The realm of the Demiurge

[Stranger]

Right, I'm not selling anything and not making any profit from it, what's the point of negotiating?

[Federica]

Under the cover of your good eloquence… What remains? Let’s look at the evidence, what you are doing here, Eugene, is not preaching Oneness. It’s negotiation. Hard-learned, good quality negotiation. There are a few things you must manage to maintain in balance, indeed.
In fact, one of the most decisive things to understand early on for a successful negotiation process is to clearly identify the players. All the players. When this step is overlooked, it often becomes a game of procrastinating the moment when we will have to jump off the tightrope, and decide to either surrender our vows to our stance, or our stance to our vows. But the longer we wait, the more difficult it will become.
I trust you’ll know how to change the game before it’s too tough, and hopefully fall on your feet.

exactly what is he negotiating for? spell it out please.

Right, I'm not selling anything and not making any profit from it, what's the point of negotiating?

Guys... (if you allow me the expression, otherwise please replace with anything appropriate) you haven't carefully read what I've written, or the Merriam Webster definition of negotiation, or both.
Martin, you seem intrested in making it conflictual? I am certainly not here to attack Eugene, quite the opposite. I think I spelled it out clearly enough in my previous two posts. Please read them one in the continuation of the other, and you will see.
Eugene, you got carried away all the way from Budhisattva to Martin's vibe?

negotiate
verb
ne·​go·​ti·​ate ni-ˈgō-shē-ˌāt nonstandard -sē-
negotiated; negotiating
intransitive verb

: to confer with another so as to arrive at the settlement of some matter

I would complete: to confer with another, but there are often multiple, and hidden parties, so as to arrive at a settlement of some matter, i.e. seeking to reach agreement on a joint plan, in an attempt to pursue one's own goals.

I am not sure why you suggest that selling and profit should be involved.
And, the difficulty is often to identify all the parties involved, and to not overlook any, which is indeed what your very questions seem to demonstrate.

[Stranger]

I would complete: to confer with another, but there are often multiple, and hidden parties, so as to arrive at a settlement of some matter, i.e. seeking to reach agreement on a joint plan, in an attempt to pursue one's own goals.

I am not sure why you suggest that selling and profit should be involved.
And, the difficulty is often to identify all the parties involved, and to not overlook any, which is indeed what your very questions seem to demonstrate.

I was joking, but sorry, I admit I have a bad sense of humor ...

But I have too many other responsibilities in my life (I'm actually working full time), so I really don't have time and resources to negotiate and go through these debris of complicated relationships. I just say what I feel I need to say to witness the truth that I know in case if anyone wants to hear, and to clarify and answer questions if any, but if some people are not interested, I'm ok with that, I have no expectations at all.

I honestly would rather end this discussion, I don't want to repeat the same things over and over ad nauseum. But if Cleric has any relevant questions, I'll be happy to discuss.

[AshvinP]

Eugene, a question about the latest meditation you posted on the other thread. I'm writing here because it fits the topic better.

I'm sure you know that the affirmation "I'm indestructible and changeless", if taken one-sidedly becomes something very seductive to the lower self. So the question really is what is changeless?

I know that you are aware of all this and my question is what are your methods to counteract this danger? For example, the fact the Eugene in this present incarnation feels certain sympathies and antipathies about reincarnation obviously cannot be a part of the changeless aspect because what we call incarnation doesn't even exist in the higher strata of being (where there's only transformation). When you meditate, what are the countermeasures to be taken in order to avoid mistaking the changeless aspect of the essential being with something that is relatively consistent through our present incarnation but at the scale of evolution is only a swing of a pendulum far from equilibrium?

You are absolutely right, Cleric, there are so many pitfalls and distorted ways in nondual practices. You are right, some meditative states are very seductive for the lower self. Especially in the Advaitic practices where the self-enquiry goes through the "I am That" thinking path, the pitfall is to associate the sense of lower self ("I am") with the Self of all ("That"), and this would be a big cognitive mistake that many Advaita practitioners actually fall into. It basically leads to a self-inflated super-narcistic state of "I am God". The "I am That" is supposed to be understood in a different way: "I am That, you are That, they are That, everything is That". Buddhism takes a safer path, and before proceeding to realize the Self, goes through a practice of realization of the falsity of the lower self (the practice of "anatta"="no self") and a falsity of any self-identification in general. We usually associate our sense of self with our identity, and it is crucial to realize that any kind of identification is a false premise. Christ's teaching (if understood from nondual perspective) also goes through a safer path and approaches the Oneness with the Father through the denial of the lower self ("Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.").

But there are many other pitfalls where people get stuck in some weird states of consciousness mistaking them for nondual realization. This is why, as I said above, in the authentic Tibetan Buddhist schools the nondual practices were kept secret and were only passed directly from masters to students who were practicing under the guidance of the masters to avoid these pitfalls. In our days the authentic teachers are very hard to find and get engaged with, and there many false teachers and practices, especially in modern neoadvaita.

So when we understand things in this way, our changeless being is really something that can be only asymptotically approached towards the point of Source, which is the eternal and infinite potential of Being that lives in all beings.

Well, this is the key point: it can be actually reached to directly, not asymptotically, right here and now. The Source is That which consciously experiences everything (=Awareness), the Source is that which is ever-present (=Being), That which Thinks and Wills. The infinite potential to Be, to Aware, to Think and to Will is changeless. In our direct experience from our first-person perspective we actually know directly that all forms, phenomena and thoughts are present and consciously experienced, that there is always thinking and willing. This knowledge is direct. We usually associate (identify!) this ability with our lower self and think "it is I, human Eugene, who exists and is aware, who thinks and wills", but this is a cognitive mistake, the Being and Awareness, Thinking and Willing is actually the Source itself. It is right here and now, our conscious experiencing, being (presence), thinking and willing is exactly the Source's conscious experiencing, being/presence, thinking and willing. It's exactly like Meister Eckhart said: “The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love.” We are all Awareness-Being-Thinking-Willing, we are all only made of the Source and only the Source, we have absolutely no mode of existence other than being the Source. It is not "I, a human being Eugene" who is Thinking, willing, Experiencing and Being. We just fooled ourselves and convinced ourselves that it is our lower self that experiences and thinks. We "stole" the Thinking, Willing, Being and Experiencing from the Source and identified our lower self with it pretending to be someone other than the Source. But that is only a stupid idea that we mistake for the truth, it is not what the actual reality of our being is. As a result of this deception, we perceive our lower self as the perceiving "center" of the universe that perceives and experiences the outside world, which is a complete delusion, and form this comes the delusive subject-object split. It is actually the other way around: it is our sense of lower self (which is nothing more than a thought-feeling) that is produced by the Source's ability to Think and experienced by the Source's ability to consciously experience forms (=Awareness). Once this delusion is recognized and removed in our mind like a veil, the reality can now be seen directly as it is - a flow of phenomena and forms, a spiritual activity of Thinking and Willing, all happening in the unlimited space of Source's Consciousness which is the same everywhere in every individuated soul, and we are now directly at the point of the Source (or, more precisely, the Source recognized Itself in our individuated stream of Its Consciousness). But not from its Cosmic perspective, only from its "localized"/individuated perspective, but fundamentally it makes no difference because it is still the same Source in a full existential sense. So, the key is that it is not that we as separate beings asymptotically approaching the point of Source in order to "merge" with the Source, it is a simple realization that we have never been apart from the Source and never been anything/anyone other than the Source, and that the existence as someone other than the Source was just a false idea in the first place, just a delusion. So, once we drop this delusion, what remains is just the direct knowledge of the Source being Itself and being Aware of its own Awareness and own Being in our individuated stream of Thinking.

So now, regarding the distinguishing "changeless" from changing content that can be mistaken as "changeless". The Source's Being is changeless, it cannot not to Be. Its Awareness (which is the same as awareness of the flow of our conscious experience) is changeless, it cannot not to be Aware. It's Thinking ability is changeless, it cannot not to be able to Think. But everything else (including our sense of lower self and identification, of perceiving the world as objects and subject) is a content of Source's awareness that is changing, even though some aspects of that may seem to be relatively constant. Surely, the is ideal content shared between individuated activities, and so it can be said to be "changeless" in its own Platonic way so to speak, so we can also call the Source as the "Idea" as long as we make a distinction between the "coherent" shared content of the Idea from its incoherent content. (And the dualistic delusion is surely a part of its incoherent content).

Another key is not to associate nondual (so-called) "state" with a meditative or seductive state and not to become attached to it (which subconsciously will become a shortcut and something to grab on for the lower-self ego). Nondual realization is not really some king of a blissful state, it's a simple experiential realization of the Source being Aware of Itself here and now in "our" individuated stream of spiritual activity, being Aware of its own changeless Being and Awareness, and of the whole world being a stream of forms in the same One Source's Consciousness. So, when this realization is discovered and become present in our stream of Thinking, this is called "nondual state". But any sense of "bliss" that we may feel is not changeless, it is only a byproduct of this realization. So, in a way, that is why it is called realization of "pure Consciousness" to distinguish its changeless aspect from the ever-changing content (not because the content makes it in any way "impure", but it's just a linguistic idiom not to be taken literally). So, the nondual realization is not a "bliss" to become attached to, but it is simply adhering to the truth of the Source directly knowing Itself as Itself and abandoning a self-deception when we (the individuated spiritual activities of the Source) pretend and believe to be separate from the Source (which is actually just an incoherent thought appearing in the Source's awareness).

For example, the fact the Eugene in this present incarnation feels certain sympathies and antipathies about reincarnation obviously cannot be a part of the changeless aspect because what we call incarnation doesn't even exist in the higher strata of being (where there's only transformation).

That's a fair question. Of course, reincarnation is not a changeless aspect, it indeed has no existence in the higher strata of being. Incarnation is just a specific relatively consistent pattern that our stream of thinking is shaped with (so it is not "changeless" in a full sense, but still has some temporary lawful structures and consistency shaping the thinking). However, the dualistic state is a falsity, and realization of Oneness of everything with the Source is the realization of Truth. Then, what is a point of being in a state of such self-delusion? What is the point of the thinking being shaped with this falsity pattern and relentlessly returning to the same falsity pattern? And if a form of incarnation (such as human) forces these false thinking patterns and memory-erases the true thinking pattern at the moment of birth, then there is a natural reason to avoid it. As I said before, abiding in Truth is not an egoic preference, not a "sympathy", and avoidance of falsity is not an "antipathy" of a lower self. In summary, the Source acts through its individuated spiritual activities, and some of them fall into a false state of thinking by believing to be someone else (separate lower self) other that the Source itself. That is a "spiritual insanity", and recovering and further avoiding of this insanity is a natural and lawful process in the Source's Thinking, which includes avoiding specific incarnations and forms that force the thinking pattern to fall into such insanity.

It can be compared with taking a hallucinogen drug that forcefully puts the mind into a psychotic state. Why would a person in a sane state of mind do that? I mean. it may be ok to do it once just to have such experience, but what's the point of doing it over and over again (other than getting stuck in an addiction)?

See, you are now looking at this nondual practice and you rightly noticed how actually difficult it is to reach to this point of Source realization, how many delusive pitfalls there are on the path, how clever and manipulative is the subconscious ego trying to "privatize" all our realizations, grab on to the blissful meditative states and become the "enlightened ego", and that is all true. It just shows how deeply we are immersed in this dualistic insanity in our human form and human mind patterns. It indeed takes extraordinary move to break through this bubble of dualistic egoic self-delusion. And even after the breakthrough the older egoic patterns continue to forcefully shape out thinking in its habitual delusive ways, even though we can now see "through" these delusive patterns from another nondual perspective of a higher level of thinking. But once we break it, what is the point of falling back into the enclosed bubble state again and again in the next incarnations? But OK, sorry, I keep coming back to the reincarnation issue, and let's put it aside for now and leave it for the discretion of each soul.

And, I think I said that before, but just to emphasize. Recovering from dualistic delusion in no way stops or impedes our evolution as individuated spiritual activities of the Source, it actually catalyzes it in new ways because it liberates it from handicapped state of dualistic delusion. There is still a huge realm of dynamic polarities and lawful structures, forms and ideas, hierarchical levels of cognition to explore, develop and know. It is just that this "realm" (which is a state or mode of thinking) is free from the delusion of duality. (In the Buddhist tradition this mode is called "enlightened activity")

Disclaimer: I know, my explanations are probably confusing and have many inconsistencies, I'm not a teacher of nonduality, so please take them with a grain of salt and discernment.

My only observation here is, what you wrote above, in its fullness and detail and depth, is a great means of carrying out your vows and spreading the message of Oneness. Even if I disagree with some parts of it, specifically with regards to the issue of 'directly approaching the Source' and conclusions about the utility of reincarnation (which we can hardly judge from the Earthly plane), it is a very reasonable summary and actually focuses mostly on our responsibility for making the self-conscious effort of realizing the 'spiritual insanity' of dualistic idolatry. After all, you have just shown it is completely within everyone's potential to do so - no 'genes' or what have you are preventing this self-conscious realization. We don't need to speculate about what the 'sheeple' can or can't do, only what we can do here and now. And we certainly don't need to spread this message by sharing YT videos about the evil Demiurge who imprisons us on Earth and websites which speak of 'revoking agreements'. What good can possibly come of that except confusion, abstraction, and externalization of blame, with the natural apathy and/or resentment which results? Even if that hasn't been your experience, there is simply no denying that is how many people react when they adopt such views (or they adopt such views because they want to justify a predisposition to such reactions). It is especially troublesome if these things are posted with very little commentary or context. There is nothing phenomenological i.e. first-person experiential about it, and none of it is in keeping with the spirit of what you just wrote above. Of course I am not suggesting you should stop posting whatever you feel like - this is a forum with complete freedom of thinking/speech - but I think it's worth keeping in mind the qualitative divergence between that OP and this latest post.

[Stranger]

Here there is something even more elusive but I'll have to see how to formulate it. It has to do with the fact that even the completely nonverbal intuition that we know ourselves as the changeless being that is Aware, that Thinks and so on, can already stagnate us. I'll see how to make this more explicit but it'll be tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

Cleric, I think I know what you are saying, because I saw that in the nondual community, and I felt the attraction of this "black hole" state myself. Some people tend to "bliss-out" and stagnate in this "nobody here, noting to do" "I am THAT" pitfall, and some even interpret the "liberated state" as a state of nothingness, absence of any activity or even any perception of any forms. This is actually one of the known pitfalls on the nondual path. In Buddhism it is considered a spiritual trap, it is called "the realms of arupa-loka" (formless states). I always argued against it. This knowledge "ourselves as the changeless being that is Aware, that Thinks and so on" is actually supposed to do the opposite - to release the capacity of the Source's knowing, thinking willing and creative activity in each of its individuated thinking stream from the handicapping delusion of separation that chains its activity to very limited egoic and dualistic thinking patterns. It's like a person in psychotic delusion that is so obsessed with its grandiose or paranoic ideas that she/he becomes dysfunctional. Likewise, we in our dualistic delusion usually become so obsessed with our self-centered egoic interests spanning from the illusion of separate self that we literally become dysfunctional in our capacities of spiritual and creative activities.

[Stranger]

My only observation here is, what you wrote above, in its fullness and detail and depth, is a great means of carrying out your vows and spreading the message of Oneness. Even if I disagree with some parts of it, specifically with regards to the issue of 'directly approaching the Source' and conclusions about the utility of reincarnation (which we can hardly judge from the Earthly plane), it is a very reasonable summary and actually focuses mostly on our responsibility for making the self-conscious effort of realizing the 'spiritual insanity' of dualistic idolatry. After all, you have just shown it is completely within everyone's potential to do so - no 'genes' or what have you are preventing this self-conscious realization. We don't need to speculate about what the 'sheeple' can or can't do, only what we can do here and now. And we certainly don't need to spread this message by sharing YT videos about the evil Demiurge who imprisons us on Earth and websites which speak of 'revoking agreements'. What good can possibly come of that except confusion, abstraction, and externalization of blame, with the natural apathy and/or resentment which results? Even if that hasn't been your experience, there is simply no denying that is how many people react when they adopt such views (or they adopt such views because they want to justify a predisposition to such reactions). It is especially troublesome if these things are posted with very little commentary or context. There is nothing phenomenological i.e. first-person experiential about it, and none of it is in keeping with the spirit of what you just wrote above. Of course I am not suggesting you should stop posting whatever you feel like - this is a forum with complete freedom of thinking/speech - but I think it's worth keeping in mind the qualitative divergence between that OP and this latest post.

I agree that there is a lot of "conspiracy garbage" in these YT videos, but there are also some info and glimpses of what may be going on in some other levels/realms, especially if we take into consideration somewhat similar info from spiritual traditions of the past. If we see people in the Earth domain mostly immersed in the dualistic delusion, many of them involved in hierarchical and dominating structures (government, corporate etc) using manipulative tactics to get what they want, then it is also reasonable to assume that there is plenty of discarnate souls trapped in the same delusion and doing similar activities on higher planes. As Hermetics say, "As above, so below". This is not to become paranoid and get into conspiracy theories, but just a word of caution that we should not be naive and should not accept any discarnate beings approaching us as necessarily benevolent higher-order ones, and that we need to use discretion and "be wise as serpents" and be aware of their ability to masquerade as benevolent. And we see many of similar warnings in the Gospels and the scriptures of other traditions. But I'm glad that otherwise we converged to something agreeable.

[AshvinP]

My only observation here is, what you wrote above, in its fullness and detail and depth, is a great means of carrying out your vows and spreading the message of Oneness. Even if I disagree with some parts of it, specifically with regards to the issue of 'directly approaching the Source' and conclusions about the utility of reincarnation (which we can hardly judge from the Earthly plane), it is a very reasonable summary and actually focuses mostly on our responsibility for making the self-conscious effort of realizing the 'spiritual insanity' of dualistic idolatry. After all, you have just shown it is completely within everyone's potential to do so - no 'genes' or what have you are preventing this self-conscious realization. We don't need to speculate about what the 'sheeple' can or can't do, only what we can do here and now. And we certainly don't need to spread this message by sharing YT videos about the evil Demiurge who imprisons us on Earth and websites which speak of 'revoking agreements'. What good can possibly come of that except confusion, abstraction, and externalization of blame, with the natural apathy and/or resentment which results? Even if that hasn't been your experience, there is simply no denying that is how many people react when they adopt such views (or they adopt such views because they want to justify a predisposition to such reactions). It is especially troublesome if these things are posted with very little commentary or context. There is nothing phenomenological i.e. first-person experiential about it, and none of it is in keeping with the spirit of what you just wrote above. Of course I am not suggesting you should stop posting whatever you feel like - this is a forum with complete freedom of thinking/speech - but I think it's worth keeping in mind the qualitative divergence between that OP and this latest post.

I agree that there is a lot of "conspiracy garbage" in these YT videos, but there are also some info and glimpses of what may be going on in some other levels/realms, especially if we take into consideration somewhat similar info from spiritual traditions of the past. If we see people in the Earth domain mostly immersed in the dualistic delusion, many of them involved in hierarchical and dominating structures (government, corporate etc) using manipulative tactics to get what they want, then it is also reasonable to assume that there is plenty of discarnate souls trapped in the same delusion and doing similar activities on higher planes. As Hermetics say, "As above, so below". This is not to become paranoid and get into conspiracy theories, but just a word of caution that we should not be naive and should not accept any discarnate beings approaching us as necessarily benevolent higher-order ones, and that we need to use discretion and "be wise as serpents". And we see many of similar warnings in the Gospels and the scriptures of other traditions. But I'm glad that otherwise we converged to something agreeable.

Unless of course they agree with what we already believe, and say 'I have been sent to help you away from the false light and realize your option to continue evolving apart from the Earthly realm'. Then we should listen closely because they are true Light beings

Anyway, if you agree there is a lot of conspiracy garbage in the videos, maybe it would help to point that out next time and direct our attention to what is the useful info and what is the garbage. And to be clear, I don't think we should be pointing blame for our spiritual deficiencies at the 'hierarchical and dominating' structures in the Earthly domain either.

[Stranger]

Unless of course they agree with what we already believe, and say 'I have been sent to help you away from the false light and realize your option to continue evolving apart from the Earthly realm'. Then we should listen closely because they are true Light beings

Fair enough I think the best advice to deal with it is by John: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4) But in order to be able to do that, we need to experientially know what God actually is, that is the only way to develop the spiritual discernment.

[AshvinP]

Unless of course they agree with what we already believe, and say 'I have been sent to help you away from the false light and realize your option to continue evolving apart from the Earthly realm'. Then we should listen closely because they are true Light beings

Fair enough I think the best advice to deal with it is by John: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4) But in order to be able to do that, we need to experientially know what God actually is, that is the only way to develop the spiritual discernment.

Ok well we naturally circled back to the topic which is always so central here, because all spiritual inquiries demand that we understand it, which is the role of Thinking as comprehensively addressed in PoF. It is what Cleric brought attention to here:

The nondual path presents us with the possibility for the exact same cognitive error. It's the discarding of the cognitive force present in the intellect in order to seek some other, yet unknown, nondual cognitive force which is completely orthogonal to the intellect.

And what you ostensibly agreed with here:

Sounds good to me, Cleric. Nondual cognition is not independent of our thinking core,

Now will we stick with this thinking core to 'test the spirits to see whether they are of God' or distance from that core towards a 'pure awareness' or 'experiencing' which replaces the cognitive force we use in all other aspects of life and we are using right here on this forum to self-consciously discuss all of these things? Notice I am not saying we use the discursive intellect to test the spirits, but the cognitive force which incarnates in the intellect, and is continuous with it, but is nevertheless distinct from it.

I suppose we can wait for Cleric's next comment and see where it goes.

[Stranger]

Now will we stick with this thinking core to 'test the spirits to see whether they are of God' or distance from that core towards a 'pure awareness' or 'experiencing' which replaces the cognitive force we use in all other aspects of life

We cannot separate the cognitive core of Thinking from Awareness because it is the same core. That which Thinks is also That which is Aware of every thought and of Thinking itself. In the actual inner experience we cannot separate them and say - "here is the Thinking core and here is the Awareness of it". I mean, we can do such separation, but only as an abstraction. If we look at our direct first-person experience, we see that every act of thinking is inseparably and immediately/simultaneously consciously experienced, that there is awareness/experiencing of every thought and of Thinking itself (if we pay attention to that experience). Thinking IS Awareness, they are inseparable, but they represent somewhat different aspects of the same ever Thinking-Experiencing Self. But I agree that there is a trap in some nondual teachings claiming that we need to sublimate the "pure awareness" and stop thinking in order to achieve "enlightenment". That's nonsense. It's a misinterpretation of some Zen practices where by "stopping thinking" they meant suspending the lower-order discursive and abstract thinking where the delusion of separation resides in order to divert the attention to the awareness of Thinking itself.