Pictorial Thinking

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5481
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by AshvinP »

Federica wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:40 pm This one looks very nicely made. I wonder who drew it :)

Not me, I assure you! I believe that I googled "Waldorf drawing 12 senses" for that one :)
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
User avatar
Güney27
Posts: 245
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:56 am
Contact:

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by Güney27 »

I noticed that I live in my normal 'mode' of consciousness, and can enter into a more 'phenomenological' mode.
But I only get in there if I think or write down what has been shared a thousand times in this forum by Cleric and Ashvin.
I must be active in concentrating that intuition in thoughts, to get in the phenomenological experience.

My question is how can I get to the point in which I live in this mode?
Is there any advice you can give?
~Only true love can heal broken hearts~
User avatar
Federica
Posts: 1742
Joined: Sat May 14, 2022 2:30 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by Federica »

Güney27 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:49 pm I noticed that I live in my normal 'mode' of consciousness, and can enter into a more 'phenomenological' mode.
But I only get in there if I think or write down what has been shared a thousand times in this forum by Cleric and Ashvin.
I must be active in concentrating that intuition in thoughts, to get in the phenomenological experience.

My question is how can I get to the point in which I live in this mode?
Is there any advice you can give?

Güney,

These are 2 recent posts by Cleric where your question is directly addressed:

viewtopic.php?p=24265#p24265

viewtopic.php?p=24270#p24270
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
User avatar
Lou Gold
Posts: 2025
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:18 pm

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by Lou Gold »

Gurney,

I would like to affirm the suggestions of Cleric from my impressions outside of the path of Spiritual Science. Relationships must be maintained (ex: one must continue to water the plants). Reading the stories of the great Sages, I note when they aren't engaged in something like a dialogue with followers, they are generally praying or reciting the name of their Deity. Practicing the habit firms it and extends its longevity.
Be calm - Be clear - See the faults - See the suffering - Give your love
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5481
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:49 pm I noticed that I live in my normal 'mode' of consciousness, and can enter into a more 'phenomenological' mode.
But I only get in there if I think or write down what has been shared a thousand times in this forum by Cleric and Ashvin.
I must be active in concentrating that intuition in thoughts, to get in the phenomenological experience.

My question is how can I get to the point in which I live in this mode?
Is there any advice you can give?

Guney,

What you are expressing is completely natural on the inner path and is a good sign to begin with - simply being able to distinguish between when we are in normal mode or 'phenomenological mode' means we have already started delaminating the inner life. How to strengthen the latter and make it more 'second nature' is what we have discussed in terms of consistent study-meditate and concentration exercises, as well as other secondary exercises that help our "I" remain more present and attentive within the flow of experience. For example, I have read over Cleric's latest essays many times now, more than 10. I don't think we should feel like we have understood it all in its proper depth the first few times and can move on to something else, rather we should feel there is an endless depth to explore and trust that new intuitive insights will precipitate as we continually move our imagination through the supersensible territory symbolized by the text and illustrations. Our thinking organism will then gradually adapt itself more to these active supersensible movements and it will be easier to engage without as much external stimulation over time (such as the essays) - we will attain a greater depth of inner experience so that we can transition into this mode through our own inner effort.

Here is also an interesting lecture passage from Steiner to contemplate:

Steiner, GA 212, L2 wrote:Whoever earnestly endeavors to ascend to spiritual knowledge will have vivid experiences of all I have indicated. Whatever one has accumulated in life by way of written notes can, like any possession, be comfortably taken home. And because in present day life comfort is much preferred to inner experiences of disquiet, all knowledge tends to be given a form that allows it to be written down and comfortably taken home. It is said, however, that anthroposophical lectures do not transcribe well, so one actually does not get much from what is written down about them and comfortably taken home.

But, you see, that is only a reflection of the experience of higher knowledge. When a university student today prepares for an examination he is really happy when he manages to store up some facts in his head. And when after three or four weeks the time comes for the examination he hopes to be able to pour it all out unchanged just as he crammed it in. One cannot set about acquiring higher knowledge in that way. Those who really develop higher knowledge are faced with spiritual perceptions that have a life of their own. Higher knowledge is perpetually alive. It will not permit itself to be so conveniently stored in notebooks as do the rigid concepts which today are kept as scientific records of the external world. These, though radically expressed, are real inner facts.

Take the case of someone who has attained supersensible cognition to a fairly high degree. Let us say he has at present certain spiritual perceptions; he can attain those experiences again later by means I have often described. He may experience them after three or four years; they have meanwhile gone through a life of their own. If he once more builds them up they burden his soul with uncertainty. One gradually learns that this is nothing exceptional. Supersensible knowledge in general, fills one with uncertainty when it develops further — when, as it were, it grows old. One has to attain certainty about it all over again. One experiences uncertainty already the following day even about the loftiest spiritual perceptions and must struggle to attain the knowledge once more. Only lower kinds of perceptions cease to be alive, and they become specters which reappear unchanged. The one who has them feels satisfied that he has attained some insight into a higher world. He grabs a notebook to make sure the experience is preserved. He would in fact like to have a kind of soul-notebook for the purpose.

Genuine spiritual perceptions act differently — they are living entities and must continually be created anew. One must go through the process repeatedly for already the following day uncertainty arises, especially about the loftiest experiences, and one must win certainty all over again. One must relate to spiritual knowledge as one relates in the physical world to what is reality and not image. A real process in the physical world is the need to eat: not many of you would refrain from eating today because you had a good meal a week ago. You would not say that the meal of a week ago is still in you nourishing you, so that there is no need to eat today. By contrast a soul content arrived at via the body remains and can be recalled unchanged in many respects. That is not the case with a spiritual soul content; this does not just fade; its very certainty is repeatedly shaken and must be regained ever again.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by Cleric K »

Güney27 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:49 pm I noticed that I live in my normal 'mode' of consciousness, and can enter into a more 'phenomenological' mode.
But I only get in there if I think or write down what has been shared a thousand times in this forum by Cleric and Ashvin.
I must be active in concentrating that intuition in thoughts, to get in the phenomenological experience.

My question is how can I get to the point in which I live in this mode?
Is there any advice you can give?
Guney, remember when we said that we can have a much more powerful experience when we focus on the supersensible experience that is close at hand, instead of pushing ourselves toward the experience that we don't even know how to conceive. Such a proximate supersensible experience is our thinking, for example.

In the same way, we should be clear about what we expect when we consider living in a phenomenological mode. We may be pushing ourselves towards something that is not practical at all.

Just like thinking, we can start with something much simpler which at first sight doesn't seem 'phenomenological' at all. Take something completely trivial, like folding your laundry. It is precisely in these most trivial activities, which are not performed under some pressure or urgency, that we have a great field for progress. And this progress consists of nothing special - it's simply trying to be completely present in every move we make. We should be concentrated in our activity. Every move should be thought. As a comparison, when we speak consciously, our thinking voice penetrates the vocal organ. Our thoughts and bodily will are tightly fitting, like hand and glove. In our other activities, the thinking voice is largely decoupled from our hand movements, just like we often can speak physically while doing something else with our hands. We can try to avoid this decoupling for a while and shape our thinking force into the hand movements that reach into the physical. It may seem strange that we should think hand movements but remember what has been said before - we can indeed think with hands, people born deaf have no audible inner voice but think in hand movements - in sign language. If we think about this fact we'll see that it is indeed possible to meaningfully think even trivial movements as folding clothes. All the energy that is normally diverted through the inner thinking voice should be streamed into the hands. One of the first meaningful nudges that we may experience in this way is the recognition of all those elemental 'macros' through which we perform everything.

The essential thing is that in our daily life we shouldn't be trying to do something else. If we think that our daily activities are too ordinary to be 'phenomenological', we're looking for something else that we may never find. When we fold our laundry, by becoming more concentrated and present in the activity, it probably won't become 'Cosmic'. In fact, it may feel even more physical. Many 'idealists' may resist such experiences because they imagine that they become 'materialistic' in this way. They would much rather dream the Earthly spectrum away and imagine something more volatile in its place. It is assumed that dipping our hands into the physical spectrum is an illusion. Yet it is precisely in the reality of physicality, when it is experienced in full attention, that we can experience the phenomenological mode in its proper depth. When we enter into such experiences we can't help but be amazed, as if we discover the physical world for the first time. And we're further amazed by the courage of the Spirit to drive itself into such a fantastic mode of existence.
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by Cleric K »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:45 pm Here is also an interesting lecture passage from Steiner to contemplate:
Today's thought of the day also speaks of this:
As the physical eye must be acquired in the pre-earthly life, so must the eye, for the perception of the spiritual world, be acquired here on earth through spiritual science, active spiritual knowledge. I do not mean through clairvoyance — that is an individual affair — but through the understanding, with healthy intelligence, of what is discovered by clairvoyant research. It is simply untrue to say that one must see into the spiritual world oneself in order to believe what the clairvoyants see. It is not so. […]

We need only be prepared to think the thing out, and feel it through and through. It is this recognition by healthy human understanding, of what is given out of the spiritual world — it is not the clairvoyance, but the activity of knowledge — which provides us with spiritual eyes after death. The clairvoyant has to acquire this spiritual eye just the same as other men. For what we gain by Imaginative Cognition, what we perceive in seership, falls away and vanishes after a few days. It only does not do so if we bring it down to the standpoint of ordinary understanding, and in that case we are obliged to understand it in the very same way in which it is understood by those to whom we communicate it.

In effect, clairvoyance as such is not the essential task of man on earth. Clairvoyance must only be there in order that the supersensible truths may be found. But the task of man on earth is to understand the supersensible truths with ordinary, healthy human understanding.
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5481
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by AshvinP »

Güney27 wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:49 pm I noticed that I live in my normal 'mode' of consciousness, and can enter into a more 'phenomenological' mode.
But I only get in there if I think or write down what has been shared a thousand times in this forum by Cleric and Ashvin.
I must be active in concentrating that intuition in thoughts, to get in the phenomenological experience.

My question is how can I get to the point in which I live in this mode?
Is there any advice you can give?

Also, what Cleric wrote reminded me of something I have been experimenting with recently, which others may also find useful. When I take a shower in the morning, I try to remain present in the flow of experience and discern how the sensory constellation transforms in relation to my activity. First I set the intention to remain present and avoid the mind wandering to whatever is coming up for the day, spiritual topics, and what not. When the mind wanders to such topics, as it often does, I calmy notice it and reset the intention to remain present. Then I observe how the sensations subtly transform as I rotate my body in various directions - the texture of the water feels slightly different on different parts, the sound of the water slightly changes, the warmth of the water feels a bit different, and so on. One can even swirl some water in the mouth and notice the taste and texture sensations. All of these subtle transformations unfold in response to my inner activity. We can try to sense how the meaning of these transformations are being followed by our thinking movements.

For whatever reason, I find this experiment to be a great start to the day with a more phenomenological orientation. Perhaps it helps that the shower is already associated with cleansing the inner space to some extent, giving more real estate for the "I" to incarnate and to be present and concentrated.
"Most people would sooner regard themselves as a piece of lava in the moon than as an 'I'"
User avatar
Federica
Posts: 1742
Joined: Sat May 14, 2022 2:30 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by Federica »

Cleric K wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:15 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:45 pm Here is also an interesting lecture passage from Steiner to contemplate:
Today's thought of the day also speaks of this:
As the physical eye must be acquired in the pre-earthly life, so must the eye, for the perception of the spiritual world, be acquired here on earth through spiritual science, active spiritual knowledge. I do not mean through clairvoyance — that is an individual affair — but through the understanding, with healthy intelligence, of what is discovered by clairvoyant research. It is simply untrue to say that one must see into the spiritual world oneself in order to believe what the clairvoyants see. It is not so. […]

We need only be prepared to think the thing out, and feel it through and through. It is this recognition by healthy human understanding, of what is given out of the spiritual world — it is not the clairvoyance, but the activity of knowledge — which provides us with spiritual eyes after death. The clairvoyant has to acquire this spiritual eye just the same as other men. For what we gain by Imaginative Cognition, what we perceive in seership, falls away and vanishes after a few days. It only does not do so if we bring it down to the standpoint of ordinary understanding, and in that case we are obliged to understand it in the very same way in which it is understood by those to whom we communicate it.

In effect, clairvoyance as such is not the essential task of man on earth. Clairvoyance must only be there in order that the supersensible truths may be found. But the task of man on earth is to understand the supersensible truths with ordinary, healthy human understanding.

What is meant by "ordinary, healthy human understanding" may be confusing. It reminds me of a recent discussion about "practical thinking", what Steiner meant by it. Here again, ordinary human understanding could be interpreted as the intellect, but it's not so, right? Maybe it could be said that one can practice concentration, phenomenology, study-meditation, and so realize the shape of one's soul nature and entanglements, learn how to exist consciously independent of the physical body, meet the Guardian, and be largely non clairvoyant in the sense Steiner uses the word here. Is this correct?
In this epoch we have to be fighters for the spirit: man must realise what his powers can give way to, unless they are kept constantly under control for the conquest of the spiritual world. In this fifth epoch, man is entitled to his freedom to the highest degree! He has to go through that.
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Pictorial Thinking

Post by Cleric K »

Federica wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:39 pm What is meant by "ordinary, healthy human understanding" may be confusing. It reminds me of a recent discussion about "practical thinking", what Steiner meant by it. Here again, ordinary human understanding could be interpreted as the intellect, but it's not so, right? Maybe it could be said that one can practice concentration, phenomenology, study-meditation, and so realize the shape of one's soul nature and entanglements, learn how to exist consciously independent of the physical body, meet the Guardian, and be largely non clairvoyant in the sense Steiner uses the word here. Is this correct?
Yes, it all boils down to not confusing "ordinary, healthy human understanding" with "abstract mental modeling". For example, when we speak of Saturn warmth, it would be abstract if we think "This warmth is something that can only be known by clairvoyant consciousness. Until then, I'll use an abstract placeholder in my mind, something that I'll expect to find the corresponding reality for, only in the future." This is not what "ordinary, healthy human understanding" implies. There's nothing preventing us from focusing on the same warmth that the clairvoyant speaks of, in our ordinary consciousness. The difference is only that the latter experiences this element in greater purity, without being overlaid with continuously collapsing (in QM sense) thoughts. Yes, this doesn't mean that focusing on this inner element can happen without at least a little effort. It certainly isn't something that outer life has prepared us for. Yet there's nothing preventing us from doing so without losing the ground beneath our feet - that is, the support of our bodily environment. This holds true even when we read about the various beings. For example, when we read about Spirits of Form, instead of picturing some abstract mental images of the supposed beings, we can try to feel the forces of Intelligence that support the structure of the inner Cosmos. Just like our ideal intent to picture a cube, acts like lines of force around which our imagination coalesces, so we should conceive of non-local ideal intents that act like lines of force along which the inner dreamscape stabilizes. Of course, from a secular perspective there's nothing 'ordinary' in trying to conceive of such things. They even sound extraordinary, fantastic. Yet the fact remains that if we approach these ideas with open mind, there's nothing preventing us from aligning our normal thinking being with them. We may not have the sensitivity to discern the inner ideal life that manifests as such lines of force, but our thinking being can surely align with its intuitive curvatures. If we say that we can't understand it, and we are honest, we'll have to admit that we don't understand it simply because we don't allow ourselves to. We may have the most varied excuses for this: more data is needed, we doubt, it is not confirmed by the leading scientists, and so on. Yet none of this is a principle impossibility. These are only excuses to justify holding the communications as ghostly and abstract mental images. If we allow ourselves to, we can perfectly well understand what would it mean for a higher-order Intelligence to support the structure of the dreamscape. Not abstractly but in the same way the clairvoyant understands it. This understanding will need to be purified and refined, it will have to be cleansed from many anthropomorphic admixtures, but the fact remains that we can perfectly well comprehend it while still in the bodily context.

"Ordinary, healthy human understanding" shouldn't be mistaken for understanding that is grounded entirely in sensory concepts. The healthy human being is a spiritual being. As such, understanding the spiritual depth of reality is our innate capability. Thinking in concepts about the spiritual depth is just as natural as conceptualizing the contents of the senses.
Post Reply