The Nature of the sensory world or do we really *know* the ultimate ground of reality?

[Stranger]

It's interesting how there are accusations of 'being dualistic' tossed around, back and forth, as if 'being dualistic' is an insult or perhaps a curse.
Truth is - in spiritual growth, duality is not squashed, reduced or destroyed. We simply add a second element, we add Unboundedness\Transcendant\Oneness\God's Love\Christ or whatever word or phrase we like at the moment.
Incorperating this Oneness, naturally living this Oneness, reduces the errors and unpleasantness that living as a seperate self incurs. There will always be a tasty patina of duality, and supporting this duality, is a permeating Oneness, naturally lived not as a feeling but as an identity.
So, when is the best time to add this second element, when do we become eligible? Right now. You have been given everything you need to get this done.

You are right, it is a gradual process, it starts as "me" experiencing the world of duality and gradually opening to and allowing the Oneness to permeate into our life, and at some point there is an "inversion" starting to occur where the perceptual perspective shifts upside down and it starts to become an experience of Oneness experiencing the world still with all those senses of "me" and "objects" until even that is sacrificed and dissolved and what is left is only Oneness expressing and experiencing itself everywhere in this diversity of structures and forms with no actual separation.

[lorenzop]

Agreed, I'm OK wih the use of word 'sacrificing' in this case, though it is a more of Judea\Christian notion, or for monks who like to live in chains. For the typical human being, one only needs to infuse more Oneness - and everything falls into place - and also a hankering for liberation to speed things up.

[AshvinP]

Agreed, I'm OK wih the use of word 'sacrificing' in this case, though it is a more of Judea\Christian notion, or for monks who like to live in chains. For the typical human being, one only needs to infuse more Oneness - and everything falls into place - and also a hankering for liberation to speed things up.

What specifically within "everything" has fallen into place for you, Lorenzo?

[Federica]

It's interesting how there are accusations of 'being dualistic' tossed around, back and forth, as if 'being dualistic' is an insult or perhaps a curse.
Truth is - in spiritual growth, duality is not squashed, reduced or destroyed. We simply add a second element, we add Unboundedness\Transcendant\Oneness\God's Love\Christ or whatever word or phrase we like at the moment.
Incorperating this Oneness, naturally living this Oneness, reduces the errors and unpleasantness that living as a seperate self incurs. There will always be a tasty patina of duality, and supporting this duality, is a permeating Oneness, naturally lived not as a feeling but as an identity.
So, when is the best time to add this second element, when do we become eligible? Right now. You have been given everything you need to get this done.

You are right, it is a gradual process, it starts as "me" experiencing the world of duality and gradually opening to and allowing the Oneness to permeate into our life, and at some point there is an "inversion" starting to occur where the perceptual perspective shifts upside down and it starts to become an experience of Oneness experiencing the world still with all those senses of "me" and "objects" until even that is sacrificed and dissolved and what is left is only Oneness expressing and experiencing itself everywhere in this diversity of structures and forms with no actual separation.

Eugene, I thought the patina of duality that will always be, and the Oneness that supports duality would make you hit the ceiling

[Cleric]

You are right, it is a gradual process, it starts as "me" experiencing the world of duality and gradually opening to and allowing the Oneness to permeate into our life, and at some point there is an "inversion" starting to occur where the perceptual perspective shifts upside down and it starts to become an experience of Oneness experiencing the world still with all those senses of "me" and "objects" until even that is sacrificed and dissolved and what is left is only Oneness expressing and experiencing itself everywhere in this diversity of structures and forms with no actual separation.

Eugene, can you describe an encounter with another realized being? We have agreed that the state of Oneness doesn't mean solipsism. There are still relative perspectives of the One Spirit. So you meet that realized being and you look it in the eye, so to speak. What is the healthy inner attitude towards that being? I'm not speaking about the attitude towards our sensory perceptions of the being but towards the living spirit which thinks, speaks and gesticulates. When you speak to that being to whom you send your words? Do you feel that your thoughts and words radiate outwards into the world? Or that would be a dual illusion so you speak as you would speak to yourself because the other person shares your enlightened subjectivity, so it would be illusionary to send your thoughts and words beyond your conscious horizon?

[Stranger]

Eugene, can you describe an encounter with another realized being? We have agreed that the state of Oneness doesn't mean solipsism. There are still relative perspectives of the One Spirit. So you meet that realized being and you look it in the eye, so to speak. What is the healthy inner attitude towards that being? I'm not speaking about the attitude towards our sensory perceptions of the being but towards the living spirit which thinks, speaks and gesticulates. When you speak to that being to whom you send your words? Do you feel that your thoughts and words radiate outwards into the world? Or that would be a dual illusion so you speak as you would speak to yourself because the other person shares your enlightened subjectivity, so it would be illusionary to send your thoughts and words beyond your conscious horizon?

The fact that it is the same subjectivity does not mean that there is instant and full communication between the individuated activities of the same subjectivity. So, the communication still needs to be performed by whatever means are appropriate if needed (it may be by words or telepathically or it can be through shared states of consciousness).

I understand your question: how come if there is only one subjectivity, there is no or very little common shared experiences between individuated activities of the same subjectivity that we experience in our human lives. This is because one subjectivity does not mean a common content of experience. As an analogy, consider yourself as a subjectivity during the daytime, and yourself during nighttime dream: in the dream you do not remember anything about the content of your daytime experience, so the communication between the daytime content and dream content is very limited, but it is still the same subjectivity. So, the same happens between individuated activities of the same subjectivity (souls).

[Stranger]

Eugene, I thought the patina of duality that will always be, and the Oneness that supports duality would make you hit the ceiling

I think you are conflating diversity with duality. Oneness always supports and expresses itself through the diversity of forms, structures and individuated spiritual activities, so it is not a limitation. Duality is when we, individuated spiritual activities of Oneness, divide the world of forms in our mind into a multiplicity of separated subjects and objects and perceive ourselves as a "separate me" experiencing other subjects and objects and acting in the world of other subjects and objects as if they exist separately from us. Oneness does not support duality, but allows it to happen and likewise allows it to end.

[Cleric]

The fact that it is the same subjectivity does not mean that there is instant and full communication between the individuated activities of the same subjectivity. So, the communication still needs to be performed by whatever means are appropriate if needed (it may be by words or telepathically or it can be through shared states of consciousness).

I understand your question: how come if there is only one subjectivity, there is no or very little common shared experiences between individuated activities of the same subjectivity that we experience in our human lives. This is because one subjectivity does not mean a common content of experience. As an analogy, consider yourself as a subjectivity during the daytime, and yourself during nighttime dream: in the dream you do not remember anything about the content of your daytime experience, so the communication between the daytime content and dream content is very limited, but it is still the same subjectivity. So, the same happens between individuated activities of the same subjectivity (souls).

Yes but this doesn't address the question directly. The difference is that my states of sleeping and waking are alternating but you can confront the other being in real time. And I'm not speaking simply of the fact that you can communicate with that being. You can communicate with ChatGPT too. The question is how do you relate with the innermost spiritual essence of that being. How do you reconcile Oneness with the fact that you're looking at a spiritual being in the eye (again, this is meant in the deeper sense, not in sensory) and that being thinks something independently of you and conveys it to you. Or let me state it thus: would you be able to support your meditative state of Oneness while you're confronted with that being? Or you would rather say that the being acts as a distraction and only breaks your state of Oneness because now you're confronted with something living, the source of whose activity you don't find within your own subjectivity?

[Stranger]

Yes but this doesn't address the question directly. The difference is that my states of sleeping and waking are alternating but you can confront the other being in real time. And I'm not speaking simply of the fact that you can communicate with that being. You can communicate with ChatGPT too. The question is how do you relate with the innermost spiritual essence of that being. How do you reconcile Oneness with the fact that you're looking at a spiritual being in the eye (again, this is meant in the deeper sense, not in sensory) and that being thinks something independently of you and conveys it to you. Or let me state it thus: would you be able to support your meditative state of Oneness while you're confronted with that being? Or you would rather say that the being acts as a distraction and only breaks your state of Oneness because now you're confronted with something living, the source of whose activity you don't find within your own subjectivity?

When the state of Oneness becomes stable, communications with other beings does not distract it in any way. Rather, you sense the same Oneness/subjectivity experiencing and acting in the other being even though that being in its current state of mind may not realize that and thinks of themselves as a separate subject/self. But this of course only happens when the state/experience of Oneness becomes more-or-less stable. On initial stages you can usually only experience Oneness during meditation/prayer and then lose it in daytime activities, distractions and communications with other people. It takes time and persistent efforts for this state to become stable and mature. Also, you cannot make yourself experience Oneness, it comes by itself when you are open and ready for it. I think Jesus described it very precisely: "The Spirit breathes where he will, and you hear his voice, but you do not know from where he comes and where he goes; thus is everyone who is born from The Spirit" (John 3)

[Federica]

Eugene, I thought the patina of duality that will always be, and the Oneness that supports duality would make you hit the ceiling

I think you are conflating diversity with duality. Oneness always supports and expresses itself through the diversity of forms, structures and individuated spiritual activities, so it is not a limitation. Duality is when we, individuated spiritual activities of Oneness, divide the world of forms in our mind into a multiplicity of separated subjects and objects and perceive ourselves as a "separate me" experiencing other subjects and objects and acting in the world of other subjects and objects as if they exist separately from us. Oneness does not support duality, but allows it to happen and likewise allows it to end.

it's not about what I am conflating or not conflating, it's about what Lorenzo stated and how you intepreted it. So he writes duality, and you read diversity.... why not, after all