Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Rodriel Gabrez »

Federica wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 10:39 am
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Mon Oct 13, 2025 10:59 pm I'm a bit disappointed that you bring these quotations back up, given the amount of time that has been spent in this thread discussing how to interpret such remarks in the light of Tomberg's project. It's like pointing to the spirit-vacated Christ on the Cross and saying, "look, he's dead - there's no arguing with the fact that what we are looking at is a dead body." This kind of thinking absolutely must be transcended in order to read Tomberg.

Hint: Tomberg's letters to Bernhard Martin (more often quoted from Prokofieff's polemic than Martin's own book) are spiritual exercises in themselves.

Dear Rodriel,
I am sincerely sorry for the unpleasant feeling, which I understand, and that there will be some more pain to go through, now or later on. I am saying this because the fact that you knew this letter, and see a spiritual exercise in it (that is, not an expression of repudiation of spiritual science, but instead an invitation to a spiritual exercise, safe that any communication can be transformed by the receiver in phenomenological exercise, of course) is indicative of an ingrained conviction.

I guess/hope Ashvin was not aware of these anti-spiritual scientific writings (there are more of them) and I can well understand that the subtle trivializing of Steiner’s figure in MoT may go unnoticed, given the sparse dissemination of the soft barbs throughout 700 plus pages, mostly in form of side notes. However, arguing that thoughts like the ones formed in such correspondence are not a repudiation of spiritual science but spiritual exercises, is grotesque, Rodriel. You can suggest that I’m gross and a bad student, you can clothe it under the claim that Tomberg has to be read in a particularly subtle and discerning way - you only make things worse. Because if there is one thing that is present in MoT, but cruelly missing in a letter such as this one, is precisely subtlety. And this needs to be brought to attention. I’m glad that Cleric is concerned with the inner aspect of this mystery, because he can. For my part, while I am primarily busy with maintaining objectivity and controlling the elastic pulls, I can surely do part of the outer work, which is useful too, I believe, as with all the pink above, for example.

A question for you: how on Earth would you explain that a spiritual exercise needs to involve calling Steiner an anti-pope, for example? Where is the subtelty in there, with or without reference to the RCC project? Unfortunately, it is beyond obviousness that Tomberg was thinking the least of all about the Unknown Friends in this letter, which rather stands out as the late monologue of an ailing, resentful soul. Whoever pretends he does not see it, is as if going around with hams on the eyes, as I may say borrowing from an airy-element idiom.


PS: When I said that VT has not been in the mood for doing, inwardly or outwardly, I mean for example this kind of mood:
Tomberg wrote:Dear Unknown Friend—you who are reading these lines written in 1965, after nearly fifty years of endeavour and experience in the domain of Hermeticism—I beg you not to regard what is written here as a simple wish made for the progression of Hermetic historicism, but as a testament making you who read these lines a trustee of such a task— if you accept. Therefore, please do all that you judge appropriate, but one thing I implore you not to do: to found an organisation, an association, a society or an order which would take charge of that. For the tradition lives not thanks to organisations, but in spite of them. One should content oneself purely and simply with friendship in order to preserve the life of a tradition; it should not be entrusted to the care of the embalmers and mummifiers par excellence that organisations are, save for the one founded by Jesus Christ.
That's okay, Federica. I shouldn't allow myself to get caught up in such feelings. You speak of an ingrained conviction. That I have a conviction is no secret. But ingrained? On the contrary, these letters in which you find such an obvious repudiation of spiritual science and a besmirching of Steiner's person and legacy in fact contributed greatly in my arriving at this conviction. These are not statements to be read in isolation but within the context of Tomberg's entire body of work, where he tells the reader exactly what he is doing through his words. But one must be able to recognize the language of death and resurrection. If my explanations up to this point have made no impression, then I don't reckon any further belaboring will change things.

Since you've asked specifically about the anti-pope comment, I will comment on it. This is simply a restatement in slightly different words of Steiner's express wishes not to be treated as a figure of religious veneration. Steiner of course knew that people would do this and that it would become an impediment both to their own spiritual development and to the general progress of spiritual science. Yet the Anthroposophical Society did exactly that and - like Ashvin has just pointed out - turned Anthroposophy into the very thing it was supposed to transcend, namely a corpse. The continuous undercurrent in Tomberg's statements on Anthroposophy is: it has become a corpse; yet the spirit lives; do not cling to the corpse but to the active spirit. Yes, but how can Tomberg say that and then seek refuge in the Catholic Church, the ultimate corpse of an institution? Well, the point is that Tomberg discerned (astutely) that the Catholic Church, while a hardened trunk in many respects, is crucially a living stump in the right places (this is what I have been saying at length about Peter leaving an opening for the consciousness soul - a fact that you can find explicitly stated in Steiner), from which a rod will shoot forth.
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Cleric wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 2:41 pm I want to start with something that I intended to write earlier in connection with the perfection of the intellectual soul and the role of the Church, but I felt that at that point it would only add to the crossfire. Naturally, our experience of the intellectual and spiritual souls is bound to be a little mushy initially. We can present this like this:

Image

To truly differentiate these two aspects, however, we would have to consider the stream of German Idealism. This historical process is the image of the ‘sharpening’ of the intellectual self, reaching its zenith in Hegel, where the whole of reality is seen in pure thought. Note – this doesn’t mean pure theory, but the pure experience of thought. This is the ‘stuff’ of reality, so to speak.

Effectively, to reach that point, we need to consider what was quoted by Federica earlier:
RS wrote:It is the true fulfillment of what men were seeking in the time now past, in the last third of the Nineteenth Century—true freedom—freedom in their conception of the world, in their research and even in their opinions.
We should take a moment to appreciate what this implies. It means that we need to peel away even our deeper convictions, like the belief in God. This is important: we may believe that because we have spiritual thoughts and feel that our thought life condenses from within a deeper stratum of existence, we have overcome the intellectual soul. It’s far more likely, however, that we’re still in the mushy state depicted above. One can be quite an occultist but still be very instinctive in their thinking. To truly differentiate these stages of inner life, we need to pass, as if through a pinhole, where we’re basically reduced to naked and alone thought-being in universal phenomenal space. We can depict this in the following way:

Image

So it is the stream of German Idealism that, in a way, has brought the intellectual soul from a blurry blob to a crisp point (in the way that light rays can be brought from a blurry spot to a laser-like point, by adjusting the lens focus). Then, it is PoF that actually steps across the pinhole and gradually begins to substantiate the lower cone from above. Only now we can gradually turn from a being that thinks instinctively about reality (from the background as it were) to reality’s actual process of becoming.

Now, let’s move forward and see that this mushy region is actually much more treacherous than we may imagine. On what foundation does VT build a work like MoT? Quite obviously, on the stream of Hermeticism. It is a vast topic if we are to get into the full details of the latter, but in very broad lines, we may say that it basically preserves and nourishes Wisdom that took form in the Egyptian period, but has necessarily been rechewed many times through the millennia. Most importantly, this Wisdom has been accommodated in a special way in the last millennium, in the age of the ripening intellectual soul. This has proliferated in the branches of Kabbalah, magic, alchemy, and astrology, that is, in the various forms of Western occultism.

Let’s try to get a really living experience of the structure of all this. For example, what are the Arcana? To get a truer understanding, we need to move beyond definitions and into actual deeper experience. So when we speak of an arcanum in the deep sense (and not only of the symbolic precipitation), we need to loosen from the bodily spectrum and be fully active in soul space. In a sense, we must find the degrees of freedom in our soul body, such as to assume various ‘soul asanas’. These don't imply static geometric forms but must be grasped in their temporal nature, as ways in which destiny can be patterned. As a rough analogy, we can imagine how the airplane’s control surfaces – the ailerons, elevators, rudder, flaps – change their positions and thus experience various forces and torques against the airflow. In a similar way, when through our conscious activity we meditate on an arcanum, we assume a specific configuration of our soul’s ‘control surfaces’ and as a result experience the ‘rubbing’ of becoming in specific ways. This is critical to understand. We should move away from the spatial domination and grasp things more in the sense of the video feedback metaphor – our activity is written down and is recursively embedded in the phenomenal configuration of reality. As such, the arcana reveal specific patterns and lawfulnesses – how certain soul activities play out in the flow of destiny.

There’s no theory here, no mental models – we’re truly living like an expanded fluid in soul space and investigating how our inner intents bend the flow, how they are resisted or assisted. In this way, the arcana can be grasped as basic patterns of inner gesture and feedback in soul space. These patterns form a kind of axiomatic basis.

Here, we should get one thing clear. Just because we’re freed from the sensory spectrum and live in true soul (or dream) space, it doesn’t mean that we have transcended the intellectual soul. We can live in the astral with our intellectual soul or even sentient soul. This is also why they are called ‘souls’. We shouldn’t equate the intellectual soul with the brain-bound intellect. When we live in the Hermetic Wisdom in the astral, we metamorphose through the axiomatic arcanic patterns. This is very similar to the way we live with our intellect in the axiomatic patterns of formal logic or mathematics. In fact, the latter can be considered a more condensed version (intersected with the bodily spectrum) of what we live through in the intellectual soul in purely astral space. So, what is definitive about the life of the intellectual soul is not the manipulation of mental images in our mind, but the transformations from soul asana to soul asana. The latter give us a stable form in astral space, just like we feel as a stable functioning ego when we metamorphose from thought to thought.

Western occultism in the last millennium revolves around these astral experiences. They are expressed symbolically. Obviously, such symbols are always in danger of remaining completely abstract, as is often the case in popular astrology and Kabbalah, where the soul metamorphoses have been reduced to a form of calculation. In this respect, VT performs outstandingly to continuously lead the aspirant toward the true inner experience of the arcana.

Yet, we should feel how the Hermetic Wisdom is still basically dominated by the intellectual soul. I repeat that this doesn’t in the least imply that this Wisdom is abstract and brain-bound! Not at all. However, we must be conscious that we can be in a full-blown astral space and still experience things as shaped by the intellectual soul. It is not that our soul is filled with abstract intellectual tokens, but that our soul metamorphoses from state into state, in a kind of choreography of arcanic asanas. If we ask, “How do I transform from one arcanic asana to another?”, we would feel that this is the essential nature of what intellectual thinking is. In our ordinary intellect we also transform from asana to asana, except that most of the soul depth is completely unconscious. We are aware only the symbolic extract at the tip of our focus – the mental image that symbolizes the whole hidden soul context.

All of this amounts to the following warning: just because we are in full-blown astral experience, we shouldn’t imagine that we grasp the soul world in some 'objective' form. And this goes much deeper than the standard warnings for the possible illusions proceeding from our unprocessed desires and traits of character (of which Hermeticism is fully aware).

To see what we’re talking about, consider the following. What would the Hermeticist say when asked, “What is the origin of the arcana?” The answer is clear and correct – these are the archetypal manifestations of the Divine Mind. However, if we try to feel this with the needed depth (and not only as a general truth), we’ll have to admit that in that region we’re already bordering on the inexplicable, on the mysterious. It is not that Hermeticism postulates this bordering as some hard Kantian divide. Far from it. Hermeticism is evolutionary open. Yet, this mysterious region is the kind of upper bound to which Western occultism effectively reaches. How this mysterious core is experienced and looked upon depends on whether the flavor of Hermeticism is Christ-oriented (like with VT) or is Christless (like in Bardon). In any case, we can schematically represent things in this way:

Image

Please note once again that what we present here concerns true supersensible experience – actual existence in the soul strata of reality. Nevertheless, it also strangely resembles the way we grasp our intellectual life. And this shouldn’t be surprising in the face of what has been described so far. In our thinking life we build a kind of mental fractal, starting with some fundamental (axiomatic) concepts and building on them into the manifold language. Something analogous happens in the Hermetic experience of the supersensible, except that it is translated into true soul space. The Arcanic soul asanas are like the axioms or letters of existence (the God given building blocks), and the details of creation are like tracing these axiomatic patterns into their manifold interplays. This is why this stage of initiation is called (including by Steiner) learning to read the occult script.

If we try to get behind the axioms of mathematics, through the axioms, we fail. Anything that we derive from them throws us into the manifold combinations. In the same way, we cannot shift to Imagination by simply doing more intellectual thinking. This is a core flavor of the Hermetic soul stance. To move away from the manifoldness and abstraction, we seek our being in the Arcanic soul asanas. However, we cannot reach behind these asanas by applying them (transforming through them) in new combinations. This leads us down into manifoldness again. Thus, the Christ-oriented hermeticism seeks the mystical union with the Logos as the only sensible way to reach deeper into the origin of the Arcane. The whole question now is, can we even say something about that experience?

In 1879 something significant takes place. It’s not about the personality of Rudolf Steiner, but about the recognition of an objective milestone in the collective development of humanity. Now Wisdom pours Inspiratively from the spiritual worlds in a way that the spiritual soul can grasp. We should be clear that we’re dealing with something new here. Even the old Rosicrucians, who were also largely in the Hermetic stream but brought the realization of the Christ impulse to the highest levels possible at the time, were still dominated by the intellectual soul and its Arcanic asanas.

To make the transition to the new and higher form of cognition, we need to consider in full seriousness the needed inner inversion on which Steiner was always stressing (for example, here, where it is called ‘reversal’). Not only that we need to understand what this means, but we also should very clearly understand why it clashes with the disposition of the intellectual soul.

To understand this transition, we need to consider the two cones touching at the tip in full seriousness. If we proceed from within the Hermetic stream, we’re primed to expect the spiritual soul to manifest as some even more unified wholeness, which allows us to live in the mysterious core. But in reality, something seemingly opposite happens. Our soul is torn apart. Instead of monolithic unity, it becomes the arena of multiplicity of beings. This is the critical thing. If we consider everything only from within the intellectual soul (I repeat – even if we are in full-blown Cosmic experience, metamorphosing through Arcanic soul-asanas), this multiplicity will immediately be mistaken for something threatening, as something dragging us down to the secondary, tertiary, etc., manifoldness of the Arcane.

Now consider what happens when the initiate in this new domain of experience precipitates concepts and communicates them? Well, in the first approximation, they’ll be seen as mere intellectual metaphysics. For the hermeticist, this ‘initiate’ is delving into the secondary, tertiary, etc. manifoldness. He hasn’t even reached the major Arcana! Those who are a little more positively predisposed (as VT is) would say, “I completely accept this as valid and maybe even correct etheric vision. However, as far as the depths of the soul are concerned, we need to retrace our existence through the major Arcana and into the mystical union with the Logos.” In other words, the hermeticist of the second millennium would have a hard time conceiving that going beyond the Arcanic asanas would present highly manifold experiences.

At the heart of the Michaelic impulse is the gaining of consciousness within the upper cone, where we increasingly grasp our being as a point of balance within Cosmic multiplicity. Of course, this multiplicity is not manifoldness of images (i.e, it’s not external multiplicity). It is the differentiation of the currents of our innermost life, which prove to be gathered from all over the Cosmos. For example, one of the first Michaelic Inspirations is the realization that in our soul life, the Lu-Christ-Ahr streams intermingle. Again – not as some abstract idea, but as actual differentiation (as if Michael’s sword does the differentiation of the threads) of our innermost spiritual life. Such an actual experience can only be had once we pass the inversion point into multiplicity. Conversely, if we are at the threshold of the Arcane and expect that the next step will be the mystical union with the Logos, we practically exclude the upper cone and expect that the lower cone will have an ever-tighter tip. Needless to say, this precludes us from having true understanding of our deeper spiritual being (beyond the Arcane soul-metamorphoses). Such things are subtle but they need to be considered. For example, VT writes:
VT wrote:One ought not to occupy oneself with evil, other than in keeping a certain
distance and a certain reserve, if one wishes to avoid the risk of paralysing the
creative élan and a still greater risk—that of furnishing arms to the powers of
evil. One can grasp profoundly, i.e. intuitively, only that which one loves.
Love is the vital element of profound knowledge, intuitive knowledge. Now,
one cannot love evil. Evil is therefore unknowable in its essence. One can
understand it only at a distance, as an observer of its phenomenology.
On one hand, cautioning about preoccupying oneself with evil is completely valid. This is the same disease as those who can’t stop feeding on conspiracy theories. Yet, if we believe that evil can only be studied from a distance (as an observer of its phenomenology), we’ll never suspect that this evil is inseparably intermingled in our very spiritual blood. And it is true that we know only that which we love. It stands to reason that we should not love evil for its manifestations. However, even evil has Divine origins in the Tree of Life. Thus, we can know the Divine concealed in it. So it is clear – if we want to know evil only from a distance (by recognizing its external effects), we implicitly bar our way to true Michaelic self-knowledge, because to gain the latter, we must pass through the pinhole and have our inner being decomposed. Then our soul becomes the stage of a Cosmic Drama where macrocosmic spiritual beings push and pull the first-person flow of becoming in certain directions, while we are only a fine point of balance that leans and gives greater way to one or another.

So, even if we put aside the concrete question of VT for a moment, everything above can still be considered and internalized. It is not difficult to see that it does apply to most of what has become Western occultism. From biographic notes, we can see that VT started his spiritual journey in Hermeticism before he encountered Steiner. But we can also see how the Hermetic thread remained running parallel through his life and ultimately became dominant once again. As such, we can appreciate the masterful teaching of the Arcane asanas. We can literally learn to swim in the astral waters free from the body by absorbing this Hermetic Wisdom. Yet, it still seems that he couldn’t reach a tipping point. The Christ remains veiled in the mysterious core asymptotically approached in the Arcane soul-asanas. One may say, “Well, where VT stops, the Michaelic consciousness of the multiplicity in the higher spiritual world (Devachan), beings.” Yet, the trouble is that without knowing about this upper cone from another source, we’re unlikely to ever overcome the sense of existence implied in the lower cone. Not only that, but even the idea of it will be found antipathetic, as one would hardly be able to overcome the sense that it drags him back down into manifoldness.

We should feel that since the event of 1879, the way Steiner could speak of the spiritual realities is different than anything that could be found in the past traditions. Yes, surely one can always strike it out as mere metaphysical speculations or, at best, multiply refracted etheric visions, but if we are willing to follow, it is clear that such communications proceed from actual living together with the streams of beings. All traditions have spoken about such beings, but through the Michaelic impulse, we attain to a supersensible stance that allows us to live as a conscious spirit within the multiplicity of spirits. For example, take something like “The Spirits of Wisdom poured from themselves the etheric body of man.” For a person in ordinary consciousness, this is simply a fantastic image. One doesn’t even know what to do with it. We do not perceive Spirits of Wisdom, nor an etheric body, let alone one pouring into the other. For the Hermeticist, things could be more substantial. They can accept this as a valid etheric vision, but ultimately, they would say, “Yeah, but you are forgetting about Oneness – that is, the fundamental life of the Soul within the Arcane asanas. What you say may be correct, but it ultimately concerns the manifoldness of the created Cosmos, not the tracing back to the original Divine.” Only when we seek to align our first-person experiences with those of the multiplicity of higher spirits can we find the true origin of the images, which reflect direct experiences.

Finally, I think it becomes much more comprehensible why one could feel an appeal in the Church mothership. We should simply get in the shoes of a Hermetic initiate who asymptotically seeks the Christ experience within the mysterious core. All the details of spiritual science are certainly interesting, but they feel as breaking down the Arcane into manifoldness. As such, the Church feels like an ally, because it preserves the mystical attitude toward the Divine.

I want to emphasize that none of this is written with ill feelings toward VT. From what I can feel about his soul, he has been completely sincere and idealistic in everything he did. I only see it that he could not reach the tipping point from the Hermetic tradition to the new influx of Michaelic Inspiration. He absorbed as much as he could from spiritual science, but in the end, it felt fragmentary compared to the alive and warm unity of the Arcane asanas in soul space encircling the central mystery. In that way, he could not reach actual consciousness of the Devachan, where we can only know ourselves as a spirit embedded in the superimposed flow of multiplicity of spirits. As such, at the upper edge of the Imaginative world, he could only anticipate the Logos in mystical fervor.

PS: One may object that VT has spoken about Imagination, Inspiration, and Intuition. And this is true. In fact, I find his explanation of Inspiration as “thinking together” very apt. The fact, however, is that these modes of cognition can be understood even in our ordinary consciousness, because as we know, there’s always something of them present at any point of existence. It is a whole other thing when this Inspiration reaches such magnitude that we experience how the hierarchies think our flow of becoming at different scales. I think it is easy to agree that such kinds of experiences and their descriptions can hardly be found in VT’s work. There are plenty of references to the members of the hierarchies, but they still sound in the more traditional Christian way, as entities, much like John had to still depict the beings of the Apocalypse.
You make a really excellent point about the surprise of manifoldness as one enters the spiritual world. As with most of your other posts, I found myself nodding along to everything being said, up until your assessment of Tomberg in the light of these observations, which in my opinion is simply incorrect. I do wonder to what extent the opinions of Tomberg being expressed here and in the broader Anthroposophical polemic around him have been informed by a full investigation of his work and biography. For instance, you quote Tomberg on the dangers of occupying oneself with evil and then provide an explanation as to how this view is understandable but limited. Have you perhaps not encountered the following passage from one of the letters to Bernhard Martin?:
At this point, intimately, friend to friend, I would like to whisper something in your ear. What do you think is happening when the devil, as a tempter, becomes null? He becomes a friend to man, a devoted friend. The gospel says of Christ Jesus that after he resisted the temptations in the wilderness, the angels tended him. What does this mean? Recalling that the angels had been devotedly tending him right along, that they had never forsaken him, it means that the "angels" mentioned in the verse as devotedly tending him after the temptations had been overcome were the transformed temptations themselves!

Not only do we human beings have no cause to fear the devil--or better, to fear any and all devils (Mephisto, Beelzebub, Samael, etc.)--but, quite to the contrary, shining before us is the great hope that sometime... on some occasion... after all is said and done... we may liberate the devil himself from temptation and redeem him from his devilry. Indeed, we can do no greater service to the devil than successfully resist temptation. To whom do you think Job owed his later happiness, after having withstood his trials? To God? Well, of course, for all good things come from God. But by whose hands was all the suffering and loss of Job's time of trial made good once more? This I have whispered in your ear.


Thus we see how Tomberg's views on evil were perfectly consistent with Steiner, who himself on numerous occasions spoke of certain secrets of evil that could not be revealed at the present moment in time.

As to Tomberg's relationship to the Hermetic tradition, I believe your assessment is actually backwards. While it might appear at first glance that Tomberg regressed back into the astrally constrained framework of his pre-Anthroposophical biography, a deeper investigation reveals this biographical element to be a karmic thread brought to full development in the carefully executed actions of Tomberg's later biography. Through recasting the crucial developments of his life's middle period in Hermetic garb, he is on the one hand providing an indication of his spiritual identity and on the other hand pointing to the karmic stream to which this individuality belongs and moreover to its connection with things that will unfold in the 6th post-Atlantean epoch. The Egyptian cultural epoch was a transition from the living thought of the 1st epoch to the completely dead thought of the 4th. In this epoch (the Egyptian) there was neither living thought nor completely dead thought. The mummy (and "mummy knowledge") was the tangible manifestation of this fact within the spiritual practices of the time. It is during our time, the 5th cultural epoch, when the reversal of this pattern is to take place - a kind of reverse mummification, which is in fact nothing more than what is expressed in the phrase "Lazarus, Come Forth." Far from wallowing in the astrally-bound mystical warmth of the Hermetic soul asanas, further tied up within the straight jacket of the intellectual soul, Tomberg is showing the very means by with 4th and 3rd epochs come into dynamic interplay in the reversed recapitulation that is to ensue.

Regarding your postscript: have you read any of Tomberg's pre-Catholic work? These writings are absolutely saturated with descriptions of the kind that you find Tomberg unable to arrive at in his later work. This is no inability but a deliberate choice.
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Federica
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Federica »

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 2:52 pm Since you've asked specifically about the anti-pope comment, I will comment on it. This is simply a restatement in slightly different words of Steiner's express wishes not to be treated as a figure of religious veneration. Steiner of course knew that people would do this and that it would become an impediment both to their own spiritual development and to the general progress of spiritual science.

Ok. Then we can just as well give up all written communication, if we can pick any sentence and unread all it says.
I really, really would be interested in understanding how such a mode of thinking can come about, in a mind. We have explicit reproach here, directed personally to Steiner, not to what the Anthroposophical Society made of Anthroposophy after his death. There is deep disappointment, to say the least, towards the founder of spiritual science and his pretentions, and the accusation that he, Rudolf Steiner, requires others to faithfully believe personal and psychological experiences....

One can argue for ages about what one is not informed about, and should read. But these thoughts are there! Tomberg expressed them! He has completely failed to understand spiritual science! And what you say is baffling and defies reason. Indeed, you have elaborated these things many times already, but never before such a level of denial has been reached, because never before words such as these have been in question. That in face of such words you have the gut to stick to your position, and Ashvin to remain silent, frankly.... it's unbelievable.

Tomberg wrote:Also, spiritual science never existed because the essential criteria for every science must be that it can be tested, and that it applies universally. In reality, relating to the religious element, it was liberal theology or ‘theology on its own initiative’, and in an anthropological or psychological sense, a generalisation of personal, psychological experiences. Whilst the experiences themselves are mystical they cannot claim a status that is scientific – universally applicable or verifiable. It follows that so-called ‘spiritual science’ can only be psychologically convincing on the basis of a faithful endorsement by a particular group of people, objectively, however only on the basis of trust in the account of the witness, i.e. authority. No pope has ever demanded of mankind such an extent of trust as the ‘spiritual scientist’ or initiate Rudolf Steiner. The pontiffs represent tradition with hundreds of witnesses, whilst the ‘spiritual scientist’ draws on his own experiences and their interpretations and not out of tradition, and whether intentional or not, demands an authority which rivals that of the Pope. Alas, like the anti-Pope.
Spiritual Science does not need any organization resembling the ancient churches, because it appeals to every single person. Every single person can, out of their own conscience and sound reason, visualize what Spiritual Science delivers and its results and can, from this perspective, confess to Spiritual Science. Rudolf Steiner
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Rodriel Gabrez »

Federica wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 6:17 pm
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 2:52 pm Since you've asked specifically about the anti-pope comment, I will comment on it. This is simply a restatement in slightly different words of Steiner's express wishes not to be treated as a figure of religious veneration. Steiner of course knew that people would do this and that it would become an impediment both to their own spiritual development and to the general progress of spiritual science.

Ok. Then we can just as well give up all written communication, if we can pick any sentence and unread all it says.
I really, really would be interested in understanding how such a mode of thinking can come about, in a mind. We have explicit reproach here, directed personally to Steiner, not to what the Anthroposophical Society made of Anthroposophy after his death. There is deep disappointment, to say the least, towards the founder of spiritual science and his pretentions, and the accusation that he, Rudolf Steiner, requires others to faithfully believe personal and psychological experiences....

One can argue for ages about what one is not informed about, and should read. But these thoughts are there! Tomberg expressed them! He has completely failed to understand spiritual science! And what you say is baffling and defies reason. Indeed, you have elaborated these things many times already, but never before such a level of denial has been reached, because never before words such as these have been in question. That in face of such words you have the gut to stick to your position, and Ashvin to remain silent, frankly.... it's unbelievable.

Tomberg wrote:Also, spiritual science never existed because the essential criteria for every science must be that it can be tested, and that it applies universally. In reality, relating to the religious element, it was liberal theology or ‘theology on its own initiative’, and in an anthropological or psychological sense, a generalisation of personal, psychological experiences. Whilst the experiences themselves are mystical they cannot claim a status that is scientific – universally applicable or verifiable. It follows that so-called ‘spiritual science’ can only be psychologically convincing on the basis of a faithful endorsement by a particular group of people, objectively, however only on the basis of trust in the account of the witness, i.e. authority. No pope has ever demanded of mankind such an extent of trust as the ‘spiritual scientist’ or initiate Rudolf Steiner. The pontiffs represent tradition with hundreds of witnesses, whilst the ‘spiritual scientist’ draws on his own experiences and their interpretations and not out of tradition, and whether intentional or not, demands an authority which rivals that of the Pope. Alas, like the anti-Pope.
“Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26). Jesus Christ is telling us to hate our families and life itself. This is patently obvious from the text, and to pretend otherwise is a baffling defiance of reason.
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AshvinP
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by AshvinP »

Cleric wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 2:41 pm Finally, I think it becomes much more comprehensible why one could feel an appeal in the Church mothership. We should simply get in the shoes of a Hermetic initiate who asymptotically seeks the Christ experience within the mysterious core. All the details of spiritual science are certainly interesting, but they feel as breaking down the Arcane into manifoldness. As such, the Church feels like an ally, because it preserves the mystical attitude toward the Divine.

I want to emphasize that none of this is written with ill feelings toward VT. From what I can feel about his soul, he has been completely sincere and idealistic in everything he did. I only see it that he could not reach the tipping point from the Hermetic tradition to the new influx of Michaelic Inspiration. He absorbed as much as he could from spiritual science, but in the end, it felt fragmentary compared to the alive and warm unity of the Arcane asanas in soul space encircling the central mystery. In that way, he could not reach actual consciousness of the Devachan, where we can only know ourselves as a spirit embedded in the superimposed flow of multiplicity of spirits. As such, at the upper edge of the Imaginative world, he could only anticipate the Logos in mystical fervor.

PS: One may object that VT has spoken about Imagination, Inspiration, and Intuition. And this is true. In fact, I find his explanation of Inspiration as “thinking together” very apt. The fact, however, is that these modes of cognition can be understood even in our ordinary consciousness, because as we know, there’s always something of them present at any point of existence. It is a whole other thing when this Inspiration reaches such magnitude that we experience how the hierarchies think our flow of becoming at different scales. I think it is easy to agree that such kinds of experiences and their descriptions can hardly be found in VT’s work. There are plenty of references to the members of the hierarchies, but they still sound in the more traditional Christian way, as entities, much like John had to still depict the beings of the Apocalypse.

Thanks, Cleric, for providing another fascinating presentation of the inner dynamics along the gradient, which is something we must all seriously contemplate. These are invaluable ways for us to become more sensitive to our own orientation within the intellectual soul, and what might be holding us back from discovering the spiritual multiplicity that weaves invisibly within our ego life. Even if not directly applicable to VT, it helps us see how many varied approaches of Western occultism have taken shape in the last centuries, and that should also help us feel in what particular soul currents we may be swimming when contemplating the occult sciences. Everything depends on us getting a more and more refined sense of how our soul life stretches along this Cosmic gradient and is always tempted to fortify within its axiomatic basis at any given time.

What you have laid out here does seem to harmonize many facts surrounding VT's biography and some of his quotes. I can see how this closely overlaps with what was previously cautioned about Martinus, as well, although I'm sure you would acknowledge key differences between him and VT. For one thing, the kind of inner experience we can attain when meditatively working with VT's arcane images is not much different from what we may experience when working through a presentation such as this one, i.e., we start to concretely feel the characteristic dispositions of the soul that stretch across many different lines of inquiry and ways of being.

At the same time, what Rodriel presents still feels to harmonize most of the facts as well. There is something to be said for the idea that his post-Catholic emphasis on exploring spiritual space through the axiomatic basis of arcane asanas, asymptotically approaching the mysterious core of the Logos, was a deliberate choice. In other words, he was not contemplating the structure of reality and saying, "It is simply impossible to develop an objective and verifiable understanding of what manifold spiritual relations act as carrier waves for the transformations between arcane asanas in our Cosmic soul space, since we drift into uniform mystical union as soon as we try to venture beyond the soul asanas." Rather, he was saying, "When one attempts to develop such an objective understanding through higher-order Devachanic consciousness (beyond the upper threshold of the Imaginative), it will inevitably be reduced to intellectual combinatorics by the souls that receive the descriptions, and we will inevitably end up with a spiritual science that competes with natural science as a parallel track of combinatorics, just as we have ended up with esoteric societies that compete with the Church through their theological combinatorics." Therefore, VT may feel that whatever is discovered through such Devachanic consciousness cannot become the emphasis of public esotericism because there is no practical way for it to benefit humanity at this stage.

The fact is that we would be hard-pressed to find ways of contesting this general feeling. Who can we concretely point to within Anthroposophy, in the decades following Steiner, who seemed to be speaking from direct and fully conscious Inspiration? Who can we point to who elaborated the Inspired results of Steiner's investigations in a novel way? We only need to look at some of VT's critics, like Prokofieff, to see how the Inspired and Intuitive dynamics became an exercise in combinatorics, and then it is also easy to understand why such souls would feel threatened by VT and his arcane meditative approach, painting him as an enemy of Steiner and spiritual science.

At the same time, we should be clear that it is a completely separate question whether VT evaluated this "inevitably" properly. And I think there are significant reasons why we could say "inevitably" is too strong a judgment in this case, even if it seemed that way from outer appearances of esoteric societies, and we can recognize how such a stance can easily act as a justification to retain our familiar stance and disposition within the intellectual soul, transforming through arcane asanas that feel to be mostly a matter of personal growth, because we feel there is no other choice. It can set up a de facto boundary between the spheres of Imagination and Inspiration, such that the latter feels increasingly threatening to the soul's axiomatic basis of arcane asanas. Then, when we come across a truly Inspired soul artistically speaking of objective spiritual relations, like Steiner or otherwise, we may dismiss it as mere secondary and tertiary aspects of the Arcana.

Generally, though, I'm keeping an open mind to both ways of seeing VT's biography and work. I look forward to perhaps some further discussion of that using concrete examples. I think we all acknowledge that we won't find those examples in the post-Anthroposophical work, although we may not agree on the reasons why.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Federica
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Federica »

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 6:46 pm “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26). Jesus Christ is telling us to hate our families and life itself. This is patently obvious from the text, and to pretend otherwise is a baffling defiance of reason.
Yes, exactly - you take Tomberg's bitter words of disappointment and misjudgment as Gospel.
That's plain denial of the spiritual scientific spirit.
Spiritual Science does not need any organization resembling the ancient churches, because it appeals to every single person. Every single person can, out of their own conscience and sound reason, visualize what Spiritual Science delivers and its results and can, from this perspective, confess to Spiritual Science. Rudolf Steiner
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 7:28 pm Yes, exactly - you take Tomberg's bitter words of disappointment and misjudgment as Gospel.
That's plain denial of the spiritual scientific spirit.
We disagree on the subject of Tomberg and Anthropsophy, and that's quite alright. I look forward to discussing other topics with you on this forum, on which we'll perhaps see more eye to eye.
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Cleric
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Post by Cleric »

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 5:09 pm ...
AshvinP wrote: Tue Oct 14, 2025 7:05 pm ...
Thank you, Rodriel and Ashvin.

Rodriel, I’ve already signaled that I cannot speak from thorough knowledge of VTs lifelong work, but in this case, this is not even necessary because at the core of the discussion is a more principal question, which could apply to anyone else. We’re basically speaking about why anyone who has penetrated spiritual science sufficiently would decide to step back and strip it down, so to speak, such that it can more easily fit into an existing stream. I think on this point at least, we are all in agreement. You yourself repeatedly said that Steiner has blasted out a lot, and VT has basically preserved only the necessary essence, and the RCC is the best suitable soil where this essence should flourish.

I have no problem seeing that decision as deliberate. Yet, when we speak of such profound events, we should also see things in the corresponding depth. Habitually, one may imagine that VT has developed Devachanic consciousness, surveyed the evolutionary situation, then weighed the facts, and basically decided: “The bulk of the impulse of spiritual science blasts off prematurely. The souls are simply not ready for this. We need something much more structured, well-organized, within which the souls should be nourished until they mature enough to go deeper.” However, as we often emphasize, it is simply not the case that higher consciousness is developed as if reaching a certain level and then everything there becomes visible and objectively known. Instead, we should bear in mind that the human soul in itself is the arena where many spiritual eyes gaze through. Cosmic beings compete for dominance. Each has a certain intuition about what the first-person continuation of the movie of existence should be and pushes in that direction. So when we say that someone took a deliberate decision, we should also consider the deeper context, this arena where Cosmic forces battle. One continuation of the inner movie sees man developing as a free being with thorough consciousness of his Cosmic structure. Another superimposed continuation whispers, “It is too soon. It will come out stillborn. We need the maternal womb for some more time.”

So we see, having spiritual cognition doesn’t simply give us the facts on a plate. Each one of us is centered within a unique constellation of Cosmic influences. Higher consciousness consists in the gradual delamination of these influences. There are countless ways in which these influences can manifest in various proportions, some can remain stubbornly merged with the background, and so on. Seen in this way, it is clear that one can pierce even beyond the Imaginative and have certain Inspirations and Intuitions, yet this doesn’t yet guarantee in what proportions the influences are superimposed in our perspective. Then, it is from within such a constellation that a deliberate decision is made. The decision basically assesses which movie continuation pushes with the greatest weight. Thus, the ‘inability’ is something far more complicated; it is not a simple milestone that is reached or not reached along a linear axis.

The reason I say that it’s not strictly important whether we speak here out of full knowledge of VTs legacy is because the above question concerns first of all us here and now. We are VT at this moment. It is our soul where the above Cosmic battle is waged in many different forms. We all have our Inspirations and Intuitions, no matter how limited they might be, and now we feel a certain weighing of the facts. Is a deeper knowledge of our Cosmic dimension premature? Would I be better off by attending mass, receiving communion, and so on?

We can be even more specific. For example, does the knowledge of the Ahr, Lu, Christ, and all other influences of the hierarchies that are intermingled and weigh in the contextual flow of my destiny actually help me? Am I a freer spiritual being when I have internalized this deeper knowledge and I am actually vigilant for the kinds of streams that I lean into, and eventually attain to the degrees of freedom that allow me to navigate them with clear consciousness? Or I’m better by considering myself a simple soul, avoiding sin and seeking the Love of the Divine, and eventually expanding my consciousness a little further in soul space and its lawfulness?

When we look at things in this way, can we even point out what of the spiritual scientific impulse must be preserved and planted in the Church? For example, if we take the MoT as an instance of the proper continuation of this impulse (I apologize if I’m speaking again out of incomplete knowledge), it is difficult for me to see what is there due to the Michaelic spiritual scientific impulse. I would say that almost entirely the book can be written as resting on the Hermetic foundations. To me, the Michaelic impulse is in its very essence the described delamination of the ego, which alone leads us to true higher cognition, self-knowledge about our Cosmic constitution, and freedom. If we strip this away as premature, then what precisely remains that is worthy of being called such an impulse, and which is not already contained in the streams of Western Christian occultism?
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Federica
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Steiner wrote:The Consciousness Soul was destined to emerge. As a bulwark against the Consciousness Soul, Rome wished to preserve, and still preserves today, a culture based on suggestionism, a culture that is calculated to arrest man's progress towards the development of the Consciousness Soul and keep him at the level of the Rational or Intellectual Soul. This is the real battle which Rome wages against the tide of progress. Rome wishes to cling to an outlook which is valid for the Rational Soul at a time when mankind seeks to progress towards the development of the Consciousness Soul.

From Symptom to Reality in Modern History - GA 185 Retrieved from the Rudolf Steiner Archive


One has to choose. If Tomberg's every expression is my Gospel, I am not reinterpreting, reelivening, or reforming Spiritual Science. I am instead working against its impulse. And this state of affairs is not fascinating, it's not both/and, can't be meditated away, can't be undone by becoming more sensitive, can't be psychologized away or similar. It has to be recognized, and one has to choose, in freedom.



Here's the blog of a big fan of Tomberg, who used to call himself an anthroposopher. As his admiration for the work of Tomberg was growing, at least he realized he could no longer have it both ways:

Valentin Tomberg’s Renunciation of Anthroposophy
Spiritual Science does not need any organization resembling the ancient churches, because it appeals to every single person. Every single person can, out of their own conscience and sound reason, visualize what Spiritual Science delivers and its results and can, from this perspective, confess to Spiritual Science. Rudolf Steiner
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 6:33 am
Steiner wrote:The Consciousness Soul was destined to emerge. As a bulwark against the Consciousness Soul, Rome wished to preserve, and still preserves today, a culture based on suggestionism, a culture that is calculated to arrest man's progress towards the development of the Consciousness Soul and keep him at the level of the Rational or Intellectual Soul. This is the real battle which Rome wages against the tide of progress. Rome wishes to cling to an outlook which is valid for the Rational Soul at a time when mankind seeks to progress towards the development of the Consciousness Soul.

From Symptom to Reality in Modern History - GA 185 Retrieved from the Rudolf Steiner Archive


One has to choose. If Tomberg's every expression is my Gospel, I am not reinterpreting, reelivening, or reforming Spiritual Science. I am instead working against its impulse. And this state of affairs is not fascinating, it's not both/and, can't be meditated away, can't be undone by becoming more sensitive, can't be psychologized away or similar. It has to be recognized, and one has to choose, in freedom.



Here's the blog of a big fan of Tomberg, who used to call himself an anthroposopher. As his admiration for the work of Tomberg was growing, at least he realized he could no longer have it both ways:

Valentin Tomberg’s Renunciation of Anthroposophy
One must remember that Steiner's earthly work was done a century ago, when conditions were quite different than today. They are of course the same in many respects, and the overarching movements of world evolution are still the same; but many of the details have indeed changed. In Steiner's time, there was as of yet little danger of the intellectual soul becoming atrophied like we are beginning to see today. For the consciousness soul to unfold properly, it must occur atop a fully developed, intellectual soul. We of course find quotes like the following from Steiner on this point:
Essential as it is first of all to undergo the discipline of sound, reasoned thinking before attempting to enter the higher worlds, it is equally essential to rise above this ordinary thinking to immediate apprehension. And just because it is necessary to have this faculty of immediate apprehension in the higher world, the preparatory training in logical thinking is essential, for otherwise our feelings would quite certainly lead us into error. With ordinary intellectual thinking we are incapable of judging rightly in the higher world, but equally we are incapable of judging rightly in that world if we have not first trained our intellectual thinking in the physical world, and then, at a suitable moment, are able to be oblivious of it. Some people consider that this characteristic quality of the higher kind of thinking, the thinking of the heart, is a reason for discarding ordinary logic altogether. They say that as it has eventually to be forgotten there is no need to assimilate it first of all. But in saying this they disregard the fact that logical thinking is a training for making oneself a different man. In logical thinking we experience above all a kind of conscience, and by developing that we establish in the soul a certain sense of responsibility towards truth and untruth, without which nothing can be achieved in the higher worlds.
So while, yes, it is true that the intellectual soul which seeks keep the soul forever in its own element is regressive, forces which work to erode the intellectual soul are equally regressive in a different way. Rome is the primary defender of the intellectual soul in our day, in a time when this faculty is being eroded from all sides. The situation has changed, and we can't simply take every word Steiner ever said about the world of the 1910s as a rock solid guide to our current world. And even when we do take Steiner's statements in isolation, we also must remember that a critique of something is not an argument for the absolute rejection of that thing but an invitation for its change/transformation.

Regarding Roger Buck, obviously my take is that he has fallen into the same trap as Prokofieff, but from the opposite direction. I know you disagree - we needn't go any further down that road.
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