Meditation exercise on "separate me"

[Stranger]

I think a huge factor in maintaining the 'separate me' existence is the natural antipathy of modern souls for selfless service aimed towards an objective hierarchical structure existing above/behind one's current perspective. The sympathy for 'complete soul freedom now' is what maintains the 'separate me' existence, since it treats our intuitive stream of becoming as something which can progress almost completely independently of the intuitive becoming of all other Earthly souls and the collective souls along the vertical gradient. With living thinking, we can become conscious of this objective gradient and thereby dispel the illusion of independent soul-evolution (the opposite of "all for one, one for all; united we stand, divided we fall"), which alone maintains factions, tribes, sects, etc. We can stop abstractly complaining about 'sects' and actually do something concrete to harmonize them.

See my response to Cleric above

[AshvinP]

how close\far off is ChatGPT from intended?

As I see it, the important point is that the words by themselves, without our conscious intelligence behind, can't be said to be close to, or far off from, an intended meaning, because they don't encapsulate or hold any meaning, they only point to it. It's very different.


It's as if someone came in and gave you a plank of plywood, a Japanese saw, a few screws and tools, and told you to make a stool. And I am given the same material to make one as well. Surely your finished creation would be different from mine, even if both are intended to mean the same thing - to sit down. When we are finished with the work, we put our creations in a public space and see if people actually use the two pieces as we intended, as seats. If they do, it shows that the meaning we wanted to convey - sitting down - was well understood by means of the objects we created, even if the two stools look different. Maybe we'll notice that some people get it, some people don't, and some will only understand "sitting down" with your stool, and not with mine, or the other way around.


In the same way, for every one meaning, there are many ways to convey it to others, with different words. But just like the stool in itself doesn't bear any meaning (only a person does, by taking a concrete action and sitting on it) so the words alone don't bear any meaning, no matter if it's in Ashvin's version, in ChatGPT version, or other. They are only stimulators of meaning. And we can respond or not to the stimuli, by taking a concrete meaning-forming action within us.


So in this case, if the GPT's version is a better handle for you, a better stimulus, to help you take within yourself the concrete action (thinking gesture) that will bring the meaning to life, that's great!
The important thing is, can we make the meaning happen within us? Some wording can help us better than other ones, depending on our unique personality, but words are only a stimulus, we can't count on any words to offer us meaning on a silver plate just like that. We always have to make a personal creative effort of meaning-making.


All this was to say that words - GPT or other - can't be close to/far off from the intended meaning. Only conscious beings like you and me can.

This is a great metaphor, Federica, and points to the key difference between normal cognitive meaning and higher cognitive meaning - inner effort. Our normal thinking is conditioned to the sensory spectrum where meaning comes ready-made with perception - even if we see two different stools, the meaning of 'place to sit' is practically automatic with the perception for most people. Actually we had to learn this meaning in our childhood as well, but that happened instinctively and therefore below the threshold of our waking consciousness. The learning curvature was a gift from the Gods. Similarly, for humanity as a whole, the learning curvature for the entire sphere of sensory nature was undertaken instinctively. Now that natural sphere exists as support for our continued life and spiritual activity. It exists as a 'throne' for us to occupy.

But the question is, how are we going to react or respond to this gift of sensory nature - are we going to take it for granted, complain about it, waste it, diminish it, or even demonize it, or are we going to take thinking responsibility towards it? We can't expect the deeper meaning of our spiritual activity to simply reveal itself to us as the natural meanings do. Instead we should expand ourselves into these deeper meanings, by taking active and attentive interest towards our inner life and the outer world. If we remain generally uninterested and inattentive to what we are thinking, feeling, doing and perceiving, then it should be no shock that we remain with superficial, instinctive, automatic meanings. As the perceptual environment grows more complex and deepens, we will always feel overwhelmed and 'left behind' if we remain at the surface with our flotation device. Instead we can learn how to swim into the depths with our spiritual activity.

[AshvinP]

And it will not work anyway, which is already obvious from seeing how few active members you have vs. how many efforts you put into building it. It will not work because understanding Steiner's teachings require high level of intelligence, but intelligent people are usually not so easy to turn into submissive members of totalitarian sect (unless they have unresolved psychological issues).

I'm not going to really bother with an elaborate post here. Suffice to say, anyone who undertakes the path of living thinking will begin to realize that the Earthly spiritual evolution is happening, and therefore the realities of that evolution are precipitating into human consciousness, regardless of what particular people choose to adapt to the evolving and integrating environment. Unfortunately, as stated in the last post, the people who choose to stubbornly maintain their intellectual theories of independent, responsibility-free soul-evolution, will simply start to feel more and more overwhelmed, anxious, depressed, out of place, etc. Many will take refuge in unhealthy substances and practices to temporarily alleviate the symptoms. We already see this happening to a great extent. All we can do here is try and plant seeds which the Spirit can nourish, as it so Wills, so that as few souls as possible are caught completely blind-sided by what's actually taking place, whether they are aware of it or not, and therefore have the noble opportunity to consciously participate in the creative evolution.

[Cleric]

'Integration of individuated activities into the nondual dimension is more like liberation of the individual perspective" from the dualistic perception of reality (including the "separate me", "separate other beings" etc ) that is incoherent with the actual Reality of the World, and experientialy perceiving the World as a diversity of spiritual activities of One Subjectivity. Such liberation removes the "egoic-bubble" barrier that prevents the Divine creative impulses to freely unfold. But simultaneously with that, there is, as you said, "integration with other perspectives (which would mean integration of interest groups so to speak)", and these two integrations do not contradict each other, but enhance each other, unless the interest group is following the dualistic anti-evolutionary curvature (in which case these two streams of integrations will be in contradiction, because the dualistic evolutionary curvature impedes the nondual integration). So, the key is applying the spiritual discernment and deciphering which interest group and which structural curvature you are integrating with - the one in harmony with nondual curvature, or the one opposing it.

Then in such a case it should be conceivable that above the nondual individual, there's a point where the Earthly matrix should also be integrated? Below that point the worlds are clearly differentiated and the nondual individual can supposedly choose where to exercise its creative potential. But this individual perspective can exist only by virtue of the fact that the world potential is differentiated. Thus to integrate it, one can't simply go elsewhere to continue evolution in other differentiated worlds - the worlds themselves must be integrated.

[Federica]

This is a great metaphor, Federica, and points to the key difference between normal cognitive meaning and higher cognitive meaning - inner effort.

Thanks, Ashvin. Well I guess the metaphor would only be good to the extent that it makes any sort of difference for Lorenzo. We'll see in case any feedback is shared.

Our normal thinking is conditioned to the sensory spectrum where meaning comes ready-made with perception - even if we see two different stools, the meaning of 'place to sit' is practically automatic with the perception for most people. Actually we had to learn this meaning in our childhood as well, but that happened instinctively and therefore below the threshold of our waking consciousness. The learning curvature was a gift from the Gods. Similarly, for humanity as a whole, the learning curvature for the entire sphere of sensory nature was undertaken instinctively. Now that natural sphere exists as support for our continued life and spiritual activity. It exists as a 'throne' for us to occupy.

But the question is, how are we going to react or respond to this gift of sensory nature - are we going to take it for granted, complain about it, waste it, diminish it, or even demonize it, or are we going to take thinking responsibility towards it? We can't expect the deeper meaning of our spiritual activity to simply reveal itself to us as the natural meanings do. Instead we should expand ourselves into these deeper meanings, by taking active and attentive interest towards our inner life and the outer world. If we remain generally uninterested and inattentive to what we are thinking, feeling, doing and perceiving, then it should be no shock that we remain with superficial, instinctive, automatic meanings. As the perceptual environment grows more complex and deepens, we will always feel overwhelmed and 'left behind' if we remain at the surface with our flotation device. Instead we can learn how to swim into the depths with our spiritual activity.

Yes, for me personally this angle you're showing is helpful. Hopefully I am not the only one, I think I'm not

[lorenzop]

So in this case, if the GPT's version is a better handle for you, a better stimulus, to help you take within yourself the concrete action (thinking gesture) that will bring the meaning to life, that's great!

The GPT version did remove most of the pretentiousness and confusoin in the original text. GPT's version more clearly revealed a belief system I am not interested in adding to my life.

[Stranger]

Then in such a case it should be conceivable that above the nondual individual, there's a point where the Earthly matrix should also be integrated? Below that point the worlds are clearly differentiated and the nondual individual can supposedly choose where to exercise its creative potential. But this individual perspective can exist only by virtue of the fact that the world potential is differentiated. Thus to integrate it, one can't simply go elsewhere to continue evolution in other differentiated worlds - the worlds themselves must be integrated.

<<one can't simply go elsewhere to continue evolution in other differentiated worlds - the worlds themselves must be integrated>>
The nondual realms are indeed already integrated to various extents depending on the level of development of the souls abiding there, extending to the completely integrated realms. It is possible for a soul to join these realms but only according to its "karmic fit" and level of maturity with these realms. These realms are interconnected and interpenetrating and a soul may have already developed structures integrated in certain nondual realms on high cognitive levels even during the human life. So, after the human body death they do not "go" somewhere else to "incarnate" there, but simply remain there already integrated. The "incarnational process" is different in those realms and, as I said, there is very little information on that process in the sacred texts of nondual traditions, and they are supposed to be kept secret anyway.

So yes, there is a conceivable point in the future where "the Earthly matrix should also be integrated" within the structures of the nondual realms. But at this point it is very far from being a reality. As I said, the souls that are already strong and mature in their nondual realization can and do incarnate on Earth to facilitate this process while maintaining their integration with higher-level nondual realms. But because the dualistic cognitive and perceptional patterns at this point are so deeply ingrained in the human culture and collective karmic subconscious, and therefore so strongly contagious, it is more efficient for less mature souls to "quarantine" themselves from human form and continue their integration and healing process in the nondual realms with a possibility of returning when they become mature enough for the "bodhisattva" missions.

[Stranger]

independent, responsibility-free soul-evolution

If you are talking to me, I never suggested that. If you noticed, I'm only talking about integration into the nondual structures and responsibly following their curvature of evolution, while disconnecting ourselves from dualistic structures and their anti-evolutionary curvatures.

All we can do here is try and plant seeds which the Spirit can nourish, as it so Wills, so that as few souls as possible are caught completely blind-sided by what's actually taking place, whether they are aware of it or not, and therefore have the noble opportunity to consciously participate in the creative evolution.

Correct, but as a suggestion, you would have much better success in promoting this process if you would present the Anthroposophical teachings and practices in a non-sectarian way. By doing it in a sectarian way you are actually doing a disservice to the Steiner's original intention, because it diverts people away from Anthroposophy rather than attracts them.

[AshvinP]

independent, responsibility-free soul-evolution

If you are talking to me, I never suggested that. If you noticed, I'm only talking about integration into the nondual structures and responsibly following their curvature of evolution, while disconnecting ourselves from dualistic structures and their anti-evolutionary curvatures.

All we can do here is try and plant seeds which the Spirit can nourish, as it so Wills, so that as few souls as possible are caught completely blind-sided by what's actually taking place, whether they are aware of it or not, and therefore have the noble opportunity to consciously participate in the creative evolution.

Correct, but as a suggestion, you would have much better success in promoting this process if you would present the Anthroposophical teachings and practices in a non-sectarian way. By doing it in a sectarian way you are actually doing a disservice to the Steiner's original intention, because it diverts people away from Anthroposophy rather than attracts them.

Thanks for the suggestion, but no, we wouldn't. What you call "promoting" and "success", I call outward-facing materialistic measure of self-worth, mostly rooted in a need for attention, popularity, status, etc. during incarnate life. It sacrifices genuine spiritual seeking of the Kingdom, which always leads into unfamiliar and uncomfortable territory, for the convenient and prideful ways of the world. What you call "sectarian", I call the rigorous and logical seeking of spiritual Truth, even if it leads to avenues which are in opposition to personalized interests, preferences and feelings, which it no doubt will lead, since the genuine spiritual goes beyond the personal sphere to the interrelated, interdependent Earthly and Cosmic spheres. Like I already said, we can preach about compassion, equality, integration, abstractly all day, or complain abstractly about sectarian, dictatorial, etc., pretending we have done our duty while we maintain the 'separate me' in our personal preferences and theories projected onto the higher worlds, or we can make the personal sacrifices necessary to actually bring about those ideals through our creative transformation and evolution on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Once we develop our living consciousness of life across the threshold of sleep-death, we won't force our interests and goals to remain constrained to those of popular culture and intellectual academia, but will know that there is a higher Wisdom at work through our humble, unassuming actions on places such as this forum, which takes the long view of what's best for the Cosmic organism as a whole, rather than our splintered 'nondual' interest group.

[Stranger]

Thanks for the suggestion, but no, we wouldn't. What you call "promoting" and "success", I call outward-facing materialistic measure of self-worth, mostly rooted in a need for attention, popularity, status, etc. during incarnate life. It sacrifices genuine spiritual seeking of the Kingdom, which always leads into unfamiliar and uncomfortable territory, for the convenient and prideful ways of the world. What you call "sectarian", I call the rigorous and logical seeking of spiritual Truth, even if it leads to avenues which are in opposition to personalized interests, preferences and feelings, which it no doubt will lead, since the genuine spiritual goes beyond the personal sphere to the interrelated, interdependent Earthly and Cosmic spheres. Like I already said, we can preach about compassion, equality, integration, abstractly all day, or complain abstractly about sectarian, dictatorial, etc., pretending we have done our duty while we maintain the 'separate me' in our personal preferences and theories projected onto the higher worlds, or we can make the personal sacrifices necessary to actually bring about those ideals through our creative transformation and evolution on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Once we develop our living consciousness of life across the threshold of sleep-death, we won't force our interests and goals to remain constrained to those of popular culture and intellectual academia, but will know that there is a higher Wisdom at work through our humble, unassuming actions on places such as this forum, which takes the long view of what's best for the Cosmic organism as a whole, rather than our splintered 'nondual' interest group.

Fine, you made your choice, but count me out, I do not support totalitarian/sectarian ways of spiritual development. Integrating with higher-order nondual beings is not submission to them and their discipline, but it is free collaboration assuming appropriate responsibilities and roles. Self-discipline and self-sacrifice come from spiritual practice and understanding that such sacrifice of anti-evolutionary elements of soul's structures is necessary for the successful evolution of the soul on individual and collective levels, but this self-sacrifice is not of submissive or hierarchically enforced nature, it is free and conscious undertaking of responsibility. It is like a volunteering work that we do here in human domain. If you would actually know these nondual beings by having spiritual contact with them, you would also know their delicate and non-dominating character. They are always straight and truth-telling, but never in a dominating way, just like Jesus was treating people. On the opposite, the hierarchies of dualistic beings on all levels are typically of dominating, disciplinarian, totalitarian, sectarian or a military-kind structure intolerant to any noncompliance. So, if we see such hierarchical structure, whether in the human or in discarnate realms, it is a sure sign that it belongs to the dualistic realm, even though they may claim and present themselves as "nondual". There are and have been in fact many quasi-spiritual totalitarian sects claiming themselves as "nondual", such as Osho, Adida, Nome and so on.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4)

And how do we know if the spirits are of God? Here is the sure sign:

Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am gentle (meek) and humble (lowly) in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (Matthew 11:29)