Whirlpool's core/first motion

[Soul_of_Shu]

I admit, I don't remember a more difficult post than this from my experience here I wrote and discarded the text many times and I finally surrender. There's a thick wall and there's nothing that I can say (which hasn't been said before) which can make any difference.

Well, this is disappointing. I feel you are simply expressing directly what is implicit in most comments here - "we have absolutely no interest in knowing the spiritual worlds". It's not a question of following Steiner or Anthroposophy either - many esoteric streams converge on the same underlying observations of spiritual evolution we are pointing to here. When we wake up in the morning, we don't expect beings to simply bring everything we need to our front door after we evolve from infancy. If the period once we go to sleep, or once we die, and the physical sheath is laid aside is continuous with the waking/living state, then why do we expect this will be done for us? This is no different than believing some old man with a white beard is going to let us into the pearly gates after we die if we simply believe we are spiritual.

No living organism has ever evolved by waiting passively for beings to give them what they need to adapt and grow. Modern humans are not special in this regard. Actually, the time for passive differentiation into the sensory world has already passed thousands of years prior, and any further passive existence of this sort will create irreconcilable fragmentation and deep unconsciousness. This is what sound logical reasoning indicates. Anyone who has overcome materialistic dogma and knows Consicousness leads to perceptual appearance, not the other way around, also knows, deep down, it is possible to know everything we are saying here through their own experience and reasoning. They simply don't want to know.

In the new Matrix movie, Neo is re-enslaved by the Matrix machines because they convince him all his spiritual memories are part of his own computer simulation, rather than an objetive spiritual reality beyond the Maya that he once participated in. That appears to be the case with analytic idealism and most people here, even those critical of analytic idealism. They went from slumbering in materialist dogma to slumbering in, "it's all my own simulation, so what does it even matter?" That is yet another Maya dream character speaking within the dream, not an awakened soul.

Am I awakened? No, but I am perfectly aware of how and why I am not awakened, and I am increasingly aware of the tendencies within me which desperately want me to stay asleep. Simply knowing that, and knowing it is possible to awaken, keeps me working towards that awakening. Most people here feel they are already awakened, or that simply doing nothing is sufficient for evolving/awakening (these are synonymous), and therefore have no desire to actually do inner work for awakening. It is perfectly clear the problem is not in our writing or argument, because these are not even questioned, but in the desire of people not to understand anything beyond the Maya dreamscape of abstract onceptualizations with no stakes.

Needless to say I have serious issues with these assessments and interpretations. Perhaps what we can agree on is that once entering into the incarnational dream of the corporeal, spacetime construct, the human 'self' expression is highly prone to becoming utterly transfixed and identified with it, aka 'maya', to the point that with the indoctrination into the resultant materialist mindset everyone almost entirely forgets and obfuscates the relational dynamic with one's oversoul origin/aspect/counterpart—even in the case of this self expression, that had a very difficult time growing into and adapting to the incarnational form—notwithstanding that the apparent telos of this 'fall' is that there are crucial and integral lessons to be learned from it that can't be learned in any other way. The challenge then becomes how to re-know that ever-present dynamic, and with those required lessons of incarnation acquired, leverage it to our collective benefit in the creative evolutionary play of Lila.

However, I still intuit here that everyone must figure this out in their own time and praxis, however very, very long and suffering prone that may be. One can certainly understand the need that someone may feel, once they feel they have figured it out, to assist others in quickening the endeavour, to minimize the frustration and suffering as much as possible, seemingly ignoring that they too may have taken countless incarnations, and endured much misery, to figure it out. But I see little evidence of the feasibility of that quickening endeavour, not even here in a forum that attracts those who would presumably be the least resistant. Yet who knows about those who've appeared here from time to time that have shown some interest and inclination to 'get it', who have all but disappeared after a while, with no reports back as to how that is working for them. Have they just fallen back into the maya state? Or perhaps they are too busy now arting the dreamscape

[Cleric K]

The challenge then becomes how to re-know that ever-present dynamic, and with those required lessons of incarnation acquired, leverage it to our collective benefit in the creative evolutionary play of Lila.

How? By following the contradictions. To use the Matrix metaphor again - Neo in the first part had to follow a thread - he had to follow the white rabbit. Note that he didn't simply stay in his basement apartment and wait for the answer to drop from the air. He had to act. He saw the sign of the white rabbit and had to make an inner decision - to follow it. And this is nothing new. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." Things can hardly be more explicitly stated than this. The Christ didn't say "stay in your basement apartment and wait for the oversoul to illuminate you when it decides you're ripe enough."

To move from the metaphorical to the concrete, we should find out what the white rabbit is in our living situation, not only as floating metaphor that never connects to anything real. And in the most general sense, the white rabbit in our dreamscape is - contradiction.

Please note how mutually supporting the facts are. What is thus stated is not some exotic idea that has nothing to do with all our experiences.

At the turn of the 20th century scientists were under the impression that they had practically figured Nature out. Only few details were left to be brushed out here and there. Yet it is precisely these minor details, which seemed like cosmetic cracks on the surface, which when followed, led to entirely new worlds. Relativity and quantum mechanics turned the almost packaged and ready for the market picture of the Newtonian universe into bizarre beast beyond anything that 19th century scientists could have imagined.

Those who have trained for more systematic achievement of lucid dreams know that the main tool is called 'reality checks'. In our waking file we get in the habit to look for the consistent flow of reality. We should pay attention to things that we take for granted - like the fact that the clock arrow moves steadily. In our dreams things are often not consistent. When we look at our dream clock it often doesn't move of moves irregularly. When we have turned the reality checks into more deeply ingrained habits, these contradictions in our dreams make much greater impression on us and then we snap "I'm dreaming!" Just as in science, following the crack of contradiction leads us into a new world.

It's the same with spiritual matters. "The challenge how to re-know that ever-present dynamic" turns into the challenge to find the contradictions (which are only the point of departure, of course). I know that you have a favorite saying "With the fusion, the confusion ends". And although it is literally true when we consider the depth axis of reality, it actually leads to paralysis when we apply it only at the intellectual plane. This would be as if the scientists were to say "Let's just ignore these tiny discrepancies in the experimental data. They only cause confusion. We smear them out, fuse them and we're done." Or imagine that our dream self says "The clock moves irregularly - big deal, you're thinking too much. This thinking only confuses you. Stop thinking and you'll see how beautiful and fused everything is." Yes, 'fused' but strictly mired in the dream world.

Contradictions are like the border of a fractal.



At low iteration count we see a contradiction between the black and the colored area. Here one can intellectually say "Well, it's all one. You're confused because you focus on the fact that there are two different areas. Just pretend that they are one and the same and all troubles will be gone." Yet, as we increase the iteration count and we focus on the borderline between the two, we discover a world beyond our wildest imagination.



Let's get back to concrete examples. What is this contradiction that we so readily sweep under the carpet? It is what we're talking about in the last few posts here. It is what we've talked about with Lou long ago. It is the inner contradiction that on one hand we want to simply flow merrily with the dream. We just want to lay back and watch a good movie. We don't want to feel responsible for anything, we simply give ourselves to the movie and trust that our protagonist will be taken wherever the dream ordains. On the other hand we feel that we can be active, that we can understand the flow and we can make a difference through navigating consciously.

Everyone feels on some level that this must be the case. Otherwise why would we be in a forum like this? We feel that there's something to be grasped about the nature of the dream flow, which potentially can lead to new ways of shaping it.

And here's the contradiction. It's almost a trend today to say something like "just follow your heart/oversoul/hormones". But isn't it plainly obvious that everyone is doing this anyway? Our collective state is such because everyone follows blindly their whims and sooner or later they lead to clashes with others. Clashes between personalities, families, tribes, races, religions, species. Sooner or later we come to a point where two persons desire the same object and then they begin to fight. One says: "No, you step back. My oversoul is much wiser. My desire for the object is divinely ordained. You're just following your twisted passions, so step back!" Of course, the other person says the exact same thing! Everyone is convinced that their whims are divinely ordained and others are who must change their ways. Yes, exactly - we should lay back and watch our movie while others are expected to make efforts and change their ways - it is never we that shall make an effort.

This a blinding, eye-poking, burning contradiction. And the reason people don't notice it is become they have become completely desensitized through our modern wise gurus who say "Don't worry about the contradictions. They exist only as long as you think about them. Just close your eyes and let go. Follow your heart or however you call it."

And this is how the Matrix is sealed tight. This guarantees that we can never re-know that ever-present dynamic. We simply close our eyes for the most glaring crack that runs from end to end of the dreamscape.

Most idealists feel superior to materialists because they have spotted part of the crack in the dreamscape. For the materialist there's no contradiction that even in principle it is impossible to build consciousness from our concepts of matter/energy. It is like the clock is moving irregularly for them yet they are desensitized for it - it's just a part of the dream - and keep seeking explanations/correlations within the dream. The idealist gains a small degree of lucidity by recognizing "This irregularity is not simply a feature of the dream. It is a contradiction which invites me to follow it deeper and there I find out that it all proceeds from a thinking error of which I have been unconscious, I was fast asleep for the thinking which was bouncing within the poles of the contradiction. It is like a recurring dream pattern that keeps popping up and I take it as part of reality. When I awaken to that part of my being which is in position to think that pattern, I realize the error - a knot is untied within my dreaming being and I become one degree more lucid. But before that was to happen I had to become aware of the contradiction."

Just as Ashvin wrote - unless further steps are taken, analytical idealism leads from one form of Maya into another. True, that latter form is more lucid than the previous but it's clear that it is not the end solution. Otherwise we wouldn't recognize that any challenge to re-know the ever-present dynamic, exists.

So unless we recognize this central crack in the dreamscape, we have no chance to attain to another degree of lucidity. We're bouncing between the poles - one tells us "There's a challenge here, something must be understood, something must be done". The other pole tells us "Let go, close your eyes, keep dreaming. There's a challenge only as long as you think there's a challenge. Stop thinking and you'll see there's no challenge. There's only the dream flow in its intrinsic is-ness."

This is the contradiction, these are the two areas - the dark and the light and the border in between. If we don't feel this to be a contradiction, if we're perfectly at peace to simply keep dreaming and accept whatever comes, then this is what we'll do. Even if on paper we speak about awakening, lucidity, re-knowing, these words remain only floating dream pictures. They don't have the momentum to nudge the dreaming ego from its comfortable and familiar position.

On the other hand, if we feel this contradiction between activity and receptivity, if we realize this contradiction is not to be simply smeared out, fused and forgotten about, it has the potential to lead us into the fractal boundary where we find a world beyond our wildest imaginations. It is precisely this fractal boundary which is at the focus of PoF - the place where the ideal and the perceptual meet. It's not the goal to superficially smear this polarity and dream happily in apparent lack of contradiction. Instead, by entering deeper into the thinking process we also come in contact with the fractal boundary where the forces driving the dreamscape are found. Our inner world is the fractal boundary, the dreamscape is the fractal boundary, and only when we intimately experience how contradicting poles flow into each other, we have the chance to awaken into higher degrees of lucidity. If we simply smear out the boundary, if we reduce the iteration count and we live in apparent lack of contradictions, we're a completely unfree witness of Cosmic happenings, which lead us hither and tither and our voices are deafened by the winds, as we try to communicate (for no clear reason) with other leaves blown around.

It is easy to see why we avoid confronting this contradiction, why we avoid the perception of our own spiritual activity. Without the proper perspective, the challenge to re-know the ever-present dynamic is an impossible hard challenge, just like saying "the challenge is to understand how consciousness arises out of matter." is an impossible hard problem. We want a dream picture - we want to see a brain and how consciousness evaporates from it. In the same way we want to find the ever-present dynamic as a dream picture presented to us. The true challenge is that this picture manifests not simply as readymade image for our invisible awareness to enjoy. The picture manifest when we struggle at the fractal boundary and recognize there the reflections of our own spiritual activity. These reflections follow the shape of the fractal, just like the activity of our fingers follow the shape of the object that we're touching. In this way, by being conscious of the dynamics of our spiritual activity, we also come to know of the fractal dreamscape.

And this is the key: we only perceive the fractal boundary when we're active, just like we only have tactile perception of the shape of an object by being active with our fingers. If we are not spiritually active, we live in apparent lack of contradiction and laminarity, yet we're a leaf carried by the mysterious and forever unknowable dream streams.

And if now after all the above someone says "I don't see any contradiction here" - then I'm done. It's like pointing at the clock within a dream and saying "look, the arrow moves irregularly", while the other person says "I don't see what you mean." If after all these attempts to show what is meant, the person still doesn't see what is meant, it simply means that on some level the person still prefers the dream world. The person may be curious, they might want to hear a story about the real world but they certainly don't want to approach the crack through which they can know the real world. There are contradictions, white rabbits in the dream that they prefer to close their eyes for. Of course this won't save them from any of the suffering, but at least they'll say "Well, what you're gonna do - this is simply how the movie goes, nothing to be done about it."

You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy, and delicious. After nine years.. you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.
...
If this is reality [speaking of the real world], I prefer The Matrix.

[Soul_of_Shu]

...

I get what you're getting at Cleric, and understand that this is all fine for one at a stage-specific point in the process. There was a time when this human expression was content with being transfixed by the maya state, could not have cared less about the ideas you express above, which might as well have been gibberish, and one could have been dismissed as being recalcitrant and shiftless for not pursuing a spiritual path, when seemingly out of the blue, with no prior practice or interest, that life changed in a flash of utter astonishment by an indelible Revelation which would render all of the ideas you've herein expressed seem irresistibly compelling thereafter—as was the Seth material I soon after discovered, randomly misplaced in the horror section of a used bookstore, which I now know was no mere accidental happenstance. Why I was ripe for that Revelation, soon followed by that Information, remains a mystery, but I intuit that it required a lot of incarnational experience, replete with much suffering, as if undergoing some very long, voracious, yet integral larval stage, awaiting the trigger that would begin the creating of the chrysalis, and all that then can eventually follow, like the urgent inspiration to create poetry, a flow that was futile to resist. So I'm not discouraged by those who just don't 'get it', since I'm intimately familiar with how that can change in a flash. As such, your offerings are appreciated, even as they once would have been balked at.

[AshvinP]

...

I get what you're getting at Cleric, and understand that this is all fine for one at a stage-specific point in the process. There was a time when this human expression was content with being transfixed by the maya state, could not have cared less about the ideas you express above, which might as well have been gibberish, and one could have been dismissed as being recalcitrant and shiftless for not pursuing a spiritual path, when seemingly out of the blue, with no prior practice or interest, that life changed in a flash of utter astonishment by an indelible Revelation which would render all of the ideas you've herein expressed seem irresistibly compelling thereafter—as was the Seth material I soon after discovered, randomly misplaced in the horror section of a used bookstore, which I now know was no mere accidental happenstance. Why I was ripe for that Revelation, soon followed by that Information, remains a mystery, but I intuit that it required a lot of incarnational experience, replete with much suffering, as if undergoing some very long, voracious, yet integral larval stage, awaiting the trigger that would begin the creating of the chrysalis, and all that then can eventually follow, like the urgent inspiration to create poetry, a flow that was futile to resist. So I'm not discouraged by those who just don't 'get it', since I'm intimately familiar with how that can change in a flash. As such, your offerings are appreciated, even as they once would have been balked at.

But what if it hasn't changed in a flash? What if your 'self-awakening' is yet another deception within Maya, and actually the Mother of all deceptions, because it is of the sort which guarantees you will never discover it? Whether it's another deception or not, you can never know. The materialist can still awaken, because there are still all sorts of internal contradictions which will make themselves known over time if the person continues reasoning, just as they did for the people on this forum. The 'self-awakened' mystic cannot awaken, because the contradictions have been smeared out and they are under the illusion that these contradictions have disappeared from their existence. There is no motivation to keep searching for contradictions and reason through them. So, with all due respect and sincerity, you don't get what Cleric is getting at and this is what we keep trying to tell you.

Maybe we are the ones deluded and somehow fail to understand how you actually do understand everything we are writing, but since we have not declared ourselves fully self-awakened, only awaiting the 'Oversoul' (or whatever deceptive force you are confusing for the Oversoul) to give us more spiritual wisdom as it deems fit and when it deems fit, we have the possibility of discovering our delusion, while you do not. You are actually one of the few people here who have been supportive of our efforts and open to our criticisms of BK's idealism. So do you think we are badgering you because we don't realize that doing so may alienate one of the few supporters we have left here? No, we are perfectly aware of that, yet continue to make these posts, because we know you don't understand the points being made and we really want you to understand.

People with the 'self-awakened' mindset are in more precarious position than the materialists, similar to the fundamentalists. The only way out is a radical humility which allows it to awaken to the fact that it's 'self-awakened' identity is yet another dreamer, and then begins to delve into its own subconscious with thinking and figure out how this second dreamer came into existence. Do you see a flaw in this logic or do you just 'feel' we are mistaken, even though the logic is sound, and you'd rather trust whatever shadowy forces are still working within your subconscious? Why are those forces telling you not to think too much about them with logic and reason, but just blindly accept they are part of the benevolent Oversoul? Again, if we have too much pride to consider this possibility, then we have made impossible any otherwise possible awakening to it. That is why we must "seek first the Kingdom of God in righteousness" within us in a living and humble way.

[Soul_of_Shu]

But what if it hasn't changed in a flash?

Well, what if it has? What could I offer in words regarding the ineffable that would act in lieu of someone knowing what I have known, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that the lawyer in you can't counter with making some case for plausible deniability? But go ahead, maybe the 'jury' will buy it. I'll stand by the adage that "by their fruits you shall know them". I can only offer the following that would not have been conceived absent such a Revelation ...

Nature, the fount of life, has its seasons,
winter, spring, summer, autumn.
So it is with the seasons of the soul,
now asleep, now awakening,
now blossoming, now bearing fruit ...
all appearing in their allotted time.
Oneness holds them all equally,
these dreamtime apparitions,
these cycles of life and death,
the sun-kissed leaf, the frostbit flower,
the suffering child, the grief-stricken heart,
the praying mantis devouring her mate,
should one ever dare to aver
any one would be without the other.
Thus sleep peacefully this dark night,
knowing it births the newborn dawn.

[AshvinP]

But what if it hasn't changed in a flash?

Well, what if it has? What could I offer in words regarding the ineffable that would act in lieu of someone knowing what I have known, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that the lawyer in you can't counter with making some case for plausible deniability? But go ahead, maybe the 'jury' will buy it. I'll stand by the adage that "by their fruits you shall know them". I can only offer the following that would not have been conceived absent such a Revelation ...

Nature, the fount of life, has its seasons,
winter, spring, summer, autumn.
So it is with the seasons of the soul,
now asleep, now awakening,
now blossoming, now bearing fruit ...
all appearing in their allotted time.
Oneness holds them all equally,
these dreamtime apparitions,
these cycles of life and death,
the sun-kissed leaf, the frostbit flower,
the suffering child, the grief-stricken heart,
the praying mantis devouring her mate,
should one ever dare to aver
any one would be without the other.
Thus sleep peacefully this dark night,
knowing it births the newborn dawn.

So you don't see the difference between a poem and all that Cleric has illustrated about the spiritual worlds and their relation to our own? Do you honestly read his posts and think they are simply more intellectual theories about the spiritual, rather than knowledge which could only come from first-person experience across the threshold of death? If you are open to this latter possibility, don't you have any interest in knowing what's beyond that threshold? Couldn't the wise guidance of the progressive spirits put us here on your path to help you awaken to these higher worlds?

You haven't yet pointed to any precise spiritual knowledge you have gained from experience, not even with metaphors or analogies, only some vague inspirative connection with the Oversoul. Can you point to anything more tangible than that?

[Soul_of_Shu]

You haven't yet pointed to any precise spiritual knowledge you have gained from experience, not even with metaphors or analogies, only some vague inspirative connection with the Oversoul. Can you point to anything more tangible than that?

There's the lawyerly persona demanding just the facts again As if you can have any way to know what profound meaning and effect this "vague inspirative connection" has for this psyche, behind which transcribed words, all of which are ultimately a poor translation, as another poet put it, is an unconditionally Loving presence that were I to attempt to speak in the Voice I actually 'hear', I would be gladly dumbstruck, rather than inclined to offer 'spiritual knowledge' such as this ...

[Federica]

There is a small chance that my ignorance of history and vicissitudes here, my inability to judge, inability to even comprehend the whole story, can somehow paradoxically help. What is lent to me by trying to sink into the moments of this story is, exhaustion and respite, asking to be seen by everyone involved first. Causes of exhaustion call for respite. I want to give full credit to this necessity.
Realizing there is also a chance this might land as tasteless or inappropriate, I take the risk in good faith. I apologize if this is happening.

[Soul_of_Shu]

There is a small chance that my ignorance of history and vicissitudes here, my inability to judge, inability to even comprehend the whole story, can somehow paradoxically help. What is lent to me by trying to sink into the moments of this story is, exhaustion and respite, asking to be seen by everyone involved first. Causes of exhaustion call for respite. I want to give full credit to this necessity.
Realizing there is also a chance this might land as tastless or inappropriate, I take the risk in good faith. I apologize if this is happening.

Not inappropriate at all, quite the contrary. I am actually innately inclined to take rather long periods of respite and quietude, but alas, as the only mod here, I have a duty to at least listen in, however much it can occasionally be quite discomforting when the tit-for-tat spiteful nastiness comes to the fore. Are you by any chance interested in a volunteer job here?

[Cleric K]

Well, the point was simple enough, although the last few posts got more heated than necessary.

I can put that into a picture. In our age we begin our life mostly as in a dark cave, not knowing up from down. Many people coming here do so because of certain inner event similar to that of Shu, which impels one to seek deeper understanding.

This is a very rough way to put it but we can speak of three kinds of illumination and consequent transformation.

The first is in which we experience illumination by grace, which adds a new layer to our being. In simplest terms, we understand from direct experience that we're not the body but a spiritual being with the corporeal spectrum being only a part of the full spectrum. How to proceed from this point is unclear. For many this is seen as the highest revelation possible, the event which concludes the purpose of Earthly existence. In any case, if there's something more to be experienced it can be expected once again only by grace, simply because even if we want to continue further, we don't conceive of any direction. There's still no up and down.

The second kind is where we are illuminated by grace but we also receive an understanding of a direction. It is like a crack opens in the cave above and the Sun floods in. Now we also have a concept of spiritual up and down (not to be taken in strictly spatial way! We can say also inwards and outwards. Spatial directions are only illustrative). Yet we're still unclear how to move. Basically we sit and wait for the Sun to come down to us or as a last resort - we to go to it after death.

The third kind is like the second but we also understand how our Earthly self is modulated on the floods of light. Now we understand that the Sun is our higher self, whose light is stepped down as it enters the cave. Now we not only understand up and down but we also know that it is through our own activity that we must seek to express more and more fully the Sun being shining in our cave. The Sun Self of course bestows on us all the means - strength, love, wisdom - yet it is a two way process, it is our cave-self who can choose in absolute freedom to become a conductor of them and to manifest them individually at our level of consciousness. When this path is pursued we also begin to receive glimpses of the Sun perspective of our being, through which we understand how our current cave destiny is entangled in the evolutionary flow of the whole humanity. The Sun Self is one.