Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

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AshvinP
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:02 pm So what do y'all make of 'Seek first the Kingdom, and all these things shall be added unto you?'

Is the transfigured Thinking the actual Kingdom, or one of the add-ons?

Are the Kingdom-steeped Bodhisattvas hanging about in forums such as this one arguing over the sure-fire route, or instead using the add-ons to the benefit of the still spellbound suffering-prone ones who still await their destined encounter with the Revelation, however many lifetimes it may take?

I'm not sure who this is directed to but my response is yes, transfiguring our thinking into Thinking is not other than seeking the Kingdom. We are asked to take a deep curiosity and interest in the world so that we may rediscover the spiritual from within the world and ourselves. Nothing can be overcome without Self-knowledge, which is not other than knowledge of the Cosmos at large. From personal flaws and tragedies to systemic catastrophes, this higher knowledge is what opens the door to meaningful engagement. It is such a radically simple truth which has been obscured in the modern age. So obscured, in fact, that idea-lists also ignore it and remain spellbound. Yet, at the same time, no one dares to argue against it either, as in make a considered and substantive argument challenging it.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by Eugene I »

Adur Alkain wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:11 am That is a very good question! Which means, it is a very difficult question to answer.

In the quoted text I was adressing the questions we need to answer to make sense of the physical world from an idealistic perspective. I mean, those are the questions we need to answer to get some understanding of what the physical world is. What you are asking here goes beyond that: you are asking why the physical world is as it is, and why it exists in the first place.

This is the kind of question that scientists systematically avoid or reject, but it certainly doesn't lie outside philosophical speculation.

Following A. H. Almaas, I would say that to understand that "process-at-large" you are describing, we need to introduce an intermediate level of reality between Universal Consciousness (or M@L) and ego-consciousness (what Rupert Spira calls "the limited mind"): this intermediate reality is what Almaas calls individual consciousness or soul.

Most nondual teachings (like Rupert Spira's, or like most forms of Buddhism) don't contemplate the human soul as a fundamental reality. They see individual consciousness as an illusion, inseparable from ego-consciousness. Bernardo's system is consistent with this view. His DID analogy entails that individual minds are "alters", and therefore are fundamentally illusory. In this view, when the physical body dies the individual mind dies with it, and only universal consciousness remains. This is, I believe, Bernardo's view.

Other spiritual traditions, like Sufism, see the human soul as real and fundamental, and they make a clear distinction between individual consciousness and ego-consciousness. In this perspective, only the ego (which is based in a sense of separation) is an illusion. The individual soul isn't. In these spiritual teachings (Sufism,Gnosticism, Christian mysticism) the soul awakens to her fundamental identity with universal consciousness (or God) without being annihilated. The individual soul continues her journey after the death of the physical body. (This is a very different perspective, as you can see.)

I didn't mention the soul in this essay because you don't need it to understand physical reality. You can perfectly explain the physical universe starting from universal consciousness and the physical bodies of living organisms (which in my essay I explained, quite satisfactorily in my opinion, as "localizations of qualia"). But if you want to go beyond explaining the nature of physical reality and try to understand the whole "process-at-large", I think you need to introduce the individual soul.

This would take another long essay, but in a nutshell the explanation would go more or less like this: in order to know itself, universal consciousness needs to become an individual soul. Only an individual soul can have a sense of "I am this", "I am that", etc. This individual soul is not separate from universal consciousness, there is no boundary encircling it, and yet it has the capacity of differentiating itself, like a wave in the sea is not separate from the sea and yet is different from other waves.

We can imagine an infinity of individual souls existing prior to any physical reality. In this hypothetical scenario these individual souls would have feelings, thoughts, dreams, but no sense perceptions. Maybe they would communicate with each other telepathically. At some point, with the rise of the "law of consistency", sense perceptions and the whole physical universe would arise.

It is possible to understand the evolution of life as Nature exploring itself in all possible ways of physical experience. The ultimate form of self-exploration made possible by physical reality would be the human brain, capable of constructing these complex models of reality we are playing around here. It seems to be an unavoidable fact that, as part of those mental models of reality that the human brain builds, the ego arises. The ego is just a mental model of the self. The soul or individual consciousness tries to know itself via this brain-made computational model, and it ends up identifying with the model, with the mental construct.

All (or almost all) human beings go through an ego-identity phase. Most people die still identified with that mental construct. Only through spiritual work (or in rare cases through spontaneous awakening, maybe caused by extreme suffering, a profound near-death experience, etc.) can the soul wake up from the illusion of ego-identity and realize its fundamental identity: universal consciousness. But once awakened, the soul doesn't dissolve in universal consciousness: she continues her journey, now with the capacity for complex thinking. As an hypothesis, we can propose that by learning to use the physical brain, the individual soul acquires this new capacity for sophisiticated thinking, a capacity that she can later (after physical death) employ without need for a physical brain.

All this is highly speculative, obviously. I guess we will have to wait until we die, to see what it is like. But some spiritual traditions maintain that only through years of dedicated spiritual work can the soul acquire the capacity for retaining cohesion and a sense of individual identity after physical death. This would mean that most people would dissolve back into universal consciousness, or maybe not dissolve but forget everything about their past life (and maybe be reincarnated), and only a few highly developed souls (those who did a lot of work on themselves) would be able to continue their journey of exploration, without forgetting the lessons learned.

Then again, for Buddhists the goal of spiritual work is not to continue the journey, but to reach a state of total annihilation or extinction (nirvana) of all individuality.

Anyway. This clearly is a topic for endless exploration!
There is a large body of evidences from the works of Prof. Stevenson and his followers, from tens of thousands of NDE accounts and regression therapy sessions and from OBE accounts that this scenario of an intermediate layer of reality between MAL and physical universe is true, and here I also agree with Cleric. Most of them also confirm transmigration/reincarnation between the physical and beyond-physical realms. But from what we know based on these evidences is that this layer functions in a very different way from what we observe on the "physical" plane: it is very "fluid" and "flexible", there is no much consistency. People describe how they can manifest realities, landscapes and perceptions by their intention. It is more like a dream-like reality. Many get confused by this and believe that these "reality"-looking scenes are real, so their existence is like a sleeping-dream similar to what we experience in our non-lucid dreams when we don't realize that we are dreaming. There have been also a lot of visionaries and clairvoyants like Franklin Merrell-Wolff and OBE traveler Bob Monroe who claimed to have living experiences of the beyond-physical levels of reality and described their hierarchical structures. What is important about the descriptions of that reality is that they have a lot of similar features, yet the scenes and structures and beings that people report always vary from one report to another. This is an evidence of the "fluidity" and dream-like character of that reality: what we experience is a mix of certain higher-level truths and consistencies together with our own and our collective subconscious projections. So the mastery of living in the discarnate state becomes the ability to exist consciously in a lucid-dreaming state and differentiate the self-manifested realities form the universal truths, as well as realization that all forms that we experience (including our self-structures) are the only manifestations of consciousness (be it individual, collective or global).

And this is the point I'm making t5o Cleric: his clairvoyant knowing-experience is very much like Merrell-Wolff, Bob Monroe and others like them - dream-like projections of individual and collective subconscious intentions mixed with objective truths, while he insists that what he experiences is an absolute reality.
Last edited by Eugene I on Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

Lysander wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:43 am... And, it also opens the door, I would argue, to a reconciliation via Sophia Perennis.
I appreciate this worthy attempt at reconciliation, and I agree that it could be easily reconciled if indeed it were really only about metaphysical differences. However, what I see playing out has little to do with such differences, but rather other issues are factoring in, and that is why it just keeps repetitively playing out, going on and on in its codependent, dysfunctional, dissonant way, with no end in sight, like some marriages I know. And why as moderator/mediator I feel I must step in now and then to break it up, so as to hit the reset button, so to speak. My hope remains that both the metaphysical and the actual differences can be resolved, and the marriage can be saved, and not have to end in the imposition of divorce, all sides being willing.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:00 pm I'm not sure who this is directed to ...
Not to anyOne in particular, but thanks for the insightful response, and I remain interested in what take on it others may have to offer.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:27 pm
Lysander wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:43 am... And, it also opens the door, I would argue, to a reconciliation via Sophia Perennis.
I appreciate this worthy attempt at reconciliation, and I agree that it could be easily reconciled if indeed it were really only about metaphysical differences. However, what I see playing out has little to do with such differences, but rather other issues are factoring in, and that is why it just keeps repetitively playing out, going on and on in its codependent, dysfunctional, dissonant way, with no end in sight, like some marriages I know. And why as moderator/mediator I feel I must step in now and then to break it up, so as to hit the reset button, so to speak. My hope remains that both the metaphysical and the actual differences can be resolved, and the marriage can be saved, and not have to end in the imposition of divorce, all sides being willing.

I am really struggling to understand your perspective here, Dana. Obviously there are risks of these things getting way too personal and off topic, but I just don't see how that level was reached in this case. There was at least enough substance for someone like Lysander to follow along and draw connections between what was being discussed and his/her own views. And, if the standard of censorship is "repetitive playing out", we may as well close us up this entire shop now :) If anything, these types of 'heated' discussions open portals into potentially unique questions to consider, as opposed to the standard questions of, "what is an alter? how does dissociation happen? is MAL instinctive or meta-cognitive?", etc. In my experience so far, although those questions could potentially lead to some interesting discussion if pursued in creative ways with some basic imaginative thinking, they almost never do. And I suspect those same questions were being asked long before I joined the forum last year. There are only so many metaphysical differences people can have - materialism, dualism, panpsychism, idealism. The first two don't even factor in here except for Jim and dualisms which are posited unconsciously. After that, there is nowhere to go but the spiritual arena if one wants to discuss details of idealism and non-dualist tradition, without perpetually remaining in the 2-dimensional ouroboros of "MAL-alter" questioning.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by Ben Iscatus »

Dana, good decision, thank you.
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:55 pmI am really struggling to understand your perspective here, Dana. Obviously there are risks of these things getting way too personal and off topic, but I just don't see how that level was reached in this case. There was at least enough substance for someone like Lysander to follow along and draw connections between what was being discussed and his/her own views. And, if the standard of censorship is "repetitive playing out", we may as well close us up this entire shop now :) If anything, these types of 'heated' discussions open portals into potentially unique questions to consider, as opposed to the standard questions of, "what is an alter? how does dissociation happen? is MAL instinctive or meta-cognitive?", etc. In my experience so far, although those questions could potentially lead to some interesting discussion if pursued in creative ways with some basic imaginative thinking, they almost never do. And I suspect those same questions were being asked long before I joined the forum last year. There are only so many metaphysical differences people can have - materialism, dualism, panpsychism, idealism. The first two don't even factor in here except for Jim and dualisms which are posited unconsciously. After that, there is nowhere to go but the spiritual arena if one wants to discuss details of idealism and non-dualist tradition, without perpetually remaining in the 2-dimensional ouroboros of "MAL-alter" questioning.
I've no problem with any of that, but as I've pointed out, I don't feel it's just about metaphysical differences between various versions of idealism, but that IMV other issues are factoring in, issues that won't ever be reconciled by just dressing them up as strictly metaphysical arguments, issues that actually preempt any reconciliation of the metaphysical differences. Of course, you may disagree that that's the case, that there are no other issues playing out here, and the mod should just stay out of trying to intervene when it's gone on for several pages, even after it was stated that it is 'done', sounding all too much like those aforementioned marriage partners claiming they're done, and this time they really mean it ... until of course it begins again. As a lawyer, you surely know that there are times when the court must intervene.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by AshvinP »

Eugene I wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:03 pm There is a large body of evidences from the works of Prof. Stevenson and his followers, from tens of thousands of NDE accounts and regression therapy sessions and from OBE accounts that this scenario of an intermediate layer of reality between MAL and physical universe is true, and here I also agree with Cleric. Most of them also confirm transmigration/reincarnation between the physical and beyond-physical realms. But from what we know based on these evidences is that this layer functions in a very different way from what we observe on the "physical" plane: it is very "fluid" and "flexible", there is no much consistency. People describe how they can manifest realities, landscapes and perceptions by their intention. It is more like a dream-like reality. Many get confused by this and believe that these "reality"-looking scenes are real, so their existence is like a sleeping-dream similar to what we experience in our non-lucid dreams when we don't realize that we are dreaming. There have been also a lot of visionaries and clairvoyants like Franklin Merrell-Wolff and OBE traveler Bob Monroe who claimed to have living experiences of the beyond-physical levels of reality and described their hierarchical structures. What is important about the descriptions of that reality is that they have a lot of similar features, yet the scenes and structures and beings that people report always vary from one report to another. This is an evidence of the "fluidity" and dream-like character of that reality: what we experience is a mix of certain higher-level truths and consistencies together with our own and our collective subconscious projections. So the mastery of living in the discarnate state becomes the ability to exist consciously in a lucid-dreaming state and differentiate the self-manifested realities form the universal truths, as well as realization that all forms that we experience (including our self-structures) are the only manifestations of consciousness (be it individual, collective or global).

And this is the point I'm making to Cleric: his clairvoyant knowing-experience is very much like Merrell-Wolff, Bob Monroe and others like them - dream-like projections of individual and collective subconscious intentions mixed with objective truths, while he insists that what he experiences is an absolute reality.

As it keeps happening, I will keep pointing it out - red assertion is completely contradicted by blue one. And the "collective subconscious" cannot be equated with personal "projections".

Obviously, from the perspective of unreliable NDE-OBE accounts further complicated by the fact that they are using abstract culturally-conditioned 2-D concepts to describe their 3-D and 4-D experiences, it will inevitably be "inconsistent" and seem as "dream-like projections" (also there is no reason to assume our actual dreaming states do not lift us into higher realms). These are truly trivial observations being made. The fact that you are still assuming Cleric has not factored this repetitive "point" into his understanding still astounds and confounds me.
Last edited by AshvinP on Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:20 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:55 pmI am really struggling to understand your perspective here, Dana. Obviously there are risks of these things getting way too personal and off topic, but I just don't see how that level was reached in this case. There was at least enough substance for someone like Lysander to follow along and draw connections between what was being discussed and his/her own views. And, if the standard of censorship is "repetitive playing out", we may as well close us up this entire shop now :) If anything, these types of 'heated' discussions open portals into potentially unique questions to consider, as opposed to the standard questions of, "what is an alter? how does dissociation happen? is MAL instinctive or meta-cognitive?", etc. In my experience so far, although those questions could potentially lead to some interesting discussion if pursued in creative ways with some basic imaginative thinking, they almost never do. And I suspect those same questions were being asked long before I joined the forum last year. There are only so many metaphysical differences people can have - materialism, dualism, panpsychism, idealism. The first two don't even factor in here except for Jim and dualisms which are posited unconsciously. After that, there is nowhere to go but the spiritual arena if one wants to discuss details of idealism and non-dualist tradition, without perpetually remaining in the 2-dimensional ouroboros of "MAL-alter" questioning.
I've no problem with any of that, but as I've pointed out, I don't feel it's just about metaphysical differences between various versions of idealism, but that IMV other issues are factoring in, issues that won't ever be reconciled by just dressing them up as strictly metaphysical arguments, issues that actually preempt any reconciliation of the metaphysical differences. Of course, you may disagree that that's the case, that there are no other issues playing out here, and the mod should just stay out of trying to intervene when it's gone on for several pages, even after it was stated that it is 'done', sounding all too much like those aforementioned marriage partners claiming they're done, and this time they really mean it ... until of course it begins again. As a lawyer, you surely know that there are times when the court must intervene.

No I agree there are definitely non-metaphysical issues at play here, I am just saying those issues deserve deep discussion and consideration just as much if not more as the metaphysical ones. Clearly my essays, for ex., have barely discussed metaphysics at all. I just assume an idealist framework of understanding and move on. Maybe we are using the term "metaphysical" in a different way?
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Intuitive Idealism vs. Analytic Idealism (Part II): An alternative formulation of idealism

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:34 pm


No I agree there are definitely non-metaphysical issues at play here, I am just saying those issues deserve deep discussion and consideration just as much if not more as the metaphysical ones.
To be sure, that's why there are marriage councillors, and when even that doesn't get at the underlying issues, therapists/shamans skilled at delving into the shadowlands of the psyche ... and alas divorce lawyers. In any case, those issues don't often get resolved without some sort of skilled intervention, which, with respect to all participants, I'm not sure is going to be found in this forum. But insofar as it is bound to get down-and-dirty personal, there's always PM mode, which the Mod doesn't see at all.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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