Tomberg and Anthroposophy

Any topics primarily focused on metaphysics can be discussed here, in a generally casual way, where conversations may take unexpected turns.
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AshvinP
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Federica wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 5:56 pm
AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 5:46 pm I don't see any either/or in the bold way. What he implored specifically was not to found an organization that becomes the sole framework that formats the soul's esoteric striving. The idea of remaining completely isolated and silent, on the other hand, simply does not harmonize with his other comments and, more importantly, his activities. Just as little as I think he would fall into the elementary mistake of imagining we can skip directly from the intellectual soul to the spirit self, do I think he would fall into the mistake of such a performative contradiction between what he is doing and what he is saying. If we take it as part of our spiritual task to emulate the deeds of VT to some extent, then clearly we will be sharing our supersensible insights with others through various media such as books, articles, online forums, etc. He surely advises souls to be cautious with their sharing of supersensible perceptions or ideas and to let those perceptions and ideas mature in the soul before they are communicated, which is also advice we find from Steiner (again, this forum is a great example of such a cautious approach, where our explorations revolve around the core inner foundations). And it is surely advice that the current Anthroposophical Society, especially as it manifests on online platforms and certain publications, with endless speculation about Ahriman's incarnation, the 8th sphere, the previous and future incarnations of various individualities, ego-less human beings, etc., could take more to heart.


Ashvin,
Tomberg says that "tradition lives not thanks to organisations", and that "organizations" - organizations in general, not only newly founded ones! ................................ - "are embalmers and mummifiers". If you refuse to read it, I am afraid there's nothing I can do for you. You will have to remain in your contorted attempts to unread what is there.

What do you understand "tradition" to mean in this context, Federica, and do you disagree that it does not live thanks to organizations?
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Cleric
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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AshvinP wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 12:50 pm Yes, but it feels like something is still being missed here. You are describing the poles of our current age, along which the modern soul is stretched, so to speak. That implies that there must exist a gradient between these poles. The new doesn't come in as if we have ascended to the next floor of a building and left the old on the previous, but rather, more of the whole building starts to grow around the current floor. This is a persistent theme of the Gospels as well, that the old and the new are coming into dynamic tension, and the former should seek loving and creative ways of accommodating the latter.

At this stage of evolution, it almost becomes irrelevant to sharply distinguish religious organizations from other organizations. That is why I was focusing on the functions of such organizations, from the perspective of the seeking soul. The fact is that many organizations serve as mediators, guardians, etc., of revealed knowledge of the past for such souls. In a short time, we can also speak of the Society as guarding revealed knowledge of the past, on which souls are dependent for their inner orientation. Yes, it will speak to these souls of the future epochs and their developments, but that will sound almost as nebulous as the 'second coming', the 'millennial kingdom', the 'final judgment', and so on, for those souls who fail to develop direct 'lines of communication' with the spiritual worlds. These non-religious organizations that we feel have moved on from all the shortcomings of the religious ones, will soon be in a similar position to the Churches and therefore in need of spiritual enlivenment if they aren't to rigidify and degenerate completely.

For sure, as long as any institution actively denies the here and now possibilities of the new man, it can't serve as a proper support, let alone the exclusive carrier, of the new Impulse. The Churches have a long way to go in that respect. Yet they aren't going to simply disappear from the face of the Earth any time soon. They will remain central hubs that attract religiously-inclined souls for much of the new age. What good does it serve to ignore this fact or to ignore the opportunities for transforming such hubs from the inside-out? Yes, it often seems difficult to imagine how this will happen. But at the same time, I am often surprised by what I read in the daily news. Things are not unfolding in any strictly linear or predictable way. If we axiomatically rule out all such possibilities from the beginning, then we simply make it more difficult for such institutions to be leveraged in the service of the new man.

(what you say about BD and the Orthodox Church also fits in well with Rodriel's observation/distinction between the latter and the RCC)
I want to remind of something, which all of us know, but it’s worth reiterating.

A new life begins, the body grows largely in accord with the impulses that the soul brings and the etheric life it attracts around itself. Every new form appears as a meeting point between the accumulated wisdom of the past and the new possibilities that the spirit seeks. The person matures, new experiences impress, then dies, and an empty husk is left behind. Quite the same principle holds also when we speak of organizations, religions, countries, empires, and so on. We speak of ‘Founding Fathers’, ‘Church Fathers’, etc. With powerful individualities, a new life is breathed into the Earthly matrix, which grows around them. Yet, here we can also observe maturation and then decline. Why? For the same reason this happens to the body. At a certain stage, the form can no longer serve the evolving subtle aspects. It becomes a rigid hindrance. Yet, just like hermit crabs, the old husks can be reutilized by those beings adapted to them.

This is something we should be very conscious about. We should clearly distinguish the inner life and the forms. A Church is a form. It grows through fresh forces, enlivened by inspired souls, then it passes its zenith, and then declines. Why? Because most of the souls already need new forms if they are to develop the evolving degrees of freedom. What about the souls who still need such an environment? Let’s say that a soul is at the level of development that was appropriate for the 14th century. One can say, “So the Church today is right for this soul, because its tenets are not spectacularly different from then.” To an extent, this is so, but it’s also true that the Church today, even if it has preserved its rules and rituals exactly as they were centuries ago, can never be the same. The whole context is different today. Most importantly, the clergy is not the same. There are fewer and fewer truly inspired souls there. The husk has been passed from generation to generation, and today, in our modern world, it has become mostly a way to make a living. Like some make a career in the navy, in sales, and so on, so one can build a career in a religious institution and make a living. I’m not saying that there are no truly faithful and devoted souls, but it’s simply the nature of the times that the old faith can no longer be such a powerful force. We know that for the early Christians, the tenet ‘believe!’ was not a mere intellectual switch. When the soul made that inner conversion, it felt as if a psychedelic rush had been unleashed. It was a true Red Pill. Something really transformed in the soul experience, thus the faith was not in the least a blind belief, as today’s intellectuals imagine. However, just like with psychedelics, repeated experiences seem to diminish the original rush. In the next incarnation, the soul says, “Strange, I took the same dose of faith, but it didn’t get me high. Seems I’ve developed tolerance.” (I hope that these metaphors are taken in the right way!) In fact, the soul is high, however, the experience has been so trivialized that it now feels baseline. So, for such reasons, even the most fervent faith in our days, cannot get one ‘high enough’. The soul yearns for something more, something more real, more intense – true spiritual life.

So I repeat: we need to distinguish the vibrant spiritual life from the husks it leaves behind. We need a kind of ‘radar’ to always seek this inner life where it is active in a certain epoch. When we speak of helping others, we should be clear that we can only help the individual souls. The Church, the husk, cannot be helped. It exists as it is, simply because there are beings that need it as it is. It’s like saying to a hermit crab, “Let’s change your shell with a new fancy one”. The crab replies, “But I don’t want another shell. This fits me quite snuggly.” This is why, even at the beginning, I said that even if a new form is to grow out of the RCC, it would bud out as something new, while the bulk will remain and will keep the brand name.

This is important to understand. Otherwise, we’ll face many disappointments and eventually waste a lot of energy in a direction that has been a lost cause right from the start.

Of course, understanding these principles should in no way make us prejudiced! Every soul deserves individual attention. It would be a great fallacy if we mechanically categorize a person because of the environment he presently occupies. The inverse is also true. Just because someone is found in an organization that seeks the new life, it doesn’t mean that the soul itself shares the ideal. As long as it finds some kind of nourishment there, it will be attracted, and might cause a lot ot headaches too.

So this is another aspect that I find concerning in the Catholic project. It seems that a lot of emphasis is placed on preserving the husk, and even bringing it back to life – the life it once had in the middle ages (when it was a political power). If true spirituality has taught us one thing, it should be – seek the ever-fresh Spring of the Spirit, not the husks it has left behind (BD says: You are not here to pick your forefathers' bones). The Church doesn’t need saving. The souls do. What is needed is for the souls to always be led toward the clean and fresh waters. Wherever there’s water, settlements appear, crops grow, trade flourishes, culture prospers. So we shouldn’t be so concerned about the old forms. If there’s life, there will be a form. But if we have a husk that has been emptied of vibrant life long ago, no matter how much we try to patch it, polish it, and strive to adapt it to the new times, it will remain only fit for hermit crabs.

It can be objected: “But is it not possible for a form to become immortal and metamorphose from glory into glory?” It is possible, when its substance becomes as pliable as Light and can reflect every movement of the Spirit. Here, everyone can seek the answer for themselves. Is the Church-form made of material that can be metamorphosed in such a seamless way? Or is it too rigid to be refurbished, and the spirit needs to grow a new body for itself?
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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PS: I hope it has become clear that what I said doesn't negate the need for a body - organization, community, etc. - in the exact same way we cannot live on Earth without a body. The important thing is that the body is up to the tasks of the spirit. And additionally, to discern when a given body still has potential and can serve its function, or it has run its course.

Also, on the topic that old husks are needed for those who are at the appropriate level, here's another metaphor. In the Bronze Age, the simple soul would dig bronze ore, in the Iron Age - iron ore. In the Golden Age, it will dig gold. Thus, even though the level of conscious development might be corresponding to a past age, the whole environment is different, and also the simple education that the soul needs should be correspondingly adapted.
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Rodriel Gabrez
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Cleric wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 8:44 pm I think that the fact that it is called "Community" already tells a lot. I haven't delved into the details because it hasn't been particularly interesting to me, but as far as I know, it has always been implied to encourage individual development and free thinking, while still providing a certain ceremonial and ritual setting. There's no doubt that there are souls who still cannot give a stable form to their "I"-being through their own forces, thus an external rhythmic scaffold can be necessary to give shape to the soul stream, so to speak. Yet, there's this 'open roof' sense, in which one can feel that they can move further if their forces allow for it. For example, I think that reincarnation is not part of the doctrine, but the priests go through training in SS, thus, since the CC is not dogma-based but encourages free thinking and development, if someone asks about reincarnation, they won't be dismissed. Maybe they'll be given directions to continue their studies with SS. So in this sense, the CC can be called much more a kind of transition ground, where the sacraments can be exercised, but there's no ceiling preventing anyone from going further if they feel called upon. This is obviously different in the traditional Church. That's why it isn't clear to me how the Catholic project is conceived. What is the plan? If I go to the priest and ask about reincarnation, he probably won't say that it is a private concern, but rather he'll simply state that the dogma rejects it, and if I'm to believe in it, I won't be exactly catholic anymore. As such, there's a clear ceiling here, a boundary. Like Federica above, I'm also interested in what 'the plan' really is. It would be rather strange if on one side it needs to be rejected (if the dogma is to remain intact), while on the other side the priest whispers in the ear, "...but you know, even though we have to explicitly reject it before the masses, in your secret chamber you can consider it."
Cleric wrote: Sat Oct 18, 2025 8:44 pm Thanks, I'll have to meditate more on these questions. But to be honest, I'm really confused by what 'the plan' really is.
Your hypothetical scenario of asking the priest about reincarnation is, I think, quite illustrative of the function of the Church. If you ask the priest this question, he will most definitely "correct" you. If he is a good priest, however, he won't tell you that you "aren't exactly Catholic anymore" for believing it. He will strongly reinforce the traditional teaching of the Church and then tell you to search your conscience and ask for God's discernment. He might additionally recommend that you consult the Catechism if you are in need of extremely precise intellectual guidance. You will then find this statement in the Catechism: "One must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience; to deliberately act against it would be to condemn oneself" (CCC 1790). Now, if one's conscience tells him that reincarnation is a fact, this could either mean that one has received a special revelation or that one has been spiritually deceived. This forked potentiality then renders the personal "belief" one of the utmost moral weight, over which one should pray continuously, and which must be subjected to the dogma of the Church in terms of its communication (meaning that it must be kept silent).

One is now at the point of asking precisely what it means to "keep silent." Are the Gospels themselves silent about reincarnation? Yes and no. For those who have gained the ability to see it, they speak constantly about reincarnation but do so without ever explicitly stating it. In this sense, we need look no further than the words read from beside the altar every Sunday. Of course the problem is that people don't see this, and this is precisely why spiritual science was given to humanity. Valentin Tomberg has through his work demonstrated a way to use the pre-existing language to point toward spiritual science without saying the things it explicitly teaches. In doing so he points to the fact that the Consciousness Soul is the narrow opening you have repeatedly mentioned which is inexorably the domain of personal certainty. This is, by the way, the explanation behind Tomberg's baffling statement about building a direct bridge from the Intellectual Soul to the Spirit Self. The Consciousness Soul is the passing-through of a narrow opening at the level of the collectivity of individuals. For this reason, the transition is invisible, or silent. It cannot be seen unless one passes through it oneself. Passing through the opening oneself, done en masse, is the silent unfolding of the Consciousness Soul in the human social organism. (This is much, much different from the way the Intellectual Soul unfolds, itself being an organ of natural understanding and therefore necessarily subject to publicly verifiable standards of objectivity).

"Yes, but we know that spiritual science is meant to be carried out in public. Passing through the narrow opening depends on its open, public dissemination." Correct - it was carried out in public and remains a public spectacle, just as the death and raising of Lazarus was done in public. (After this, the beloved disciple receded into the background.) But in public - under the scrutiny of the naturally perceivable standards of objectivity - was where it was destined to die.

Like I have said several times, the work of Rudolf Steiner remains publicly available and is easier to access than ever before thanks to the internet. While VT's works themselves can nudge people in the direction of spiritual science, as you and others here have rightly pointed out, they don't go all the way. But VT seems to have carefully cultivated the fruits of the second half of his entire life such that people who felt the call of his work would see in it the treasures he buried there and that those not coming to it with an anthroposophical background would look into Steiner's work themselves. All the while, those who never take the initiative to do so are brought closer to personal certainty by the influence of those who have achieved it.
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 8:28 pm Like I have said several times, the work of Rudolf Steiner remains publicly available and is easier to access than ever before thanks to the internet. While VT's works themselves can nudge people in the direction of spiritual science, as you and others here have rightly pointed out, they don't go all the way. But VT seems to have carefully cultivated the fruits of the second half of his entire life such that people who felt the call of his work would see in it the treasures he buried there and that those not coming to it with an anthroposophical background would look into Steiner's work themselves. All the while, those who never take the initiative to do so are brought closer to personal certainty by the influence of those who have achieved it.
Yes, Rodriel, but everything you've written still concerns 'saving the sheep'. This is the part of the 'plan' that I have no problem comprehending.

So there's a farm. The workers operate with well-established cultivation methods, refined over centuries. There's a well-thought-out production pipeline. Then, we observe the apples on the tree, and just when they become ripe, we sneak in and pick them, we save them from the hands of the farmer.

That's OK... somewhat. But how do we expect this to work back on the farmers in any positive way? Wouldn't they simply become outraged for diverting their crop? This is the part of the 'plan' that I find confusing. Of course, we may say, "Well, when the farmers see that the apples we take turn out better in our hands than in theirs, they'll become curious and want to adopt our methods." Yet, this is what I called 'wishful thinking'. Is this really the plan? Or there's something I'm missing?
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Another crucially important lens Tomberg gives us to look through in order to comprehend the importance of Rome is international law. Ashvin mentioned somewhere in the thread recently how strange and unpredictable things have become on the stage of global politics. We must consider the fact that our modern Western form of government, with its major flowering in the European Enlightenment, is a direct result of the Christ Impulse. Modern law is founded on a deep-seated apprehension of the 'I', of the centrality of the human person. As our social structures begin to break down, it is left entirely up to human whim as to whether the I-based foundations of law are upheld. In fact the entire 20th century was a test of the this very fragility in light of the very real possibility of complete degeneracy. I would argue that today the Roman Catholic Church is the only institution guaranteed to uphold the law of the 'I' against the mounting counterforces of the time. This is actually its most important function. Moreover it is through this function that we come to understand what is and what is not a husk to be discarded in the forms of older times. It was through Israel that the Gospel was birthed from within the Law. The old ethnic husk fell away and what remained spiraled together with the globalizing apparatus of the Roman Empire. Rome's husk fell away as well, and what lives now in the Roman Catholic Church is the living continuation of Israel-Rome, which serves as the protector of all that is sensibly perceptible in the known world, from the minutiae of brute fact up to the most sublime conceptual heights of what is capable via the rational intellect. The Roman Catholic Church is the keeper of God's Law (as the entire domain of that which is publicly verifiable) and the defender of the central and most precious entity in this domain: the human person. The human person, as the seat of conscience, must be upheld at all costs, for it is only through this important but vulnerable pinhole of conscience that the Consciousness Soul will have a chance to unfold.
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Cleric wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 9:17 pm
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 8:28 pm Like I have said several times, the work of Rudolf Steiner remains publicly available and is easier to access than ever before thanks to the internet. While VT's works themselves can nudge people in the direction of spiritual science, as you and others here have rightly pointed out, they don't go all the way. But VT seems to have carefully cultivated the fruits of the second half of his entire life such that people who felt the call of his work would see in it the treasures he buried there and that those not coming to it with an anthroposophical background would look into Steiner's work themselves. All the while, those who never take the initiative to do so are brought closer to personal certainty by the influence of those who have achieved it.
Yes, Rodriel, but everything you've written still concerns 'saving the sheep'. This is the part of the 'plan' that I have no problem comprehending.

So there's a farm. The workers operate with well-established cultivation methods, refined over centuries. There's a well-thought-out production pipeline. Then, we observe the apples on the tree, and just when they become ripe, we sneak in and pick them, we save them from the hands of the farmer.

That's OK... somewhat. But how do we expect this to work back on the farmers in any positive way? Wouldn't they simply become outraged for diverting their crop? This is the part of the 'plan' that I find confusing. Of course, we may say, "Well, when the farmers see that the apples we take turn out better in our hands than in theirs, they'll become curious and want to adopt our methods." Yet, this is what I called 'wishful thinking'. Is this really the plan? Or there's something I'm missing?
I can't say that I have any exact knowledge of what "the plan" is supposed to be. However, I imagine the entire operation as a quiet one. At no point do I expect priests to give homilies about reincarnation or old Saturn. At all stages of the process there will be souls in need of the exoteric guardrails. But at the end of the process, the esoteric layer will be collectively understood within the exoteric outer container. The exoteric language will be spoken, but the depth axis will be perceived. That's more of less how I envision it. Now, I certainly foresee there being major bumps along the way. The invisible order producing better fruit will illicit the ire of certain contingents within the old guard, and there will be clashes. St. Joan will be burned at the stake again, many times over, most likely.
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AshvinP
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Cleric wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 8:22 pm PS: I hope it has become clear that what I said doesn't negate the need for a body - organization, community, etc. - in the exact same way we cannot live on Earth without a body. The important thing is that the body is up to the tasks of the spirit. And additionally, to discern when a given body still has potential and can serve its function, or it has run its course.

Also, on the topic that old husks are needed for those who are at the appropriate level, here's another metaphor. In the Bronze Age, the simple soul would dig bronze ore, in the Iron Age - iron ore. In the Golden Age, it will dig gold. Thus, even though the level of conscious development might be corresponding to a past age, the whole environment is different, and also the simple education that the soul needs should be correspondingly adapted.
Could you elaborate a bit on how you see this process of the Church body 'running its course' and Christ spirit 'growing a new body'? Practically, what happens to the EOC and RCC in this scenario, what is 'the plan' from this perspective? Do they remain as 'holding pens' for lagging souls, who can perhaps be reached by more advanced souls on an individual case-by-case basis, but then it truly becomes a case of rescuing such souls from the dying Church body and setting ourselves in opposition to the latter? I have a hard time imagining any way this could play out without esoteric 'communities' declaring war on the Church (almost like an even more intense Protestant reformation), so to speak, if indeed there is no leeway for renewal and adaptation at the institutional level.
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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I'd like to share a few quotes from Steiner in his lecture cycle to the Christian Community, GA 342. These are only meant to add some nuance to his perspective on the topic of religious renewal and the Church. I am perfectly aware of his deep and penetrating criticisms of the Catholic Church in our time and am not at all dismissing those. Yet, as Rodriel indicated above, it helps to look at these topics through many different lenses and try to familiarize ourselves as much as possible with all the nuances of the Church's institutional functions. We can also see how, particularly in the first and second quotes, there is great overlap with what is also expressed through VT in his Catholic period.

***

https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA342/En ... 12p01.html

Now, you see, this is precisely where the Protestant church has arrived at an extraordinarily significant turning point, and even at the turning point where the greatest danger threatens that the Protestant church could end up in an extraordinarily bad position compared to the Catholic church. You see, the Catholic principle has never placed much emphasis on the content of the Gospels; the Catholic principle has always worked with symbolism, even in preaching. And with those Catholic preachers who have really risen to the occasion, you will notice to this day – yes, one might say, today, when Catholicism is really striving for regeneration, even more so – how strongly symbolism is coming to life again, how, so to speak, dogmatic content, certain content about facts and entities of the supersensible life, is clothed in symbols. And there is a full awareness, even among the relatively lower clergy, that the symbolum, when pronounced, penetrates extraordinarily deeply into the soul, much deeper than the dogmatic content, than the doctrinal content and that one can contribute much more to the spread of religious life by expressing the truths of salvation in symbolic form, by giving the symbols a thoroughly pictorial character and not getting involved with the actual teaching content. You know, of course, that the content of the Gospel itself is only the subject of a lecture within the context of the Mass in the Catholic Church, and that the Catholic Church avoids presenting the content of the Gospel as a teaching to the faithful, especially in its preaching. Anyone who can appreciate the power that lies in a renewal of the symbolic content of the sermon will understand that we are indeed at this important turning point today, that the main results of Protestant life in recent centuries have been very, very much put in a difficult and extremely difficult position in relation to the spreading forces of Catholicism.


https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA342/En ... 14a01.html

"Now, you need not think, as has often been said, that I am somehow tainted by Catholicism when I talk about the Catholic Church's worship. I just want to see things objectively and draw your attention to the fact that it is quite impossible to truly cultivate religious life without making the transition to worship, to speaking in the symbolum. No matter how well you know how to convince, how to work through intellectual presentation, in the religious field you will only achieve something if you can let the theoretically presented in your speech fade away into the symbolum in the appropriate places. You must experience the symbolum yourself as a truth, so you should only think of such symbolic representations that are really connected with what is real in the world."


https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA342/En ... 13p01.html

"Another participant: There are some of us who have not yet expected to finish with the theological exams, but want to use the preliminary studies to strive towards this goal, which is to be addressed here.

Rudolf Steiner: Now the question is whether those you are referring to, having realized how necessary the matter is, will not turn to the preaching ministry after all, even if they have so far thought that they would not complete the exam but do something else. Of course not. This is connected with a very general cultural idea. You see, the ideas that Spengler described in his 'Decline of the West' are really more well-founded than one might think. They are so well-founded that one can say that if only cultural tendencies were at work, without a new impact, then what Spengler calculates would come about would come about. We are in the midst of a full decline, in a full current of decline. On the other hand, you must not forget the corruption of culture. The corruption of the general intellectual life is not limited to the more educated classes, but is very widespread. It is actually the case that the majority of the population is affected by it, and the religious impulses that may still have existed in the 70s and 80s have already disappeared among the less educated people today. So we are in the midst of a complete current of decline, and it is hardly possible to get out of it unless religious life as such creates new impulses. And so I certainly believe that those who, having undergone theological studies and having the opportunity to do so, should act as priests. It is necessary that precisely those who have studied theology should act as priests, because we need it so badly.

A participant:... but then also within the church?

Rudolf Steiner: Within the church? I would like to stick to what I have said. You can stay within the church if you can gradually lead the members out of the current church communities; you can therefore turn to the establishment of free congregations. I do not believe that the church as such can be reformed or regenerated in any way, that is not the case. The church community is so corrupted that we can only count on the fact that one leads them out [...] and founds something new with them [...] [further gaps in the transcript]. On the other hand, to think of a reform of the church itself, I may say – this is not just my opinion, but this is an objective realization of the facts – that these church communities are doomed. Except for the Catholic Church, of course, which must be understood in such a way that it is not at all doomed, because it works with extensive means and must therefore be regarded as something completely different."

https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA342/En ... 14p01.html

"What is contained in Catholic dogma goes back to certain forms of older knowledge. It is imagined that between birth and death, the human being passes through seven stages. First, birth itself, then what is called maturing, puberty, then what is called the realization of one's inner self around the age of 20, then the feeling of not corresponding to the world, not being fully human, that is the fourth. And then, isn't it, the gradual growth into the spiritual. These things have then become somewhat blurred, but one imagined the whole human life, including the social one, in seven stages, and one imagined that the human being grows out of the spirit between birth and death. The Catholic Church does not recognize pre-existence in more recent times. There is only one thought of God, and this growing out of the thought of God is presented in seven stages. These seven stages must be counteracted by other forces. Birth is an evolution, maturing is an evolution, and each form of evolution is counteracted by a form of involution: baptism for birth, confirmation for puberty. Every sacrament is the inverse of a natural stage in evolution. One can say that Catholic doctrine presents seven stages of evolution, to which it juxtaposes seven stages of involution, and these are the seven sacraments, four of which are earthly, namely baptism, confirmation, the sacrament of the altar, and penance. These four are as universal as the physical body, etheric body, astral body, and I. As you go higher, you come to the spirit self, the spirit of life and spiritual people. Just as the shining in from the spiritual world, the last three sacraments are those that go into the social: marriage, ordination and extreme unction. The penetration of the spiritual world is expressed in ordination. So these are the seven sacraments, of which the last are extreme unction, ordination and marriage. They are simply the sacraments of the inverse processes for the natural processes that take place for humans, and the corresponding cultic acts are also set up accordingly."
"They only can acquire the sacred power of self-intuition, who within themselves can interpret and understand the symbol... those only, who feel in their own spirits the same instinct, which impels the chrysalis of the horned fly to leave room in the involucrum for antennae yet to come."
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Cleric
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Re: Tomberg and Anthroposophy

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Rodriel Gabrez wrote: Sun Oct 19, 2025 9:39 pm I can't say that I have any exact knowledge of what "the plan" is supposed to be. However, I imagine the entire operation as a quiet one. At no point do I expect priests to give homilies about reincarnation or old Saturn. At all stages of the process there will be souls in need of the exoteric guardrails. But at the end of the process, the esoteric layer will be collectively understood within the exoteric outer container. The exoteric language will be spoken, but the depth axis will be perceived. That's more of less how I envision it. Now, I certainly foresee there being major bumps along the way. The invisible order producing better fruit will illicit the ire of certain contingents within the old guard, and there will be clashes. St. Joan will be burned at the stake again, many times over, most likely.
OK, I think we are getting to the crux of things. Two distinct visions take shape, each of which sees the immediate future of humanity in different ways.

What I'm saying now shouldn't be taken as throwing around esoterically sounding words, and trying to patch together some 'explanation' from them. Everything below can be experienced in full exactness in our spiritual perception. And it is in fact a quite proximate experience.

The Church has the potential to lead the souls toward the pinhole. In more exoteric life, this means to always seek the deep conscience inspired by the Christ, in every act, feeling, and thought. Through a little additional guidance and effort (for ex. MoT), it is possible to develop a truly vivid intuitive experience of the I-pinhole. In all reality, we can feel how our being flows into the Earthly matrix through it and becomes infused in the World-all as thoughts, feelings, and actions. In a sense, our higher conscientious being, hidden behind the pinhole, manifests itself. Our job is to transform all the hindrances that can block or divert this flow. This is the symbol of the lower cone. Its apex is the pinhole, and it opens down into the manifoldness of the sensory world.

So far, so good. But now we are at a point where we need clarity about what the longer term trajectory is. Here things begin to differentiate into alternative wordlines.

If we understand the nature of spiritual science in its true essence, we are fully aware that it draws its concepts from everything that can be experienced beyond the pinhole. This is generally acknowledged, but at the same time, we can form the view that the vast majority of this knowledge is not directly relevant to our pressing tasks at hand. As such, this knowledge can be considered largely a matter of personal concern. Those who feel up to the task are welcome to go deeper through the pinhole, but as far as the Earthly developments go, it's better for one to remain silent about their experiences.

Through this inner stance, it is now perfectly understandable how we can see the role of the Church in a completely positive light. Indeed, even if not too many reformations take place, even if the doctrine of one life, of man being body and soul only, etc., were to remain intact, this is not a problem, because the pressing evolutionary service is still performed – souls are guided and helped to manifest their hidden being of conscience through the pinhole. As such, the role of the consciousness soul is to become a kind of waiting room, where souls gather (individually) one by one. Of course, as said, there's no law against exploring where the further journey takes, yet this is a matter of strictly personal pursuit. The pressing task is to lead the souls to the pinhole waiting room. Then, the train is expected to leave, which corresponds to nothing else but the Second Coming. Only then the life beyond the pinhole becomes fully relevant – simply because it is expected to become our immediate shared reality, just like we take the sensory world to be our immediate shared reality. Yet, this event is something that, for the time being, lies in the indefinite future. It could be close, it could be far.
X wrote: The mission of John is to keep the life and soul of the Church alive until the Second Coming of the Lord. This is why John has never claimed and never will claim the office of directing the body of the Church. He vivifies this body, but he does not direct its actions.
John is the future life in the depths of spiritual reality, however, until the Second Coming, his mission is to help the external guiderails process and also the individual souls in reaching the crisp existence at the pinhole, such as virtuous conscientious impulses can fill the lower cone.

What does it mean that John does not intervene in the work of the Church? Nothing else than the fact that at this time, deeper spiritual knowledge has now direct application to Worldly affairs. For the latter, the intellect guided by Christ-inspired conscience is fully adequate.

Now we can contrast this with another worldline. I beg everyone to do that not merely as a juxtaposition of concepts but as an actual meditative experience. The John streams that broke into the outer world at the beginning of the twentieth century developed a different vision.
BD wrote: Christ cannot be crucified a second time.

This Christ is coming now to visit the minds and hearts of men. He will demolish all prisons; He will obliterate all false teachings - everything that destroys man's mind and heart, that brings confusion and anarchy, that paralyzes human life. He is the living Christ who brings life, light and freedom to all souls, who uplifts and awakens in them love toward all.

When I say that Christ is coming now, some might think that He will come outwardly. Christ will not come outwardly, He will come neither in the form of a man, nor in any other form.

When the rays of the sun enter into your homes, does that mean that the sun itself has visited you?

Remember, Christ is e manifestation of divine Love. And He will come as an inner light in the minds and hearts of men. This light will draw all toward Christ as around a great center.

The opening of men's minds and hearts, and the inner acceptance of Christ - this will be the second coming of Christ to the earth.

If they do not accept Him in this way, people will continue to live without love, in suffering and misery, in outer beliefs, superstitions, and delusions.

Captives of those outer beliefs, many religious people today err when they say, "Christ brought good tidings two thousand years ago. He said all that He had to say, and now He has gone to heaven, where He will remain until the Day of Judgment, when He will come again to judge the living and the dead."

But I say to you: Christ did not preach the good tidings in time and space!

We do not consider Christ and His teaching as something that is past.

We do not consider Christ and His teaching as something that will come in the future.

For us, Christ and His teaching are an everlasting present!



Humankind is presently passing through a new phase of its development. A new form of Love is coming. We ask, “When will God come and reveal His Love to us?” This Day is coming. For some, this Day has already come. Have you ever raised silkworms? Do all form their cocoon in a single day? No, some do it sooner, some do it later. For some of the “silkworms,” this Day has already come.
But even more importantly, there’s a radically different vision about what human life on Earth will turn into. In this vision, the consciousness soul is not kept as a narrow waiting room but begins to grow. Alas, this is not merely a second kind of downward cone. Our whole sense of existence inverts. If I may say so, we begin to awaken within conscience space which is woven out of the activity of the hierarchies. Thus, the awakening of clear consciousness within this soul is like the second cone, touching at the pinhole but open upwards.

All that in our ordinary consciousness we experience as our pure conscientious manifestation of the “I” is by no means something monolithic and individually ours. It is the collective expression of the whole Intelligent Cosmos. Our human being, so to speak, only adds the final touches before this Cosmic flow is funneled through the pinhole, and then expands into World, feeling as if it manifests as an expression of our “I”.

The radically different vision is that it is time the reality of this hidden Cosmic life to flow into the Earthly matrix. In other words, the Cosmic life is not kept silent until the Second Coming happens en masse, but actively profuses into the World and has to gradually become the driving force of all World affairs. Peter’s mind becomes servant of the Cosmic Heart, which together make the the thinking of the heart – a higher form of conscious life that actively weaves within the flow of the hierarchies, and funnels the thinking, feeling and willing manifestations according to this higher cognition of the Cosmic flow.

We need to get that right – we’re not talking about having certain insights in spiritual rapture and then building our social structures as reflections, in the way we always have. No, the social structures now grow as living organs for the hierarchies! There’s consciousness that in this or that organization, concrete beings of the hierarchies have their outlet. All of this consciousness can only be attained if the consciousness or spiritual soul is developed. As long as the latter is reduced to a narrow waiting room, the life of the hierarchies remains behind the veil (or at most as a strictly private insight), while we continue to struggle to find the ultimate socio-politico-religious government, with its intellectually grasped structures, laws, and regulations.

I hope that in this way we have finally elucidated this mystery. We can never have the clarity and exactitude of consciousness if we try to muddle things and say “Well, they all worked for the flourishing of the consciousness soul, but in slightly different ways. One way is adapted to one kind of souls, the other to others.” However, things are not so simple.

The hierarchies continuously move Time. Our I-pinhole is like the bottleneck of an hourglass, through which the sands of Time flow. The Cosmos continuously turns inside-out through that pinhole. The kinds of Time waves that are to pass through the pinhole are largely established through their Cosmic rhythms. As such, when the hierarchies push the Time waves in such a way that they expect that the human being will take their conscious responsibility within the upper cone of conscience space, but this responsibility is not taken, and instead souls clump at the waiting room at the bottleneck, a kind of ‘vacuum’ forms above. Then, other beings say, “If humans are unwilling to take hold of what is lawfully theirs, then we’ll gladly fill that void.”

What are the consequences of this? That while souls are clumping at the pinhole and await the en masse Event, and in the meantime they try to perfect the manifestations of their conscience, they remain completely blind about the Cosmic processes behind the pinhole. And for reasons that will be completely mysterious, even with the best of efforts, souls will be seen to manifest disturbing activity. It will be really strange. Even though on the surface one wants to be a conductor of the good, the noble, the Divine, somehow these manifestations would come out through the “I” in alien forms. We must realize how terrifying that is. And all of this results from convincing ourselves that the deeper knowledge of the human being (which at the same time means true knowledge of the Cosmos and the hierarchies) is a task for some future time, after the Coming, while in the meantime we stay at the waiting room and oversee the entirely Earthly happenings, understood and organized through the intellect.
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