Anthroposophy as Fascio

[Cleric]

Alright, time to wrap up, I think we arrived at a pretty clear understanding of what anthropology is ontologically based upon. It is essentially an ontology of Platonic pantheism: the whole World is and only is an Idea cognizable by reason (which is apparently also only an idea). It is essentially atheistic, there is no God-creator of the World and no consciousness (other than perhaps an idea of consciousness).

It is also very misleading that anthroposophy appeals to Christ and Buddha and their messages. Nowhere they ever mentioned that the world is only an idea. The message of Christ is clearly a theism, a premise of God-the-Father-Creator.

There is no way I would subscribe to this ontology, it makes no sense to me. I know as a fact of my direct experience that I AM and that I am conscious, that I AM consciousness that creates and lucidly experiences all kinds of conscious phenomena: ideas, precepts, feelings, imaginations etc (and not all of them are only ideas). And no esoteric teaching can ever convince me that this is not true and that my direct experience that I am conscious is an abstraction or illusion. Essentially it is no different from hard-nosed materialist Dan Dennet's claim that consciousness is an illusion. Our view, in philosophical terms, is cosmopsychism - the ontology of Cosmic Consciousness, and it is based on the undeniable fact of direct first-person experience that I AM conscious.

Eugene, it saddens me when a person with your potential gets swayed by emotions and releases something like the above, which I won't even comment. Basically your last several posts are a crashing relapse into the mood that you yourself had meticulously grown out of in the past months and years. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful we can resume our investigations when you get sober.

[Stranger]

Eugene, it saddens me when a person with your potential gets swayed by emotions and releases something like the above, which I won't even comment. Basically your last several posts are a crashing relapse into the mood that you yourself had meticulously grown out of in the past months and years. Nevertheless, I'm hopeful we can resume our investigations when you get sober.

That had nothing to do with any emotions, that was only a statement about clear and direct experiential knowledge of who I AM that no "esoteric" teaching can ever cancel. It was just a final clear realization of what anthropology is actually teaching behind all its massive amount of vague highly intellectualized esoteric texts and practices.

[AshvinP]

And all you claims that the WC needs to be known as inner first-person experience does not make it to make any more sense. Yeah, all ideas can be known from first-person perspective, but then what is THAT which knows them? Or is it the idea that knows itself (what a nonsense!)? Look into your direct first-person experience: what is it that knows all ideas appearing in your first-person experience? How is THAT which thinks and knows the ideas can itself be an idea? Who are you? That question entirely evades you.

By the way, the answer to these questions are clearly revealed to us from a first-person phenomenology of thinking (spiritual activity), if we are simply willing to put in the effort like others here have done and are doing. It is thinking which knows all that appears in first-person experience (not to be reduced to only normal discursive thinking). There is no "me" who thinks, but I AM thinking activity. We are verbs, not nouns. All attempts to arbitrarily add some other transcendent "THAT" which thinks and knows is abstraction intended to avoid the intimate processual flow of first-person thinking activity which, if traced back carefully, leads us into the very heart of our soul-constellation, which is the last place most people want to look for understandable reasons. That's why great courage and trust in the high ideals of our evolving Earthly-Human existence is vital.

[Stranger]

By the way, the answer to these questions are clearly revealed to us from a first-person phenomenology of thinking (spiritual activity), if we are simply willing to put in the effort like others here have done and are doing. It is thinking which knows all that appears in first-person experience (not to be reduced to only normal discursive thinking). There is no "me" who thinks, but I AM thinking activity. We are verbs, not nouns. All attempts to arbitrarily add some other transcendent "THAT" which thinks and knows is abstraction intended to avoid the intimate processual flow of first-person thinking activity which, if traced back carefully, leads us into the very heart of our soul-constellation, which is the last place most people want to look for understandable reasons. That's why great courage and trust in the high ideals of our evolving Earthly-Human existence is vital.

You are right, it is more like a verb rather that a noun. Referring to THAT (as a noun) was just a practical way to explain it in some more comprehensible terms. Either way, any description of it with ideas, whether using nouns or verbs, is only an approximate reflection and can never be entirely accurate and comprehensive. But the key is that it is not only Thinking, limiting it to Thinking only would be a deception. It can be more appropriately described as Being-Experiencing-Thinking (with all verbs), and this is what we call "Consciousness". All ideas and forms and all of the World content, including Earthly-Human existence and all soul-constellations and what's not, are only the temporal creations/manifestations of this B-E-T, but the B-E-T is entirely unconditioned by all of this WC. And B-E-T knows itself directly (through the transcendental Gnosis), not through any of the WC. And also, B-E-T is not an Idea.

There are spiritual forces that want us to continue being bound to the laws and the structures of this specific dualistic world where we find ourselves now. They do not want us to know our fundamental freedom as creative activities of the B-E-T, they do not want us to know that there are other realms of reality not distorted by the dualistic deception. And they try to confuse us with all kinds of made-up secular philosophies and twisted esoteric teachings so that these beliefs would bind us to their structures, because they well know about the power of beliefs.

I hope we are done here, nothing more to discuss.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is thus discerned."
Buddha, Iti. 2.16

[AshvinP]

By the way, the answer to these questions are clearly revealed to us from a first-person phenomenology of thinking (spiritual activity), if we are simply willing to put in the effort like others here have done and are doing. It is thinking which knows all that appears in first-person experience (not to be reduced to only normal discursive thinking). There is no "me" who thinks, but I AM thinking activity. We are verbs, not nouns. All attempts to arbitrarily add some other transcendent "THAT" which thinks and knows is abstraction intended to avoid the intimate processual flow of first-person thinking activity which, if traced back carefully, leads us into the very heart of our soul-constellation, which is the last place most people want to look for understandable reasons. That's why great courage and trust in the high ideals of our evolving Earthly-Human existence is vital.

You are right, it is more like a verb rather that a noun. Referring to THAT (as a noun) was just a practical way to explain it in some more comprehensible terms. Either way, any description of it with ideas, whether using nouns or verbs, is only an approximate reflection and can never be entirely accurate and comprehensive. But the key is that it is not only Thinking, limiting it to Thinking only would be a deception. It can be more appropriately described as Being-Experiencing-Thinking (with all verbs), and this is what we call "Consciousness". All ideas and forms and all of the World content, including Earthly-Human existence and all soul-constellations and what's not, are only the temporal creations/manifestations of this B-E-T, but the B-E-T is entirely unconditioned by all of this WC. And B-E-T knows itself directly (through the transcendental Gnosis), not through any of the WC. And also, B-E-T is not an Idea.

I wasn't questioning your use of words, but the way they function in your system. Your THAT or B-E-T functions as a static noun.

Basically your abstract metaphysical position is identical to what it was a few years ago, before you had considered the phenomenology of cognition, meaning you still haven't considered that phenomenology or understood-experienced it. You add "being-experiencing" because you desperately want there to be a shortcut to the eternal which doesn't require any inner effort, i.e. thinking, just like all other mystical reductionists of the modern age. And none of it can explain why there even is a creation/manifestation of the B-E-T if it 'knows itself directly' and is 'entirely unconditioned' by it, meaning the former is completely unessential and metaphysically orthogonal to it, only serving as an arena for unnecessary and irredeemable evil and suffering.

[Stranger]

I wasn't questioning your use of words, but the way they function in your system. Your THAT or B-E-T functions as a static noun.

Basically your abstract metaphysical position is identical to what it was a few years ago, before you had considered the phenomenology of cognition, meaning you still haven't considered that phenomenology or understood-experienced it. You add "being-experiencing" because you desperately want there to be a shortcut to the eternal which doesn't require any inner effort, i.e. thinking, just like all other mystical reductionists of the modern age.

So, you are saying that Being and Experiencing are abstractions? Don't we know from our direct first-person experience that Thinking also lucidly experiencing/knowing all its activities and manifestations? And that Thinking is also Existing (=Being)? What would it be for Thinking not to be Existing and not to be lucidly Knowing/Experiencing ? This stuff is obvious for an elementary grade student. Why do you have such relentless motivation to reject the obvious?

And none of it can explain why there even is a creation/manifestation of the B-E-T if it 'knows itself directly' and is 'entirely unconditioned' by it, meaning the former is completely unessential and metaphysically orthogonal to it, only serving as an arena for unnecessary and irredeemable evil and suffering.

B-E-T is creating because it can, because it has an inherent ability to do so, why not? B-E-T with its ability to manifest forms is the ontic fundamental, so no explanation of why it has such ability is needed. Yes, it knows itself directly, but there is nothing wrong with creating the worlds of forms too. The problems came though when some of its individuated activities decided to create this matrix of duality where they would function in a dualistic mode forgetting their B-E-T nature and deceiving themselves into believing that they are something different from B-E-T and separate from it, and so they would become bound to the created structures by these beliefs. Roughly, this story was described here. Arguably, there are still valuable lessons to learn from these dualistic experiences, even though it was understood that a lot of suffering would be involved. (Although I don't believe that we can learn anything valuable from deceptions, except for the fact that it is never good to lie and deceive ourselves or others). So, it happened and there is nothing we can do about that, but eventually, when the souls reincarnating in the dualistic realm evolve, become mature enough and learn from the dualistic mode all they need to learn, most of them go back to the nondual mode through the realization and direct knowledge of their B-E-T nature, and from there start another journey but only through nondual manifestations where they never forget their direct knowing/gnosis of their B-E-T nature (since they already acquired a stable immunity to the dualistic mode of thinking and have no more interest in doing that again). Unfortunately, some souls become stuck in the dualistic matrix, believe in its agenda and become its servants and maintainers, and nobody knows for how long they are going to stay there.

[AshvinP]

I wasn't questioning your use of words, but the way they function in your system. Your THAT or B-E-T functions as a static noun.

Basically your abstract metaphysical position is identical to what it was a few years ago, before you had considered the phenomenology of cognition, meaning you still haven't considered that phenomenology or understood-experienced it. You add "being-experiencing" because you desperately want there to be a shortcut to the eternal which doesn't require any inner effort, i.e. thinking, just like all other mystical reductionists of the modern age.

So, you are saying that Being and Experiencing are abstractions? Don't we know from our direct first-person experience that Thinking also lucidly experiencing/knowing all its activities and manifestations? And that Thinking is also Existing (=Being)? What would it be for Thinking not to be Existing and not to be lucidly Knowing/Experiencing ? This stuff is obvious for an elementary grade student. Why do you have such relentless motivation to reject the obvious?

What I am critiquing now, as we also have for the past few years but apparently is forgotten immediately, is the compulsion to call this "being-experiencing" something other than "thinking", so that it bypasses all logical reasoning and stepwise differentiation of outer-inner phenomena to reach ever-higher unities, ever-higher stages of completion. You are treating them as completely separate modes of existence, that we can "be" and "experience" in the absence of cognition so as to maintain the duality between THAT versus its living and evolving ideas. Clearly that is (subconsciously) done across all modern philosophies, including materialism, to circumvent the lawful structure through which be-ings must evolve to reach ever-higher stages of moral perfection. As you said in a previous comment:

"It is not about "moral perfection", it is about karmic structures of the soul that need to be gradually restructured for the nondual state, which takes time and for most souls usually multiple incarnations."

In other words, you don't even understand 'karmic structures' or karmic laws as moral in essence. The desired split between morality and nature, between spirit and matter, is what gives rise to all these modern analytic models which keep intimate thinking activity in the blind spot and yours is not unique or different from them. You want to maintain the escape hatch which says 'most souls' have more work to do, but this soul is probably already free of Earthly karma after death and moral perfection through thinking effort which descends into the feeling and will, if pursued at all, is optional for those who want to keep dabbling in the created realm. And anyone who suggests I can concretely know my inner soul-state now before death, as it already exists in the higher discarnate worlds, so that I can start working on its attunement-perfection, must be a tyrant.

And none of it can explain why there even is a creation/manifestation of the B-E-T if it 'knows itself directly' and is 'entirely unconditioned' by it, meaning the former is completely unessential and metaphysically orthogonal to it, only serving as an arena for unnecessary and irredeemable evil and suffering.

B-E-T is creating because it can, because it has an inherent ability to do so, why not? B-E-T with its ability to manifest forms is the ontic fundamental, so no explanation of why it has such ability is needed. Yes, it knows itself directly, but there is nothing wrong with creating the worlds of forms too. The problems came though when some of its individuated activities decided to create this matrix of duality where they would function in a dualistic mode forgetting their B-E-T nature and deceiving themselves into believing that they are something different from B-E-T and separate from it, and so they would become bound to the created structures by these beliefs. Roughly, this story was described here. There are still valuable lessons to learn from these dualistic experiences, even though it was understood that a lot of suffering would be involved. So, it happened and there is nothing we can do about that, but eventually, when the souls reincarnating in the dualistic realm evolve, become mature enough and learn from the dualistic mode all they need to learn, most of them go back to the nondual mode through the realization and direct knowledge of their B-E-T nature, and from there start another journey but only through nondual manifestations where they never forget their direct knowing/gnosis of their B-E-T nature (since they already acquired a stable immunity to the dualistic mode of thinking and have no more interest in doing that again). Unfortunately, some souls become stuck in the dualistic matrix, believe in its agenda and become its servants and maintainers, and nobody knows for how long they are going to stay there.

So basically BET is like a curious child with no lucidly intelligent purpose behind its creation, only exercising its imaginative power for purely selfish reasons. It's very interesting how the ontic fundamental gets recast in the image of modern man by way of abstraction. Not to mention all of the above presupposes that linear time as we experience it is fundamental, so it is imagined there was a point in time where the BET existed in a pure state without any creation to speak of. And, again, moral absolution is granted because the maintainers of the dualistic matrix are projected as some other beings completely separate from you.

[Stranger]

What I am critiquing now, as we also have for the past few years but apparently is forgotten immediately, is the compulsion to call this "being-experiencing" something other than "thinking", so that it bypasses all logical reasoning and stepwise differentiation of outer-inner phenomena to reach ever-higher unities, ever-higher stages of completion. You are treating them as completely separate modes of existence, that we can "be" and "experience" in the absence of cognition so as to maintain the duality between THAT versus its living and evolving ideas. Clearly that is (subconsciously) done across all modern philosophies, including materialism, to circumvent the lawful structure through which be-ings must evolve to reach ever-higher stages of moral perfection.

There is no fundamental duality here, B-E-T can know itself directly and can also manifest and cognize the forms, there is no contradiction or any duality here, it just that B-E-T has a variety of ways to know and experience, and not limited to only one way. But you want us to believe that B-E-T has only one mode of knowing (by reason) and so necessarily has to become bound by the lawful structures that it itself created. But for any soul who knows the direct gnosis, the fact of direct experience is that B-E-T is unconditioned by any structures or laws. No structures can ever alter or stop it from Existing, from Experiencing and from Thinking. So, lets' count it the deception #1.

As you said in a previous comment:
"It is not about "moral perfection", it is about karmic structures of the soul that need to be gradually restructured for the nondual state, which takes time and for most souls usually multiple incarnations."
In other words, you don't even understand 'karmic structures' or karmic laws as moral in essence. The desired split between morality and nature, between spirit and matter, is what gives rise to all these modern analytic models which keep intimate thinking activity in the blind spot and yours is not unique or different from them. You want to maintain the escape hatch which says 'most souls' have more work to do, but this soul is probably already free of Earthly karma after death and moral perfection through thinking effort which descends into the feeling and will, if pursued at all, is optional for those who want to keep dabbling in the created realm.

Karmic structures in the dualistic realm cannot be moral in essence, because they are based on a fundamental lie, on a deception that we are something separate from B-E-T and that we are by nature bound by the laws and structures of the manifested world. A deception cannot be moral. So, that's a deception #2.

However, the gnosis-realization of our B-E-T nature is fundamentally moral in nature, because:
- it reveals the truth about our true fundamental nature and our fundamental possibility to become free from the structures and karmic laws
- it dispels the deception of the dualistic realm
- it reveals the fundamental inherent moral aspects of B-E-T such as Love, Compassion, Beauty, Oneness and Truth.

When souls become trapped in the dualistic mode, they also forget about these fundamental moral aspects of B-E-T together with forgetting about their B-E-T nature. But they have an intuitive longing for the lost Oneness, Love, Beauty and Truth and are constantly trying to find them in the world of duality, which is impossible because these aspects are just not there, but there are only counterfeit and distorted copies of them in the dualistic realm. When the souls become mature enough, they realize that finding these moral aspects in the world of duality it futile, and this intuitive longing then leads them to discover their B-E-T true nature with all its inherent moral aspects.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (John 10:27)

So, basically BET is like a curious child with no lucidly intelligent purpose behind its creation, only exercising its imaginative power for purely selfish reasons. It's very interesting how the ontic fundamental gets recast in the image of modern man by way of abstraction. Not to mention all of the above presupposes that linear time as we experience it is fundamental, so it is imagined there was a point in time where the BET existed in a pure state without any creation to speak of. And, again, moral absolution is granted because the maintainers of the dualistic matrix are projected as some other beings completely separate from you.

BET is only in childish mode when it manifests itself as a new soul, so, from there it has to evolve by learning through acquiring experiences in the manifested worlds. These experiences do not need to be dualistic, it is possible to perfectly learn and evolve through nondual experiences in the nondual realms, but some inexperienced souls fall for the temptation for dualistic experiences in the dualistic realms, because they are much more intense and thrilling, but of course also more suffering is involved (no free lunch). This is how we all ended up here.

Regarding time, if you would experience the gnosis, you would know that BET is beyond time, it is changeless. But as part of its ability to manifest forms, BET also has the ability to manifest time, because forms can only function in time. Regarding morals, see above.

And by the way, hey, we still love you guys, you are always welcomed back

[AshvinP]

And by the way, hey, we still love you guys, you are always welcomed back

Ok, Eugene, it's very difficult to find a way of conveying to you there is a world which does not only consist of abstractions floating on the screen of your perception. Probably it would be easier in person. You present a unique challenge and Lord knows we have tried to many old and new approaches.

I'm glad you added that last part, because it sums up your whole inner disposition throughout all the threads and comments. You feel your atomized soul free-floating above everyone on this forum. While the rest of us are deceived into seeking to know and transform our stream of becoming through courage and thinking effort, as you can see on Guney's thread for ex., you are living in the pure nondual truth which has bypassed all of that thinking effort and has become the equivalent of the Spirit, the Christ, and the Father. You are not conditioned by any lawful structures, and the fact that you clearly are right now, is conveniently placed onto some evil hierarchy maintaining a dualistic matrix which you are powerless to change on Earth. As we have been saying from the beginning, excessive pride i.e. atomized inflated ego conception is at the root of it all and this last comment just cements that fact further.

[Stranger]

Ok, Eugene, it's very difficult to find a way of conveying to you there is a world which does not only consist of abstractions floating on the screen of your perception. Probably it would be easier in person. You present a unique challenge and Lord knows we have tried to many old and new approaches.

Hey, you think I don't know that "there is a world which does not only consist of abstractions floating on the screen of your perception"?
It's just that the floating perceptions on the screen and the structures and laws behind it is all part of this dualistic matrix. My path is to become disentangled from all its karmic knots, I'm on my way out from the dualistic realm. I do respect and accept the fact that these structures exist. However, I have no obligations to continue to be involved in them, but I only have remaining karmic knots to disentangle and help others who need help while I'm still here.

I'm glad you added that last part, because it sums up your whole inner disposition throughout all the threads and comments. You feel your atomized soul free-floating above everyone on this forum.

Absolutely not, there is no "above" here and no feeling of any supremacy. We are all equally the individuated activities of the same B-E-T, none of us are superior or inferior. But just like in human domain, some of us are younger and less experienced, and some older and more mature. Some of us become addicted to and confused by the dualistic mode, and like addicts in human world, need compassioned help to become free from their addictions. Those who know and manifest the moral aspects of B-E-T naturally have a lot of care, compassion and motivation to help anyone who need help. I'm not the only one, there are many of us around.

While the rest of us are deceived into seeking to know and transform our stream of becoming through courage and thinking effort, as you can see on Guney's thread for ex., you are living in the pure nondual truth which has bypassed all of that thinking effort and has become the equivalent of the Spirit, the Christ, and the Father. You are not conditioned by any lawful structures, and the fact that you clearly are right now, is conveniently placed onto some evil hierarchy maintaining a dualistic matrix which you are powerless to change on Earth. As we have been saying from the beginning, excessive pride i.e. atomized inflated ego conception is at the root of it all and this last comment just cements that fact further.

What a distorted lie and twisting the facts! Deception#3. Regarding pride, it is the same as to say that people who help others do that out of pride. My job here is to dispel these lies, not out of pride, but out of the obligation to tell the truth and compassion for those who fell prey to the deceivers. And you try to convince me that this hierarchy is not evil? I would love to believe that, but the facts only show otherwise. Why not let the sols realize their true nature and leave the matrix? But your relentless rejection to accept even a possibility for souls to become liberated from the dualistic realm only shows how desperate and upset these guys are because they know they are losing souls from their rule.

Anyway, we have to work a lot and struggle to disentangle from the karmic knots and structures of this dualistic matrix through constant thinking effort and maintaining continuous awareness (and yes, I still regularly fail, it's not easy). I have to meditate for hours every day to keep going. I am, as a manifested soul structure, of course still conditioned by the lawful structures of the dualistic ream. But I know that my fundamental nature of B-E-T is not conditioned by them, so, when I connect to it in meditation, I learn how to disentangle from the karmic knots and go into deeper layers of them to undo them one by one. And I also learn and experience the moral aspects of B-E-T: Love, Compassion, Truth, Beauty, Humility, and others, and how to then enact them in everyday life.