Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
Stranger
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:26 pm

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Stranger »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:54 pm We should strive to make our lives more and more perfect imitations of the sacrificial Christ nature which brings the Divine potential to concrete manifestation on Earth.
Correct, this is the ideal. but it will never happen until we go through the complete transformative/metamorphic stage of the nondual realization and sacrifice not just some of our egoic preferences/desires, but the whole package of the dualistic perception and the ego-complex. St. Paul did not say "there is a little bit of "me" living in me, and a little bit of Christ living in me", but he said "not I anymore, but Christ lives in me". This is because we are still in the dualistic state and Christ is in nondual state. We will never integrate into a shared state of consciousness with him and the rest of nondual high-order beings until we ourselves transcend from dualistic into nondual state.

But there are two stages or ways to approach this ideal. One is to undertake a complete sacrifice and transcend into the full nondual realization of "not I anymore, but Christ lives in me" in this lifetime. This is quite an extreme undertaking and not for everyone. Or we can do it gradually over many lifetimes and postpone the complete transcendence into the nondual state for some indefinite time and in the meantime just go through a slow evolution and of making small sacrifices of our egoic tendencies until we become ready for the complete metamorphosis, which is still very good and surely better than doing nothing. In other words, Christ is in the "butterfly" spiritual state and we are still in the "worm" state. No matter how much the worm improves its structures and sacrifices its "wormic" tendencies, it can never become the butterfly unless it undergoes the metamorphic phase of chrysalis and transforms into a butterfly. "Butterfly" and "worm" is not about physical form, but about the spiritual state of the psyche)
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5501
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by AshvinP »

Stranger wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:24 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:54 pm We should strive to make our lives more and more perfect imitations of the sacrificial Christ nature which brings the Divine potential to concrete manifestation on Earth.
Correct, this is the ideal. but it will never happen until we go through the complete transformative/metamorphic stage of the nondual realization and sacrifice not just some of our egoic preferences/desires, but the whole package of the dualistic perception and the ego-complex. St. Paul did not say "there is a little bit of "me" living in me, and a little bit of Christ living in me", but he said "not I anymore, but Christ lives in me". This is because we are still in the dualistic state and Christ is in nondual state. We will never integrate into a shared state of consciousness with him and the rest of nondual high-order beings until we ourselves transcend from dualistic into nondual state.

But there are two stages or ways to approach this ideal. One is to undertake a complete sacrifice and transcend into the full nondual realization of "not I anymore, but Christ lives in me" in this lifetime. This is quite an extreme undertaking and not for everyone. Or we can do it gradually over many lifetimes and postpone the complete transcendence into the nondual state for some indefinite time and in the meantime just go through a slow evolution and of making small sacrifices of our egoic tendencies until we become ready for the complete metamorphosis, which is still very good and surely better than doing nothing. In other words, Christ is in the "butterfly" spiritual state and we are still in the "worm" state. No matter how much the worm improves its structures and sacrifices its "wormic" tendencies, it can never become the butterfly unless it undergoes the metamorphic phase of chrysalis and transforms into a butterfly. "Butterfly" and "worm" is not about physical form, but about the spiritual state of the psyche)

Does it really make sense there is a binary opposition with some line at which dual state becomes nondual state? At what point of our sacrificing egoic desires, preferences, etc. do we suddenly awaken as the butterfly in pure nondual Christ state? Is it only the "sense-idea of separate me" which needs to be sacrificed for this to happen?

If someone were to accomplish in one lifetime what the average person attains over their entire Karmic stream on Earth, then they would know all the living incarnational details mentioned previously. All the stuff Cleric mentioned about the concrete, interfering influences within our body-soul-spirit existence of the spirits of the Zodiac, planetary spheres, Earth kingdoms, etc. would be known in all its detail. Do you feel like you or anyone you know is close to that now?
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
User avatar
Cleric K
Posts: 1660
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:40 pm

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Cleric K »

Stranger wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:24 pm Correct, this is the ideal. but it will never happen until we go through the complete transformative/metamorphic stage of the nondual realization and sacrifice not just some of our egoic preferences/desires, but the whole package of the dualistic perception and the ego-complex. St. Paul did not say "there is a little bit of "me" living in me, and a little bit of Christ living in me", but he said "not I anymore, but Christ lives in me". This is because we are still in the dualistic state and Christ is in nondual state. We will never integrate into a shared state of consciousness with him and the rest of nondual high-order beings until we ourselves transcend from dualistic into nondual state.

But there are two stages or ways to approach this ideal. One is to undertake a complete sacrifice and transcend into the full nondual realization of "not I anymore, but Christ lives in me" in this lifetime. This is quite an extreme undertaking and not for everyone. Or we can do it gradually over many lifetimes and postpone the complete transcendence into the nondual state for some indefinite time and in the meantime just go through a slow evolution and of making small sacrifices of our egoic tendencies until we become ready for the complete metamorphosis, which is still very good and surely better than doing nothing. In other words, Christ is in the "butterfly" spiritual state and we are still in the "worm" state. No matter how much the worm improves its structures and sacrifices its "wormic" tendencies, it can never become the butterfly unless it undergoes the metamorphic phase of chrysalis and transforms into a butterfly. "Butterfly" and "worm" is not about physical form, but about the spiritual state of the psyche)
I think it is getting clearer that in all cases we have to enter into the concrete details of oneness. Otherwise, when we try to place orthogonal demarcation lines, we very easily arrive at the conflicting situations, where we miss the concrete path of development because we imagine that it is enough to surrender our ego to the Christ in order to transcend the Earthly realm after death.

Let’s look at an example through which we can understand in much greater concreteness what the sacrifice of our human-scale personality really involves. Few posts ago you said that the path of spiritual-scientific development is too addicted to the dualistic self and can’t even conceive what it means for the self to be One with everything. Actually, it is precisely through entering into the concrete details that we can really appreciate that in its full significance.

The ancient Hindus knew very well that our temporal existence manifests through rhythmic metamorphoses. There are periods of manifestation, differentiation of the spiritual potential – called Manvantara – and periods of dissolution where the manifested reality sinks in a kind of Cosmic sleep – Pralaya. Of course, in the old times these things were known in a much more dreamlike consciousness, while today we have to understand in all lucidity how our thinking spirit is embedded within these rhythmic unfoldings.

The Hindus also knew that after our Solar environment passes through Pralaya, it will emerge once again yet in a different, more spiritual form. In esoteric science this future aeon is called Jupiter.

Now it is very interesting to trace what this reincarnation of our Solar system means for our individual evolutionary worldlines. If we believe that our souls are some fundamental units of being, we may believe that in the next aeon, after the Cosmic sleep, we’ll continue our soul journey in a similar way. And in certain sense this is true, yet with one major caveat.

Man in the next aeon will be a new being. As the Jupiter stage is re-created from the spiritual potential it is like the evolutionary journey is recapitulated. An interesting example of such recapitulation can be observed in the way the human embryo quickly passes through its evolutionary stages. In the early stages it is difficult to distinguish human embryo from fish embryo, then from amphibian, from mammalian (remember that we have a tail that is then reabsorbed). But while other animal forms stop at a certain stage, the human being continues to its human form.

On Jupiter man evolves once again to his fully conscious state but in a different environment. There is no rigid mineral world, reality is of Imaginative nature. But this new man is now at a different ‘scale’ so to speak. It is similar to what the Angelic beings are today.

Now the critical point, however, is that when we reach self-consciousness again at that stage, we’ll be able to remember the Earthly aeon but there’s something very peculiar. That new man won’t be able to say for example “In the Earthly aeon I went through this and this incarnation. In one particular incarnation I was called Eugene.” This is very significant. There’s no one-to-one ‘mapping’ between the future man in the next aeon and our present man-unit. Instead, the future man feels himself as if he was already present in the Earthly aeon but was not fully conscious. But the interesting thing is that that man lived in whole groups of human beings, very roughly analogously to the way our “I” lives in the group of cells of our body.

This is something very important and very little attention is given to these things in popular spirituality, where it’s often imagined that the soul-atoms are something eternal and that even very far into the future we’ll feel as the same soul-unit and we’ll be able to trace our personal incarnations.

The truth however is that this scale of soul-unit is specific to the Earthly aeon. These things are so interesting and so much can be understood even if we apply normal logic. Let’s try to see what all this means.

Practically, at this moment, everything we do, feel and think has significance not only for our Earthly aeon worldline. Instead, we’re co-creating the man of the future. This is a collective work. As a rough analogy, the different existences of different Earthly ensouled beings, form something like unique spiritual organs of the future man.

It is necessary that we conceive of this higher man, as something that exists even at this moment in its germinal beginnings. But more importantly, we have to conceive of that being as something independent from our human-scale sense of self. It penetrates our being, we share one essence, it secretly attracts our becoming, yet there’s no strict one-to-one correspondence between our sense of “I”-unit and that of the higher man. The reason is that this being lives in other souls too. We can’t simply say “I’m that higher being” because what about the other souls? If everyone claims that they are the higher being, a fight will ensue. For this reason, the proper attitude is to have clear consciousness that that being lives in its germinal beginnings and acts as attractor of our evolutionary worldline and at the same time we’re collectively responsible for that being because after Pralaya it will evolve out of the karma that we have collectively weaved.

There are many more things than can be said but I just wanted to point out this particular thing. I don’t think we have gone in the depth of these questions here on the forum before. It’s not even necessary to believe in this, nor does it require some very deep meditation. It’s enough to start by reflecting on such questions. As said, very much can be understood even by simply thinking about these things.

The reason I decided to go into this was to show that gaining deeper and more concrete understanding about these things not only doesn’t lock us into duality but in fact challenges our conception of a self in ways that no generalized idea of oneness can.

Why is this important? Because it helps us see the true magnitude of the work in which – even without knowing it – each one of us is involved. If we place all our focus on transcending duality, we’re completely oblivious about the fact that we secretly absolutize our Earth aeon soul atom. We completely neglect that our future being is weaved of our collective efforts. Our collective karma will grow into the future human-Angelic forms. When we meditate and reach glimpses of the higher perspective then we don’t feel as if we simply have transcended our dual self and can continue our worldline in the nondual worlds but in our expanding consciousness we cognize precisely the collective work that must be done together with our brothers and sisters.

It is obvious that a much greater degree of sacrifice is needed here. Denying our self in order to surrender into Christ is the easy part. It’s easy because we secretly preserve the scale of our soul. We still can look back and find one-to-one mapping between our transcendent state and the lives we have gone through. But working for our future selves requires a much greater degree of self-denial and humility, simply because we’re working not for our strictly own future form but for one into which the Spirit won’t be able to say “I was Eugene in the previous aeon” but will say “I lived together with Eugene, with Ashvin and many others. The virtues and qualities that we collectively cultivated are now the riverbed through which I flow.”

Thus we see that with deeper understanding we not simply satisfy some curiosity about how reality works but we also understand how interrelated things are and how we should fully consciously work in line with these developments.
Stranger
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:26 pm

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Stranger »

AshvinP wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:36 pm Does it really make sense there is a binary opposition with some line at which dual state becomes nondual state? At what point of our sacrificing egoic desires, preferences, etc. do we suddenly awaken as the butterfly in pure nondual Christ state? Is it only the "sense-idea of separate me" which needs to be sacrificed for this to happen?
Oh no, that transitional "pupa" period takes quite a while, at best one but at most many lifetimes, and there are many sages involved, the sacrifice of the "separate-me" sense is only one of the initial steps. I wrote about some of the steps that I'm aware of in many posts on this forum before but I'm not a spiritual guide on this path as I am myself is rather a beginner.

If someone were to accomplish in one lifetime what the average person attains over their entire Karmic stream on Earth, then they would know all the living incarnational details mentioned previously. All the stuff Cleric mentioned about the concrete, interfering influences within our body-soul-spirit existence of the spirits of the Zodiac, planetary spheres, Earth kingdoms, etc. would be known in all its detail. Do you feel like you or anyone you know is close to that now?
As I said, that part of "horizontal" integration (according to the Cleric's scheme) still has to be accomplished, the nondual realization (the "vertical" integration) does not make a person omniscient with respect to structural knowledge. I'm not aware of any such people with the full knowledge that you mentioned. The only thing I'm saying is that for the all-encompassing integration both "horizontal" and "vertical" integrations need to be included and worked on.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
Stranger
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:26 pm

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Stranger »

Cleric K wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:24 pm Why is this important? Because it helps us see the true magnitude of the work in which – even without knowing it – each one of us is involved. If we place all our focus on transcending duality, we’re completely oblivious about the fact that we secretly absolutize our Earth aeon soul atom. We completely neglect that our future being is weaved of our collective efforts. Our collective karma will grow into the future human-Angelic forms. When we meditate and reach glimpses of the higher perspective then we don’t feel as if we simply have transcended our dual self and can continue our worldline in the nondual worlds but in our expanding consciousness we cognize precisely the collective work that must be done together with our brothers and sisters.
As I said many times, I'm not suggesting to place all our focus on transcending duality, we should work on both horizontal and vertical integration simultaneously. It is possible to live in the Earth domain in a Earthly body and have higher levels of cognition abiding in nondual realms with both in full harmony, but that will require some restructuring of the human cognitive structures.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5501
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by AshvinP »

Stranger wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:10 am
AshvinP wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:36 pm Does it really make sense there is a binary opposition with some line at which dual state becomes nondual state? At what point of our sacrificing egoic desires, preferences, etc. do we suddenly awaken as the butterfly in pure nondual Christ state? Is it only the "sense-idea of separate me" which needs to be sacrificed for this to happen?
Oh no, that transitional "pupa" period takes quite a while, at best one but at most many lifetimes, and there are many sages involved, the sacrifice of the "separate-me" sense is only one of the initial steps. I wrote about some of the steps that I'm aware of in many posts on this forum before but I'm not a spiritual guide on this path as I am myself is rather a beginner.

If someone were to accomplish in one lifetime what the average person attains over their entire Karmic stream on Earth, then they would know all the living incarnational details mentioned previously. All the stuff Cleric mentioned about the concrete, interfering influences within our body-soul-spirit existence of the spirits of the Zodiac, planetary spheres, Earth kingdoms, etc. would be known in all its detail. Do you feel like you or anyone you know is close to that now?
As I said, that part of "horizontal" integration (according to the Cleric's scheme) still has to be accomplished, the nondual realization (the "vertical" integration) does not make a person omniscient with respect to structural knowledge. I'm not aware of any such people with the full knowledge that you mentioned. The only thing I'm saying is that for the all-encompassing integration both "horizontal" and "vertical" integrations need to be included and worked on.

So in the context of Cleric's post, once the first sacrificial way of full nondual realization in this lifetime was reached by a soul, thus making further Earthly incarnations unnecessary, would there be any memory of previous incarnations as 'Eugene', or whomever else?
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Stranger
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:26 pm

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Stranger »

AshvinP wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:53 am So in the context of Cleric's post, once the first sacrificial way of full nondual realization in this lifetime was reached by a soul, thus making further Earthly incarnations unnecessary, would there be any memory of previous incarnations as 'Eugene', or whomever else?
Memories of previous incarnations are retained, they are important learning lessons. Further Earthly incarnations are never necessary, whether before or after nondual realization, but before the realization they usually still happen.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
User avatar
AshvinP
Posts: 5501
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:00 am
Location: USA

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by AshvinP »

Stranger wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:12 am
AshvinP wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:53 am So in the context of Cleric's post, once the first sacrificial way of full nondual realization in this lifetime was reached by a soul, thus making further Earthly incarnations unnecessary, would there be any memory of previous incarnations as 'Eugene', or whomever else?
Memories of previous incarnations are retained, they are important learning lessons. Further Earthly incarnations are never necessary, whether before or after nondual realization, but before the realization they usually still happen.

Ok well that means the soul-unit sense of "me" is still being retained, it hasn't been sacrificed towards the pursuit of
the Divine Self, Oneness. What are your thoughts on Cleric's discussion of the germinal Jupiter aeon - regardless of whether you agree with it, or think such things can be known/confirmed, did you follow the logic of it? In other words, if this completely new human-Angelic sense of individuated existence is possible, do you see why that means there is still even more Earthly personality to sacrifice in what you are calling the state of nondual realization? We aren't at the question of even whether it is possible yet, only the implications IF it is possible. The possibility and knowability questions can be pursued once these implications are clear.
"A secret law contrives,
To give time symmetry:
There is, within our lives,
An exact mystery."
Stranger
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2022 2:26 pm

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by Stranger »

AshvinP wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:31 pm Ok well that means the soul-unit sense of "me" is still being retained, it hasn't been sacrificed towards the pursuit of
the Divine Self, Oneness.
When you sacrifice a certain egoic preference and completely dissolve its karmic pattern, do you completely erase it from memory? Do you forget what you did when you previously acted according to that preference? Keeping the history in memory is not the same as retaining the karmic pattern of it the functional structures of psyche. We should never erase the memories of our egoic and dualistic life because they are important lessons, they form our immunity to the egoic-dualistic state of consciousness so that we never fall to it again. If we forget, the Lucifer (=Demiurge) will have a chance to convince us again to taste the "apple of good and evil".
What are your thoughts on Cleric's discussion of the germinal Jupiter aeon - regardless of whether you agree with it, or think such things can be known/confirmed, did you follow the logic of it? In other words, if this completely new human-Angelic sense of individuated existence is possible, do you see why that means there is still even more Earthly personality to sacrifice in what you are calling the state of nondual realization? We aren't at the question of even whether it is possible yet, only the implications IF it is possible. The possibility and knowability questions can be pursued once these implications are clear.
I think it is too early to discuss so distant future. The key is: that eon is the eon of nondual existence where the beings exist in a shared nondual state of consciousness as Oneness. So, it will not happen until each of us will take responsibility to transcend into the nondual state from the dualistic state in which we currently exist.
"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop" Rumi
lorenzop
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:29 pm

Re: Meditation exercise on "separate me"

Post by lorenzop »

Cleric K wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:24 pm I think it is getting clearer that in all cases we have to enter into the concrete details of oneness.
Experiences of non duality\the spirit\transcendant etc. . . . peoples of different traditions and backgrounds will tend to describe it differently. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists will all tend to use words and phrases from their traditions.
Even Lutherans may have a different report than Catholics.
Someone with buttressed beliefs in a heirarchy of spiritual beings and a World Content may find these to be there as well.
An atheist steeped in Existentialism may find a conversion to the Divine, or may describe this oneness as an experience of terror.
We should expect any and all words be used to describe oneness.
For someone well established in this oneness, it is a simple and honest way to live, at its essence it is 'Fullness\Unboundedness\Freedom' and whatever else one brings to it. If one wishes to play the violin, or tend to one's children or garden, or sell vacuum cleaners . . . go for it.
To those here in this forum who wish to investigate higher spiritual beings, or a realm of meaning, or full realization Christ, etc. . . I truly think that is great. It's not my cup of tea . . . and it is an error to suggest to others that to pursue such inclinations are required.
None of these wishes and preferences (details) are required, our only spiritual duty is establishment of 'Fullness\Unboundedness\Freedom', and this does not require accepting this or that philosophy, or reading this book or that book.
Post Reply