inner thought, affirmation or denial and is not defiled
by the darkness of unmindfulness. Thus this self-manifesting display is free
from defects.

I, Kuntuzangpo, am the original Buddha of all, and through this prayer
of mine, may all you beings who wander in the three realms of samsara
realize this self-arising awareness, and may your great wisdom spontaneously
increase.

My emanations will continuously manifest in billions of unimaginable
ways, appearing in forms to help you beings who can be trained. From the
beginning you beings are deluded because you do not recognize the awareness
of the ground.

Through my prayer, may all you beings recognize your intrinsic
awareness! Innate unawareness means unmindfulness and distraction. Imputing
unawareness means dualistic thoughts towards self and others. Both kinds of
unawareness are the basis for the delusion of all beings.
Through Kuntuzangpo's prayer, may all you beings wandering in samsara
clear away the dark fog of unmindfulness, clear away the clinging thoughts
of duality!

May you recognize your own intrinsic awareness! Dualistic thoughts
create doubt, from subtle attachment to this dualistic turn of mind
dualistic tendencies become stronger and thicker. Food, wealth, clothes,
home and friends, the five objects of the senses and your beloved family -
all these things cause torment by creating longing and desire. These are all
worldly delusions; the activities of grasping and clinging are endless.

All you beings of the three realms are actually identical to Buddhas,
the ground of all. But your misunderstanding of the ground causes you to go
astray, so you act without aim.

Through Kuntuzangpo's prayer may all you beings without exception attain
enlightenment in the state of dharmadhatu.