Saving the materialists

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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Cleric
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Re: Saving the materialists

Post by Cleric »

AshvinP wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:23 pm I really appreciated the Chess example, which is something that I have been thinking about a lot lately, since I started playing. When he presented the board configuration, I was thinking that the GMs would not do as well if the configuration was something that would rarely arise in a chess game, since they have not moved their imaginative activity through those experiential states many times before, and sure enough, that's where he went. Chess is generally fertile soil for constructing metaphors for what we seek through the spiritual path. It allows for relatively pure descriptions of metamorphosing imaginative states in the context of at least one other agency's activity that interferes with our own.
Yes, chess can really be useful for some illustrations. Of course, it remains close to the domain of fixed-rule metamorphosis, but when used for the right purpose, I think it can be very useful. Actually, I use a chess experiment in the things I'm writing now. We'll see if it falls in the 'for the right purpose' category :)
AshvinP wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:23 pm Another metaphor I was thinking about recently, which also has relevance for this topic of what it means 'to learn', is how modern chess software allows for 'takebacks' if the opponent agrees. This is very understandable in the case of misclicks, which are usually obvious to spot, but what about when the person avoids 'system 2' thinking and makes an impulsive or ill thought-out move, only spotting the error after the fact? At first, I felt it was always better to allow the takeback, but then I realized that is only 'helping' the other player if the goal is winning the game. If the goal is to improve one's thinking-learning process, on the other hand, then it is better for us to live with the full consequences of our thinking errors, the suboptimal board configuration that we are left with, so we can properly integrate the feedback and also adapt to the new board circumstances, discovering creative ways to rebalance our position.

It seems that modern 'learning' (and culture in general), now resting on the crutches of technologies like AI, is practically synonymous with a chess game of continual takebacks. There are increasingly fewer opportunities for souls to live with the consequences of their suboptimal thinking process and integrate the feedback, since that process is externalized onto the technological crutches. AI can theoretically be developed to point out the errors in our reasoning to us and prompt us to think through the consequences of those dissonant flows, but practically speaking, people will use it to 'undo' the errors and act as if they never happened. That is, their interest will reside solely in 'winning the game' which, however, comes at the expense of true education and learning.
Yes, this makes sense. It also reminds me of the way that in high school, we had non-official books that had the math problems of the official textbooks solved. After struggling for a while with the problem, I was very often tempted, "Maybe I'll look at the solution of just this one." Then I look through it, see how it's done, and think "OK, I got it". On the next day, however, I almost always couldn't solve the same problem. The ready solution just passed from one ear out of the other, so to speak. On the other hand, when we solve the problem ourselves, it's much more likely to remember how it was done.
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Re: Saving the materialists

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Cleric wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:49 pm
AshvinP wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:23 pm I really appreciated the Chess example, which is something that I have been thinking about a lot lately, since I started playing. When he presented the board configuration, I was thinking that the GMs would not do as well if the configuration was something that would rarely arise in a chess game, since they have not moved their imaginative activity through those experiential states many times before, and sure enough, that's where he went. Chess is generally fertile soil for constructing metaphors for what we seek through the spiritual path. It allows for relatively pure descriptions of metamorphosing imaginative states in the context of at least one other agency's activity that interferes with our own.
Yes, chess can really be useful for some illustrations. Of course, it remains close to the domain of fixed-rule metamorphosis, but when used for the right purpose, I think it can be very useful. Actually, I use a chess experiment in the things I'm writing now. We'll see if it falls in the 'for the right purpose' category :)

Right, yet even the fixed rules for the different pieces can be used as imaginative symbols for the unique lawfulness of the sensory, life, psychic, and ideal spaces. As seems to be the case for many such games, they were originally imagined as occult symbols for supersensible realities, perhaps refined in the Middle Ages once the old clairvoyance had fully dissipated. I look forward to contemplating your experiment!

Yes, this makes sense. It also reminds me of the way that in high school, we had non-official books that had the math problems of the official textbooks solved. After struggling for a while with the problem, I was very often tempted, "Maybe I'll look at the solution of just this one." Then I look through it, see how it's done, and think "OK, I got it". On the next day, however, I almost always couldn't solve the same problem. The ready solution just passed from one ear out of the other, so to speak. On the other hand, when we solve the problem ourselves, it's much more likely to remember how it was done.

Exactly, I remember those as well :) And now that I have finished the presentation, I see that is exactly where Muller went with his 'great concern' for AI. The tendency to avoid the struggle and pain of working through our suboptimal thinking flows and thereby attain an ever-improving orientation to its intuitive consonances and dissonances. Come to think of it, usually when I reject the takeback proposal, the other player simply resigns. This is even when they lose a minor piece and can easily stage a comeback with some creative effort. Of course, they resign because they can simply hop into another online game immediately. So that is another way in which our modern technological crutches now prompt us to avoid the true learning process, in direct proportion to how advanced and efficient they become.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Saving the materialists

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Cleric wrote: Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:34 pm I agree. Maybe what caught my attention was the emphasis on the fact about how much of our personality actually lies beyond the tip of the iceberg experienced in the few mental images that bubble at each moment at the focus of our experience. And we know how the non-understanding of this fact is even greater in many 'spiritual' people, who take the whole complex web to be simply their pure and unquestionable being. So even if a few people from the auditorium left with a little appreciation about how much lies beyond our immediate control, and how we are nevertheless responsible to continuously metamorphose this web through minute steering movements at our focal point, that would be a great victory. I was happy to hear MS also touching upon this in the video you linked. I don't recall the exact words, but he also emphasized how our momentary state is embedded in the evolving context.
It's interesting, I will admit that didn't catch my attention at all. I will have to review it :)

In MS, perhaps these are the words:


"There's a place for science as the correct representation of factual information but I think truth in this higher capital T sense is more as in the platonic sense that you're speaking to, it's more like the virtuous transformation of the knower. It's not just correct representation of information but it's requiring us to transform. And it brings this question of the virtue of the knower to the forefront. You see this in the post kantian thinkers like Goethe. In his way of relating empathically to the growth of plants, or any natural phenomenon he was studying, there was a certain moral disposition that one had to take to lovingly relate to the phenomenon, which revealed aspects of that phenomenon that wouldn't otherwise be apparent to us if we objectified it. And so, all of a sudden, that subject object boundary and that sense that facts and values are separate really breaks down. And this is part of recognizing the human being as ourselves a natural phenomenon. We are an example of what we are studying. And that means all of our aims, our values, our consciousness are an exemplification of what nature also is doing. And granting nature the sort of interiority that we have I think is a prerequisite for this deeper kind of participation."
"On Earth the soul has a past, in the Cosmos it has a future. The seer must unite past and future into a true perception of the now." Dennis Klocek
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Re: Saving the materialists

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Cleric wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 5:33 pm
Federica wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 7:46 am In the spirit of “saving the materialist” and under the impression of various lecture cycles, I have recently thought about the following question: couldn’t (earthly) thinking be initially presented as (in principle quantifiable) energy - in line with the definition of energy in physics? Perhaps the use of a familiar framework could help approach, even from a materialistic perspective, the realization that thinking must be alive in all reality.

I was about to post a few elaborations on that, but then I stumbled upon my limited understanding of both current natural science and Steiners, for example what Steiner says about the law of conservation of energy, which I guess I understand, but not fully as I would need. I have had a few initial thoughts on how to compound all this, but I wonder: is anyone aware whether this idea has been addressed already (which would seem very likely to me) that energy, as modern science has it, can be a starting point to build a sense for the pervasiveness of thinking, on the physical plane to start with?
I think that this attempt [to represent thinking as quantifiable energy] will simply keep us circling in the age-old metaphysics. Actually, for some time now I've been putting together a list of a few things that I presently see as key milestones for the reorientation of modern scientific thinking toward making it compatible with living experience.

We can ask the same question in pretty much the same way about the 'life energy' that guides the growth of the mineral body. And it is not as if this hasn't been attempted (for example with vitalism). The trouble is that in the end, from the perspective of physics, this only adds a suspicious layer on top of the measurable physical world, which practically serves no other role than filling that gaps of knowledge with something imagined. It's the same with thinking (and consciousness). The even greater trouble is that even if the physicist accepts to consider such an additional layer in his model of reality, this would only make the whole theoretical system even more convoluted.

We have spoken about this before, but to this day the most powerful transformation of thinking that I recognize is thinking in terms of a metamorphosing state. This is already what science is doing in a lot of fields anyway. What is missing is the shift in inner perspective - to understand that this state is actually the relative perspective of our inner experience and to include also the flow of our thinking there.

The key here is that we do not try to build a thought model of this state from various conceptual elements (physical energy, mental energy, etc.) Instead, we need to learn to be mindful of the real-time experience of the flow and closely observe how our inner activity feeds back through the experience.

Maybe it could be useful to make an analogy with pseudo forces in physics (like the Coriolis force).



Let's consider biological growth because it feels more pictorially approachable. Imagine that we get to choose the way the World state metamorphoses by steering the direction of the flow. We forget about all laws of nature for a while and imagine that the next World state state could be anything as long as we can find a way to bend the flow of metamorphosis in that way. For example, we can steer the metamorphosis toward states where the phenomenological pixels of our bodily experience crumble and fall apart or cohere and grow in a healthy way. From our perspective there are no 'forces'. There's a whole palette of potential next states, we simply intend certain direction. It's like steering toward what the next movie frame should be. From another perspective, however, it may seem as certain forces are at play, much like the Coriolis force that bend the ball's path. Then we look at the biological system and say "There are certain forces here that pull the biological material in the right way to sustain life." This could be the perspective of vitalism.

Of course, at our present human stage we do not get to steer the biological flow in such a direct way. But we can do that to our thinking flow to a much greater extent. And here the thinking flow is not to be taken as something fundamentally distinct from the World flow as a whole. For example, when we look at the following image (let's pretend it is a faithful scan of brain activity):

Image

we make things difficult for us if we say "OK, so here's the material part with the neurons, then thought energy surges through it and activates the different parts." It's not that there could be no value in this way of speaking and thinking, but we should remember that in a sense this 'thought-energy' is like a Coriolis force. From our first-person flow, there's only the bending of the flow of mematorphosis. It's like saying "I'll steer toward a World state where I experience such mental images, which can only be such if the brain pixels are also such and such." In other words, the World state should always be thought of as something whole. Ultimately, when this holistic state is grasped in differentiated way and it seems that differentiated parts affect each other 'horizontally' through exchanges of forces, this can be considered a 'Coriolis view'. The origin of these forces can only be found in the interference of superimposed first-person perspectives, where each bends the World-flow according to its limited intuitions. And just like the dude in the video said, this doesn't mean that these forces are 'unreal', as if we can realize their illusionary nature and think them away. It's all a matter of finding the right perspective.


Perhaps the way the evolving scientific idea of energy could help materialists consider the inner side of matter (the inner side of organic thinking and also of all other sensory substances and phenomena) is if a parallel can be highlighted in this way:


energy : matter or mass = process : substance or element

or

energy : matter or mass = process : phenomenon



The idea is, when cracks and misconceptions in the energy-mass equation become more evident, like it is happening now, scientists may begin to open to the possibility that there is more to energy than only a function of matter. From there, they may also open to the possibility that there is more to an element (from the periodic table) than its material culmination captured in the table, and more to a physical phenomenon than its sense perceptible (or instrument-perceptible) description in time.

In general, the limitation of present-day science is that pervading cosmic and earthly processes are ignored. It’s as if a reductionist impetus coming from below the level of man flattened and fragmented the true formative processes of reality to shape a restricted conception - a scientific conception - that unknowingly limits itself to the processes’ mere elemental culminations (chemistry) or phenomenal culminations (physics).

However, to properly understand the phenomena of nature (this also connects with the other thread and the Hueck quote) one has to be able to conceive of any materialized natural element or phenomenon as only the momentary culmination - the coming to rest as Steiner says - of pervasive processes extending beyond the sensory realm. Only through an interest in the reciprocal interplay of supersensible cosmic and supersensible earthly processes is it possible to close the circle and trace material unfolding all the way to its primal causes. If one only looks at the momentary form perceived by the senses in the interaction with a given substance or phenomenon - if we only look at the material aspect - it’s like a flatlander trying to visualize a cube. It is challenging, and inevitably hypothetical (or metaphysical) to try and get to the real causes, because the overlooked expansive dynamics are decisive to the particular characteristics of the observed material culmination or unfolding.

So perhaps the concept of energy, with its elusive quality in science, could work as a viable bridge for natural scientists to approach the necessary shift in the study of matter, especially if people begin to accept the idea - as Steiner always argued - that energy is not conserved. 24% of Veritasium followers who have answered the latest Youtube survey have now stated that they agree: energy is not conserved. Here’s the related video from last week: “The biggest misconception in physics - Energy is not conserved”. I don’t get all the mathematical and experimental details, but if scientists eventually start to admit that, a breach opens up for the consideration of the extensive non-spatial processes operating behind sense-perceptible substances and phenomena - the "becoming of phenomena", in Huecks words.

In this direction, it would not be a matter of saying: “OK, so here's the material part with the neurons, then thought energy surges through it and activates the different parts.” It would be more like saying: we used to think of energy as a conserved property in the universe - conservation of total cosmic energy - but this cannot be, since it only holds in a hypothetical time-symmetric universe, which is a pure abstraction. At 17:26 it is said that in reality the rock thrown in space just “comes to rest” with regards to the other objects in the universe, and its energy is simply lost, it doesn’t go anywhere. But what if the entire phenomenon - not only the rock’s state - is a “coming to rest” of a more expansive formative process, operating from a higher dimension that is not accessible to the senses? These suprasensible primal causes could perhaps be approached as the materially untraceable energetic aspect, powering entire 3D sensory phenomena is sensory space.


PS: Curiosly, it seems like the video has now got a new titel and thumbnail, "The problem in relativity Einstein couldn't fix"
"On Earth the soul has a past, in the Cosmos it has a future. The seer must unite past and future into a true perception of the now." Dennis Klocek
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Re: Saving the materialists

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This double pendulum demonstration comes in handy at this juncture: not only energy is not conserved - "it goes nowhere" in the video just above - but it may also come from nowhere, as it is noticed in this video. At some point the pendulum motion "gets some energy from somewhere" and unfolds in a "chaotic" pattern. This illustration has been presented many times already by Cleric and Ashvin, to symbolise the state of convolution in which we and our world are immersed, and the degrees of separation between original, direct intuition in reality and ordinary present-day thinking. Here, with reference to energy, it can illustrate in particular how decisive the supra-sensible processes need to be in order for the exact unfolding patterns of phenomena to be accounted for. If those expansive processes are ignored, lawfulness is perceived as chaos. What maintains the gap between perceived chaos and intrinsic lawfulness is the difference between the merely material unfolding that can be followed in sense perception and the suprasensible, expansive interplay of processes hidden in the Cosmos in plein spiritual sight - hence accessible in inner perception. I like when he stops talking and tries to 'listen to the chaos'. Way to go :-)



"On Earth the soul has a past, in the Cosmos it has a future. The seer must unite past and future into a true perception of the now." Dennis Klocek
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Re: Saving the materialists

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Federica wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 8:03 am Here’s the related video from last week: “The biggest misconception in physics - Energy is not conserved”. I don’t get all the mathematical and experimental details, but if scientists eventually start to admit that, a breach opens up for the consideration of the extensive non-spatial processes operating behind sense-perceptible substances and phenomena - the "becoming of phenomena", in Huecks words.

Thanks for sharing your insightful thoughts on this topic, Federica. I don't have much to comment at the moment, but just thought it was interesting that I also came across this non-conservation of energy video after Cleric posted the other one and started searching for a relevant Steiner quote to share. I found a few and settled on this one (as expected, no likes or responses):

"Here we come to the point where he who is initiated into the secrets of the universe cannot speak, as so many speak today, of the conservation of energy or the conservation of matter. It is simply not true that matter is conserved forever.[1] Matter dies to the point of nullity, to a zero-point. In our own organism, energy dies to the point of nullity through the fact that we formulate theoretical thoughts. But if we did not do so, if the universe did not continually die in us, we should not be human in the true sense. Because the universe dies in us, we are endowed with self-consciousness and are able to think about the universe. But these thoughts are the corpse of the universe. We become conscious of the universe as a corpse only, and it is this that makes us human.

A past world dies within us, down to its very matter and energy. It is only because a new universe at once begins to dawn that we do not notice this dying of matter and its immediate rebirth. Through our theoretical thinking, matter—substantiality—is brought to its end; through our pictorial thinking, matter and cosmic energy are imbued with new life. Thus what goes on inside the boundary of the human skin is connected with the dying and birthing of worlds. This is how the moral order and the natural order are connected. The natural world dies away in man; in the realm of the moral a new natural world comes to birth.
...
Because of unwillingness to consider these things, the ideas of the imperishability of matter and energy were invented. If energy were imperishable and matter were imperishable there would be no moral world-order. But today it is desired to keep this truth concealed and modern thought has every reason to do so, because otherwise it would have to eliminate the moral world-order—which in actual fact it does by speaking of the law of the conservation of matter and energy. If matter is conserved, or energy is conserved, the moral world-order is nothing but an illusion, a mirage. We can understand the course of the world's development only if we grasp how out of this 'illusory' moral world order—for so it is when it is grasped in thoughts—new worlds come into being." (Steiner, GA 202, 1920)



The saddest thing is that, here we are 105 years after Steiner elucidated such things in detail, and still only 24% of us can see the flaws in the conservation of energy principle, and among that 24%, probably none have attained any concrete inkling of what it is pointing to.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Saving the materialists

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Federica wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 10:40 am This double pendulum demonstration comes in handy at this juncture: not only energy is not conserved - "it goes nowhere" in the video just above - but it may also come from nowhere, as it is noticed in this video. At some point the pendulum motion "gets some energy from somewhere" and unfolds in a "chaotic" pattern. This illustration has been presented many times already by Cleric and Ashvin, to symbolise the state of convolution in which we and our world are immersed, and the degrees of separation between original, direct intuition in reality and ordinary present-day thinking. Here, with reference to energy, it can illustrate in particular how decisive the supra-sensible processes need to be in order for the exact unfolding patterns of phenomena to be accounted for. If those expansive processes are ignored, lawfulness is perceived as chaos. What maintains the gap between perceived chaos and intrinsic lawfulness is the difference between the merely material unfolding that can be followed in sense perception and the suprasensible, expansive interplay of processes hidden in the Cosmos in plein spiritual sight - hence accessible in inner perception. I like when he stops talking and tries to 'listen to the chaos'. Way to go :-)
Thanks, Federica. While we can surely make such bridges, if we want to be completely precise, some remarks should be made.

The pendulum effect doesn't really count toward the non-conservation-of-energy examples. There are different examples in mechanics that feel very unintuitive but are nevertheless completely describable through mechanics (and thus there's conservation - at least to the precision we can measure). Another very peculiar example is this:



By just looking at this, it seems completely unintuitive. Quite unlike the kinds of processes that we normally call mechanical. One may almost say that the object exhibits a 'will of its own' and 'spontaneously decides' to flip over. Of course, we should be careful with this, because it is this kind of thinking that may lead us to say that an algorithm exhibits delayed gratification.

The example with the rock is different, but alas, it can hardly be used to point attention to the supersensible. Let me be clear - it can totally be used to point attention to the supersensible, in the sense that we're pointing out that there's something entering and leaving the sensory frequency band of reality, and we need to open up for it. However, such a statement is accommodated in a specific way by the intellect (to whom we appeal).

For instance, when we look at the GR case, we can make an analogy with the following. Imagine that for a long time we've been studying an engine that has been perfectly insulated from the environment. In this way, no heat can escape. We conclude that there's a law of conservation of heat. If the insulation cracks, however, heat escapes into the outer environment, the engine cools, and we conclude that heat is not conserved. Of course, this will not in the least incite us to think of anything supersensible. We simply enlarge our intellectual model to include also the environment, and now we follow how heat transforms through this wider system. Something comparable happens in the GR sense, as explained in the video with the pipe cracks. The difference is that the types of quantities also transform. What has been kinetic energy (the rock's inertia) becomes transformed into some aspect of the spacetime curvature. But now, in this greater picture, there's still a closed system (the continuity principle). So there's once again equilibrium, except that not simply between kinetic and potential energy but among more fundamental aspects. And then, just as the rock apparently loses its kinetic energy as the underlying spacetime lattice stretches, so one may say that if for some reason the spacetime oscillations elastically rebound and contract, then we may see a stationary rock spontaneously gaining momentum, apparently for no reason, as if it creates its energy out of nothing.

The important thing is that the intellect can inflate in this way without limit. Even if we tell him "There's something more that evades the senses", he'll simply answer "No problem, I'll just widen the scope of my concepts. Now I'll capture this elusive something and try to build a model for the way it pours in and out of the sense perceptible spectrum." This can be done even for Steiner's quote above, if it is grasped purely intellectually. One can say. "Sure, there's this imaginative energy that continuously transforms into the sense-perceptible energy oscillations of Nature." And this is really the difficult part. It's very difficult to point attention that we're not merely trying to conceive of some more encompassing metaphysical substance which explains what matter/energy is losing/gaining through the conservation violation, but that a different mode of positioning ourselves within the flow of existence is implied.
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Re: Saving the materialists

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Cleric wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 3:06 pm
Federica wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 10:40 am This double pendulum demonstration comes in handy at this juncture: not only energy is not conserved - "it goes nowhere" in the video just above - but it may also come from nowhere, as it is noticed in this video. At some point the pendulum motion "gets some energy from somewhere" and unfolds in a "chaotic" pattern. This illustration has been presented many times already by Cleric and Ashvin, to symbolise the state of convolution in which we and our world are immersed, and the degrees of separation between original, direct intuition in reality and ordinary present-day thinking. Here, with reference to energy, it can illustrate in particular how decisive the supra-sensible processes need to be in order for the exact unfolding patterns of phenomena to be accounted for. If those expansive processes are ignored, lawfulness is perceived as chaos. What maintains the gap between perceived chaos and intrinsic lawfulness is the difference between the merely material unfolding that can be followed in sense perception and the suprasensible, expansive interplay of processes hidden in the Cosmos in plein spiritual sight - hence accessible in inner perception. I like when he stops talking and tries to 'listen to the chaos'. Way to go :-)
Thanks, Federica. While we can surely make such bridges, if we want to be completely precise, some remarks should be made.

The pendulum effect doesn't really count toward the non-conservation-of-energy examples.

I haven't refreshed the pendulum example as a non-conservation-of-energy example. What I meant is that the pendulum shows a case of 'inexplicable' incoming energy. At least, this is how I understand it from what it's said in the video. Since science cannot explain or predict the pendulum's pattern, it calls it chaotic. So I rather presented it as a specular example to the cases on non conservation of energy. Here, energy 'comes from nowhere' to a physical system. And so my point was: the lack of explanation for this "nowhere" is one more pointing to the necessity of extending inquiry to a different plane. Would that be correct?

Cleric wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 3:06 pm The important thing is that the intellect can inflate in this way without limit. Even if we tell him "There's something more that evades the senses", he'll simply answer "No problem, I'll just widen the scope of my concepts. Now I'll capture this elusive something and try to build a model for the way it pours in and out of the sense perceptible spectrum." This can be done even for Steiner's quote above, if it is grasped purely intellectually. One can say. "Sure, there's this imaginative energy that continuously transforms into the sense-perceptible energy oscillations of Nature." And this is really the difficult part. It's very difficult to point attention that we're not merely trying to conceive of some more encompassing metaphysical substance which explains what matter/energy is losing/gaining through the conservation violation, but that a different mode of positioning ourselves within the flow of existence is implied.

Yes, I realize the intellect can always inflate in this way. But I don't see this as a problem. It is even a necessity, I believe, that the intellect be able to take that direction. If one were to succeed in coercing the intellect into accepting spiritual inquiry as a must-have, there would be no point, no value, and no sense in the entire endeavor. That's why I've been using words like "facilitating", or "helping", to refer to these efforts to "save the materialists". Hopefully there will always be the possibility for the head-thinker to say: "Ok, let me provide for this additional information or circumstance and extend the theory". It's only when this inertial path remains open for the intellect to keep rolling as usual, that the choice to listen to the chaos in a new way can take fruitful root, in those who were already in tune with that opening, as a self-determining, free gesture of the thinking will.
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Re: Saving the materialists

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Federica wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:41 pm I haven't refreshed the pendulum example as a non-conservation-of-energy example. What I meant is that the pendulum shows a case of 'inexplicable' incoming energy.
And the second bold implies precisely the first. My point was that in the case of the double pendulum, we observe behavior that seems unintuitive (like with the wingnut in space). Sometimes one arm of the pendulum seems to stop, as if it has exhausted its energy, then it abruptly starts moving again, as if it gathers energy from an inexplicable source. But this is really only a visual impression based on the fact that we are not accustomed to such behavior. A simple pendulum is easy to build an intuition for. We simply close our eyes and continue rhythmically swinging in our imagination. The double pendulum is not that easy. Sure, we can easily imagine it swinging wildly in our imagination, but the imaginary movements now seem willed more or less arbitrarily. If we return to the single pendulum, as we imagine the weight climbing up and slowing down, it feels very natural to bring it to a halt and smoothly accelerate the mental image back down. It is almost as if our intuitive curvature (etched by repeated observations of perceptual oscillatory processes) drags our imagination in its riverbed. When imagining a double pendulum, we feel more at loss. How do we decide if one arm should halt? How do we decide after how long it should abruptly start swinging again?

Nevertheless, the mathematical description of this process is very precise. Just search in youtube for "double pendulum simulation". It is a standard textbook exercise to derive the differential equations of motion of the double pendulum, and it is another standard task to make a numerical simulation. The reason why the movement seems unintuitive is because the potential energy of the system is defined in a more complicated way. What does this mean?

Imagine a classic example:

Image

This is very intuitive to understand. Here the potential energy (PE) depends only on the height. The higher the cart is, the more potential for gaining speed (kinetic energy - KE) it has. Here's the place to remind that in physics, these energies should not be imagined as some sparkling 'energies', as some metaphysical bubbling substances. These are simply numerical assessments for the velocity and coordinates that have proven useful in practice. These numeric quantities can be thought of as currencies that can be exchanged. In the above image, we are low in the pit with high speed (higher KE) which can be 'exchanged' for height (higher PE). Then we reach the top but at the expense of losing speed. It is very different if we are low in the pit but also lacking velocity. Then we are simply stuck. We have no kinetic currency to exchange for height. Now we truly need an external source of energy, like the chain lift used for the initial climb of the rollercoasters. In this way, external energy is converted into height (PE) which then is converted into motion (KE) and happy screams.

We can do physics even without ever coming to the idea of KE and PE. We can simply apply the F=ma law at each step, and everything will build up just the same. Yet, thinking in terms of the accumulated motion (KE) and whether the configuration of the system is such that it can descend the potential gradient (PE) and gain motion, proves very useful, especially for more complicated systems. For rollercoasters and pendulums, this KE-PE exchange is as if almost implied in what we see. In the DP, however, there are two degrees of freedom. Thus, the PE doesn't depend only on the height of one weight but on two. These two degrees of freedom can be denoted with 𝜃1 and 𝜃2.

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In other words, assuming that the masses and rod lengths are fixed, we need only these two angles to fully describe the state of the system. If we plot the PE of the whole system in the way it depends on both angles, we get something like this:

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Here x and y correspond to 𝜃1 and 𝜃2, while the z height is the PE. Notice how in the middle, where both angles are zero we have the minimal PE. This is when both arms are pointed straight down (𝜃1=𝜃2=0). This corresponds to the motionless rollercoaster in the pit. The DP is stuck. If both arms are inclined, thus both 𝜃 are non-zero, we move toward the peaks at the corners. If only one angle is non-zero, the other zero, then we have intermediate cases along the x and y axes.

We need to switch our thinking here and realize that a point in this x, y space corresponds to the state of the pendulum. That is, it is not a point in 3D space. This is the so-called configuration space or state space. Now imagine that we place a marble somewhere along this landscape. The x, y coordinates of that marble correspond to a specific state of the pendulum - specific 𝜃1 and 𝜃2 angles. What happens next? The marble is somewhere along the PE gradient. We let it go and it starts rolling in the direction of steepest descent. The marble gains momentum. What does this motion correspond to? To the fact that the two angles of the DP are now changing. Some of the PE is exchanged for KE. Now we can let our imagination loose and picture how a marble would roll in such a landscape. It would accelerate downward but also gain speed. It then overshoots the lowest point and starts climbing against the PE gradient, losing KE in the process. We can easily see how complicated this rolling could be. For comparison, a simple pendulum can be imagined as the DP but with arms glued together such that 𝜃1 is always equal to 𝜃2. This would mean that marble is constrained about the diagonals (this is where x is always equal to y). If we try to imagine the cross-section of the landscape across these diagonals, we'll see a familiar valley (like the rollercoaster pit). Now everything is much more trivial. We can imagine the marble rolling in this valley back and forth, and this is the behavior of the simple pendulum.

The point to remember is that we're working in configuration space. The marble represents a state of the DP, defined by the two angles. Yet, we can think of this space in terms of a potential landscape and the state of the system as the marble gaining or losing momentum.

We need to take note of two things. The gradient (the steepness) of the PE landscape is easy to determine. If a marble is placed at any point along this landscape at the moment of letting go it has zero KE because there's no movement yet through configuration space. Immediately, however, the PE gradient acts like a force that accelerates the system down the steepest direction.

Things are more complicated if we think of a marble that is already moving. Then it will also experience force along the steepest direction, but it still has inertia (KE) in some other direction. Thus, it will roll by inertia, but its direction will be bent toward the steepest direction. So we see that when we take the existing inertia and the PE bending force, it is more complicated to say what path the marble follows.

In numeric simulations this process is broken down in discrete steps. Let's say that the marble is at position x, y and it's current velocity is denoted with an arrow consisting of vx and vy components.
1. We calculate the steepness of the gradient (the force) at the current position
2. Every force yields acceleration (through F=m*a), and acceleration is a change in the v arrow. Thus, the force will slightly turn the velocity arrow into the direction of greatest steepness, but not all the way.
3. We move the marble a little according to the v direction.
4. Repeat.

The precision of this method depends on how finely we slice the discrete steps. The finer they are, the more accurate. The coarser they are, the more the marble jumps from a position to a position and we update the arrow only after the jump. In other words, in between the two positions it is as if the force of the PE gradient doesn't exist. We ignore the PE field for a while and assume the marble travels as in free space, following the arrow. Then we momentarily reintroduce the PE field, push the arrow a little and repeat. Obviously, this introduces errors, the larger the time step is.

A more rigorous way to find the true path, which we would approach if the steps were to become infinitely fine, is achieved through the principle of least action. It gives us a method to, so to speak, filter out the path that is just right, where the changes of KE are consistent with the changes of PE.

The power of thinking in terms of KE and PE is that we can think about the whole system through such a marble analogy. Of course, most systems of interest have far more degrees of freedom than one or two. This would require that we visualize a multidimensional landscape. Mathematically, the gradient through the PE field is still trivial to calculate, and there's no problem to express movement as the changes of more than one, two, or three coordinates. Our visual intuition breaks down, but we can still conceive how the state of the system (the marble's coordinates in the multidimensional configuration space) continuously experiences force that tries to accelerate it 'down' the steepest gradient, while the marble still has its inertial motion.

All classical mechanics boils down to grasping this interplay. A DP if fully understandable in this way. It can be simulated with no problem. All of the bizareness of behavior is due to the more complicated PE landscape and we can get some intuitive sense for this if we imagine the marble rolling in the above shape. It is still not easy to imagine how every marble position corresponds to specific arm positions but we may gain some insight how the marble may slow down and change directions.

The reason our ordinary pendulum intuition breaks down is that we secretly try to see it through the prism of a simple marble rolling in a proper valley, where everything is simple and predictable. If we think in terms of the more complicated PE landscape, it is easier to see why the system exhibits seemingly unintuitive movements. However, there's nothing magical in this. There's no energy created or destroyed in ways that require us to imagine supersensible sources. It is all still an interplay between PE steepness and KE inertia.

This was a lengthy lecture but I just wanted to show that there's no inexplicable income of energy in the case of the DP or any other purely mechanical system. All confusion comes from us trying to fit the perceptions to our familiar intuition of simpler mechanics, like an oscillating weight on a spring or a rollercoaster. When there's a system with more degrees of freedom, these may look very unintuitive, but, as hopefully shown, in its essence, it's still a marble rolling along a gradient.
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Federica
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Re: Saving the materialists

Post by Federica »

Cleric wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 1:19 pm
Federica wrote: Wed Apr 23, 2025 4:41 pm I haven't refreshed the pendulum example as a non-conservation-of-energy example. What I meant is that the pendulum shows a case of 'inexplicable' incoming energy.
And the second bold implies precisely the first. My point was that in the case of the double pendulum, we observe behavior that seems unintuitive (like with the wingnut in space). Sometimes one arm of the pendulum seems to stop, as if it has exhausted its energy, then it abruptly starts moving again, as if it gathers energy from an inexplicable source. But this is really only a visual impression based on the fact that we are not accustomed to such behavior.


Thank you so much Cleric, I see. I am sorry you had to write a long post. It was only my ignorance in these matters. Youtube served me that video, and I thought it fitted nicely as one more illustration of the previous post, but it doesn't. I was misled by the word "chaotic". Now that I've googled it, I see the scientific definition of chaotic is not really "unpredictable" as one would think from common language use. A predictable motion modeled through known equations can still be called chaotic, or irregular. Next time I will try to be more cautious with scientific concepts. Thank you for the great explanation!
"On Earth the soul has a past, in the Cosmos it has a future. The seer must unite past and future into a true perception of the now." Dennis Klocek
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