What causes bad trips?

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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:45 am- Why have so many brilliant philosophers failed to realize something as simple as the phenomenon and noumenon being united in their own thinking activity? Can we really assume so many people would have gone their entire lives missing this connection when they are studying precisely that epistemic issue?
This speaks to the above point about how without the indelible, experiential Realization of knowing ThySelf, if it remains just a conceptual exercise that at best offers an inkling of the truly profound implications you are speaking to, then regardless of how brilliant an analytical philosopher one may be, still what is focused on determines what is missed, and they are no more Self-realized than the vast majority. Indeed, there are many more non-philosophers who being ripe for it, in a highly intuitive way, have known the indelible experiential element. Or perhaps it takes an extreme event like an NDE. However, some philosophers like Jean Gebser have known this indelible, foundational experiential Realization, and it is no surprise that he was attracted to the teaching of Ramana Maharshi. This excerpt from a bio is surely indicative of this indelible Knowing ...

Gebser had confided to close acquaintances that he had had an enlightenment experience (satori). “It was sober,” he put it, “on the one hand happening with crystal clarity in everyday life, which I perceived and to which I reacted ‘normally,’ and on the other hand and simultaneously being a transfiguration and irradiation of the indescribable, unearthly, transparent ‘Light’–no ecstasy, no emotion, but a spiritual clarity, a quiet jubilation, a knowledge of invulnerability, a primal trust.”

Gebser unexpectedly had this experience while he was visiting Sarnath in 1961, the place where 2,500 years ago the Buddha preached his first sermon. A year later Gebser published his Asienfibel (Primer on Asia), subsequently reissued in expanded form under the title Asien Lachelt Anders(Asia Smiles Differently), in which we meet Gebser the thoughtful traveler and bridge builder. He regarded the East/West encounter as central to our contemporary task of personal and cultural integration. He wrote, “The view that East and West are opposites is wrong. It is not permissible to apply opposite-creating rational thought in this context, which can, if we continue to persist in this faulty opposition, even lead to the suicide of our culture or civilization. West and East are complementarities. In comparison with the dual, divisive character of opposition, complementary is polar and unifying.”

Gebser, as a spiritual pilgrim, also visited Tiruvannamalai in South India, where Ramana Maharshi, one of modern India’s finest sages, had lived and taught until his death in 1950. But where he felt most in the presence of the emergent arational-integral consciousness was in the Pondicherry ashram of the twentieth-century philosopher/yogi Sri Aurobindo. the creator of “integral yoga,” who, incidentally, also died in 1950


And if his Winter Poem is any indication, Gebser was surely intuiting this Realization from very early on ...

The shining winter sky
is close enough to touch;
and you too are this sky.
No reason to distinguish.
For all the stars flow through your veins.
No reason to hearken after
the echo of ancient myths,
for the angel is on its way
to nest again into the heart,
until the human crown is covered with hair:
for the dream of moon and earth has melted away,
since it knew heaven;
knew it once and for all.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:52 am
AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:45 am- Why have so many brilliant philosophers failed to realize something as simple as the phenomenon and noumenon being united in their own thinking activity? Can we really assume so many people would have gone their entire lives missing this connection when they are studying precisely that epistemic issue?
This speaks to the above point about how without the indelible, experiential Realization of knowing ThySelf, if it remains just a conceptual exercise that at best offers an inkling of the truly profound implications you are speaking to, then regardless of how brilliant an analytical philosopher one may be, still what is focused on determines what is missed, and they are no more Self-realized than the vast majority. Indeed, there are many more non-philosophers who being ripe for it, in a highly intuitive way, have known the indelible experiential element. Or perhaps it takes an extreme event like an NDE. However, some philosophers like Jean Gebser have known this indelible, foundational experiential Realization, and it is no surprise that he was attracted to the teaching of Ramana Maharshi. This excerpt from a bio is surely indicative of this indelible Knowing ...
...
And if his Winter Poem is any indication, Gebser was surely intuiting this Realization from very early on ...

The shining winter sky
is close enough to touch;
and you too are this sky.
No reason to distinguish.
For all the stars flow through your veins.
No reason to hearken after
the echo of ancient myths,
for the angel is on its way
to nest again into the heart,
until the human crown is covered with hair:
for the dream of moon and earth has melted away,
since it knew heaven;
knew it once and for all.

Thanks, Dana. Great poem by Gebser.

We really don't need any "extreme event" to see this Unity of noumenon and phenomenon in our own Thinking. Actually such events may prove counter-productive in thr modern age, as they leap past the individual right into the Universal and Eternal, failing to account for all that stands "in between" so to speak. As we write often, it is the meaning imbued by careful reasoning which truly enriches our experience in a healthy and lasting way. But we must reason from a solid foundation, with minimal prejudices i.e. assumptions, and that is where most modern philosophies go off the rails right from the jump. There is simply an enormous prejudice against one's own participatory role in the world via Thinking. It never even occurs for analytical philosophers to search for the noumenon in their own Thinking activity. If we read Cleric's post I quoted a few comments back carefully, then everyone who did so has already discovered this connection which is missed during the entire careers and lives of others. But we seldom realize it, because we are so mistrusting of our own Thinking at a deep level. Of course these prejudices didn't arise out of nowhere, but can be traced to nominalism, rationalism, dualism, transcendentalism, etc., and even deeper to the adversarial forces working through major abstract thought-systems which only refer back to more abstractions, but it doesn't matter now as long as we recognize they actually exist and need to be overcome.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Soul_of_Shu
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Soul_of_Shu »

AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:52 pmThanks, Dana. Great poem by Gebser.

We really don't need any "extreme event" to see this Unity of noumenon and phenomenon in our own Thinking. Actually such events may prove counter-productive in thr modern age, as they leap past the individual right into the Universal and Eternal, failing to account for all that stands "in between" so to speak. As we write often, it is the meaning imbued by careful reasoning which truly enriches our experience in a healthy and lasting way. But we must reason from a solid foundation, with minimal prejudices i.e. assumptions, and that is where most modern philosophies go off the rails right from the jump. There is simply an enormous prejudice against one's own participatory role in the world via Thinking. It never even occurs for analytical philosophers to search for the noumenon in their own Thinking activity. If we read Cleric's post I quoted a few comments back carefully, then everyone who did so has already discovered this connection which is missed during the entire careers and lives of others. But we seldom realize it, because we are so mistrusting of our own Thinking at a deep level. Of course these prejudices didn't arise out of nowhere, but can be traced to nominalism, rationalism, dualism, transcendentalism, etc., and even deeper to the adversarial forces working through major abstract thought-systems which only refer back to more abstractions, but it doesn't matter now as long as we recognize they actually exist and need to be overcome.
It remains a mystery to me what instigates this transition in any given psyche. I do feel that but for some indelible experiential element it seems unlikely that I would have ever picked up a metaphysical book, never mind actually reading it. Then again, who knows what incarnational preparation has played into that. By the time I was 30 I was obsessed with such reading, enough so to fill an entire wall of bookshelves within a few years. Around that same time our son was born who is now 40. A defacto materialist, he has zero interest or inspiration when it comes to metaphysics/spirituality, such that whenever I attempt to draw him into a very basic conversation of that sort, never mind any deeply esoteric ideas, his eyes glaze over, and we're soon talking about about baseball instead. So apparently it is not epigenetically instilled, and I've had to become resigned to him just not being ripe for it. As for what it might take short of some revelatory shock to the system to change that, I'm open to suggestions.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by AshvinP »

Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:36 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:52 pmThanks, Dana. Great poem by Gebser.

We really don't need any "extreme event" to see this Unity of noumenon and phenomenon in our own Thinking. Actually such events may prove counter-productive in thr modern age, as they leap past the individual right into the Universal and Eternal, failing to account for all that stands "in between" so to speak. As we write often, it is the meaning imbued by careful reasoning which truly enriches our experience in a healthy and lasting way. But we must reason from a solid foundation, with minimal prejudices i.e. assumptions, and that is where most modern philosophies go off the rails right from the jump. There is simply an enormous prejudice against one's own participatory role in the world via Thinking. It never even occurs for analytical philosophers to search for the noumenon in their own Thinking activity. If we read Cleric's post I quoted a few comments back carefully, then everyone who did so has already discovered this connection which is missed during the entire careers and lives of others. But we seldom realize it, because we are so mistrusting of our own Thinking at a deep level. Of course these prejudices didn't arise out of nowhere, but can be traced to nominalism, rationalism, dualism, transcendentalism, etc., and even deeper to the adversarial forces working through major abstract thought-systems which only refer back to more abstractions, but it doesn't matter now as long as we recognize they actually exist and need to be overcome.
It remains a mystery to me what instigates this transition in any given psyche. I do feel that but for some indelible experiential element it seems unlikely that I would have ever picked up a metaphysical book, never mind actually reading it. Then again, who knows what incarnational preparation has played into that. By the time I was 30 I was obsessed with such reading, enough so to fill an entire wall of bookshelves within a few years. Around that same time our son was born who is now 40. A defacto materialist, he has zero interest or inspiration when it comes to metaphysics/spirituality, such that whenever I attempt to draw him into a very basic conversation of that sort, never mind any deeply esoteric ideas, his eyes glaze over, and we're soon talking about about baseball instead. So apparently it is not epigenetically instilled, and I've had to become resigned to him just not being ripe for it. As for what it might take short of some revelatory shock to the system to change that, I'm open to suggestions.

It sounds like you should really introduce him to PoF. If he has a logical reasoning disposition at all, then he may really appreciate it.

What I am saying is that it should not be a "mystery" - in fact it should be a "mystery" how we ever failed to see this connection which stares us right in the face whenever we are awake! I understand where you are coming from, as I would have felt the same way in the recent past. I thought it was very important to get other people introduced to deeper realities by way of metaphysical or religious thought-systems, so they could come to same idealist 'revelations' I had come to. Now I think those can be helpful in the right context, but it's really a waste of time if one does not first or simultaneously come to confront their own participatory role in the phenomena around them. All it takes is the simple phenomenological reasoning in PoF to understand this participatory spiritual activity at a very deep level. What prevents us from even considering that reasoning, let alone trying to understand how it applies to our daily experience, is simple prejudice against that activity. For whatever reasons, we refuse to acknowledge its immanent reality within us. It's really nothing more complicated than that.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:58 pmIt sounds like you should really introduce him to PoF. If he has a logical reasoning disposition at all, then he may really appreciate it.
Well, I don't suppose one gets a degree in journalism, and masters degree in education, without having logical reasoning skills. But even if he were inclined to read PoF, which seems doubtful given what I know of it, the moment it subsequently lead to claims of clairvoyant access to occult knowledge and transcorporeal realms of being, that would be be a deal breaker, since he's not buying that my OBEs are anything other than some kind of neurological aberration, which some meds could probably fix ... talk about some bad trip ;)
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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AshvinP
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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Soul_of_Shu wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:31 pm
AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:58 pmIt sounds like you should really introduce him to PoF. If he has a logical reasoning disposition at all, then he may really appreciate it.
Well, I don't suppose one gets a degree in journalism, and masters degree in education, without having logical reasoning skills. But even if he were inclined to read PoF, which seems doubtful given what I know of it, the moment it subsequently lead to claims of clairvoyant access to occult knowledge and transcorporeal realms of being, that would be be a deal breaker, since he's not buying that my OBEs are anything other than some kind of neurological aberration, which some meds could probably fix ... talk about some bad trip ;)

Yeah but PoF does not lead there at all. No spiritual stuff is even mentioned, except maybe the words "spiritual activity". I suppose the hardest part is motivatng people to read anything these days, and also getting people to refrain from googling Rudolf Steiner before they decide to seriously consider PoF or not.
“It is your presumption that freedom is something which you already possess that ensures that you will remain in chains."
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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A defacto materialist, he has zero interest or inspiration when it comes to metaphysics/spirituality, such that whenever I attempt to draw him into a very basic conversation of that sort, never mind any deeply esoteric ideas, his eyes glaze over, and we're soon talking about about baseball
Yes, I've noticed that mathematical, musical and literary abilities often run in families, but philosophical and religious interests are much less likely to. I still shudder at a deeply religious couple I knew when I was young tried to instil religion into their wayward son with belting and confinement to his room.
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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AshvinP wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:39 pmYeah but PoF does not lead there at all. No spiritual stuff is even mentioned, except maybe the words "spiritual activity". I suppose the hardest part is motivatng people to read anything these days, and also getting people to refrain from googling Rudolf Steiner before they decide to seriously consider PoF or not.
He was reading the entire works of Tolkien quite young, but yes, once the cyber-age took hold reading took a back seat. Yet he's still occasionally inspired to read books that I would not consider easy reading. In any case, I doubt he would be drawn to PoF without also being drawn to consider what the rest of Steiner's vast oeuvre was about, and would most likely conflate it all, rightly or wrongly.
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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Re: What causes bad trips?

Post by Cleric K »

ParadoxZone wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:53 pm Is there anything you can point me to that deals with sleep experimentation that you think might be helpful? Is it advisable/necessary to go through stages, eg remembering dreams, then lucid dreaming etc? Or are there other, less sequential methods?
Direct experimenting with dreams is not really necessary for higher development. The reason is that in dreaming we have in fact a diminished state of consciousness, which is remnant of a previous stage of evolution. It is true that dream imagery can reflect both bodily and higher processes but the way this reflection works is not that which we develop when we work towards Imaginative consciousness.

Everyone knows that certain emotions from the previous day can influence our dreams. We live at night with the emotions in the astral body and they incite some kind of dreamscapes. When we wake up we are immediately aware that our whole dream has been an emotional reverberation of the events from the previous day. But we didn't know that during the dream. This is something that we very easily forget. There are many people who hold dreams in very high regard (and as said it is indeed possible that they reflect higher facts in symbols) but there's one important fact: in the dream we don't know that there's such a thing as waking life, while in waking life we know that our same "I" was dreaming last night. In this respect, even though in certain sense our waking consciousness is much more physical, quite rigidly sucked in the sense organs and the nervous system, yet it is nevertheless higher than dream consciousness. We can in fact take this as a hint about what higher means - the higher consciousness always must encompass the lower. From our higher "I"-experience we're able to comprehend the lower but from the lower perspective, the higher effectively doesn't exist. It is really there but we're indistinguishably merged with it. It carries us on its waves but we're fully asleep for it, we're only awake for where it carries us and what it shows us.

Such is the situation also with higher consciousness. Our waking consciousness is oblivious about a higher standpoint, just as in dreaming we're oblivious of our waking state. When Imaginative cognition is developed, we gradually step with full consciousness into the dream realm but we now live in processes which evade our consciousness in the ordinary state. Here we become conscious of the most varied soul processes which are not constrained only within our own soul-sphere, so to speak, but are as currents in a soul-sea. For example, if we had an argument with someone which made us feel in a particular way, these feelings could reverberate in our soul life at night and stimulate the most varied dream imagery. We're so engrossed in the imagery that we accept it as finished fact of reality. Upon awakening it's obvious that we were living in the reverberations of the feelings but our consciousness was too dimmed down to conceive this. As a rule, man of today takes the feeling as a finished fact, just as we take the dreamscape as finished fact in the dream. We accept it for what it is, we say "I'm so angry with that person". And we may even have quite convincing intellectual story about why exactly we're angry. Yet when we step into the Imaginative realm we become awake on a higher level, from which our ordinary state seems just as dimmed down, as when we look from our ordinary state upon our dream self (there's an important difference that while dreaming and waking alternate sequentially, in higher cognition our states are one within the other, as it were). In the higher state we can observe that our soul is placed in very specific configuration in respect to that of the other person. Just as electrically charged particles may produce a spark when they get near each other, so our souls react in a specific way when they interact. When I say 'they react' we shouldn't imagine that we observe in the higher state the souls as we observe magnets in the sensory world and they react mechanically. We live completely cognitively within the very processes. They are not mechanical, they are of soul and spiritual nature, as our thinking is. We shouldn't try to produce soul-physics and go on to model the soul world as charged spheres interacting through various laws. This would be a devastating blow to evolution. This would be similar as if in our dream we begin to speculate that there are higher processes which shape the dreamscape but instead of seeking a way to wake up and find the reality of the processes, we begin to build an abstract theory about them within the dream. This would make us a dream-world Kant, who believes that we can only speculate about the true processes behind the dreamscape through dream-mental-images but it's not possible to ever wake up to their reality and find it within our own conscious experience. Such is the situation if we try to create mechanical models of the higher worlds. Everything that is being reported as observations from these higher states should not become mechanistic theory but should stir our own soul and spirit in motion such that we can livingly experience, as far as possible, these observations as if we ourselves are the spiritual investigator.

With all this being said, it should be clear that focusing our energies on dream investigation itself can never lead us to higher order realities. We can at most arrive at some kind of divination (as it has been the case through a large part of humanity's history). But today we need to do something else. We shouldn't look towards the dream state and hope that only if we could remember more of our dreams we would get better grasp of the astral world. It's almost certain that this won't happen. It's much rather that we need to learn from the vertical relation of the waking and dreaming state and use that knowledge to turn our attention towards a direction where we can expect that we'll awake in an even higher state which will put both our ordinary and the dream state in a much more comprehensive higher perspective.

Lucid dreaming could give us somewhat valuable experience of the reconnection with the bodily senses but other than that, it can't give us the cognitive skills to recognize the higher order soul world. Just as psychedelics, we're much more likely to simply over-intellectualize the dream contents. The type of consciousness that detaches from the senses and linear thinking, and lives in the soul flows and patterns can only be developed patiently and gradually through meditative exercises.

Since the sleep spectrum is practically the same gradient that we ascend with higher cognition (and which we go through between death and new birth), naturally it is very often spoken of in spiritual science. There are many lectures that deal with that subject. Here's just an example: The Experiences of Sleep and their Spiritual Background.
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Re: What causes bad trips?

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Cleric K wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:22 pmDirect experimenting with dreams is not really necessary for higher development. The reason is that in dreaming we have in fact a diminished state of consciousness, which is remnant of a previous stage of evolution. It is true that dream imagery can reflect both bodily and higher processes but the way this reflection works is not that which we develop when we work towards Imaginative consciousness ...
With this insight I now feel absolved of whatever inclination I had to transcribe my peripatetic dreamtime adventures ;) Do you think that perhaps there's a reason by design that they fade upon refocusing within the waking state?
Here out of instinct or grace we seek
soulmates in these galleries of hieroglyph and glass,
where mutual longings and sufferings of love
are laid bare in transfigured exhibition of our hearts,
we who crave deep secrets and mysteries,
as elusive as the avatars of our dreams.
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