Federica wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 8:08 pm
AshvinP wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 7:47 pm
Federica wrote: ↑Thu Nov 13, 2025 7:21 pm
Well the quote is about the value of Scholastic thought and its quality of precision developed in the quiet surroundings of the monastery. It does not suggest that because they developed thought in those propitious conditions in the 1200s, then today we should rediscover the RCC as a host for productive thought. That's quite a big stretch of interpretation. This is what I call twisting Steiner's throat to make him say what he never intended let alone said.
It's unclear if you see the value of precise logical thinking and a
love for that thinking process (as exemplified in Thomism, which is the reason for the Steiner quote) in our current conditions, and how the Church still provides that function to some extent, whereas practically no other widespread institutions do so. The whole question revolves around a regression to
pre-intellectual soul qualities, so such an impulse that unfolded in the 1200s is certainly relevant to what can mitigate against that regression today. Monastic life can still be fostered through the Church. I know such considerations don't conveniently fit the narrative that the Church is absolutely useless today, but that isn't a legitimate reason to avoid them. It's not about 'interpreting Steiner' so as to find justification for some position ("Steiner said thus and thus, so I am right"), but using his observations to independently explore the evolutionary circumstances we face, forging our own freely won ideas in this domain.
I do see the value of precise logical thinking, and the value of loving it. What I do
not see (but acknowledge as
your position) is that the RCC still provides that function to some extent. The question of regression is real, but I see no evident connection between Thomism, the RCC, and its supposed function of mitigating the regression. Max Leyf, for example, in his academic role in a faculty of philosophy - and other dedicated professors of philosophy or theology - seem to me 100 times more in a position to encourage rediscovery of Scholasticism rather than a priest in a Catholic church - admitting that spreading Scholasticism is a reasonable means, a means with reasonable chances of success, to effectively mitigate the ongoing regression.
This said, what disturbs me is that, immediately after arguing for the necessity of the RCC as bulwark against regressive impulses (which you are absolutely entitled to do) you said: "
Steiner lectured on this aspect as well - the Church still offers souls a 'quiet place' to live alone with their thoughts and experience the process of logical thinking"
This is untrue. The quote is not about that aspect, not even tangentially or partially. I don't think this is a good method.
I'm sorry this phrase disturbed you, and I should have added some more comments to clarify. The 'aspect' was referring to the Scholastic thinking process which has traditionally permeated the Church's theological teachings, referred to above. That is what Steiner helps us orient to in the quote. The quote is also relevant to what we have been discussing about the modern environment that swamps the intellectual soul in waves of disturbances, rendering it unable to live alone with its disciplined thinking process. That is the quintessential image of regression to the sentient soul. The "Church still offers souls a quiet place" part is my own observation based on simple facts of experience (which I presume neither Steiner nor anyone else would deny).
When we think of places of quiet solitude and reflection in the modern world, I think religious institutions immediately come to mind. Actually, I recently took a trip to Bangalore, India (population 14 million in a quite small area), and the only place where I wasn't bombarded with constant noise was at a temple. Many people visit such places to meditate and pray, and it is expected that everyone in the vicinity will respect that and keep commotion to a minimum. I don't think the average person appreciates just how chaotic the oscillations of inner life become when such quiet places aren't frequented, since they haven't differentiated that inner life much from the hustle and bustle of ordinary sensory existence. It simply becomes impossible to cultivate an ordered thinking process and corresponding enthusiasm for that process (in the sense of Scholasticism) in such conditions.
I hope it's clear that this idea stands on its own - the Steiner quote was not necessary at all, although I think such quotes can be helpful to get a better feel for the thinking process I am trying to point attention to, and which I see the Church (particularly the RCC, where there is a rich intellectually-rooted theological tradition) as uniquely capable of fostering for the average soul in the modern world. Remember, in this context, we are not speaking of souls who have found their way to the intuitive thinking path and are therefore inspired to steadfastly unfold a meditative life regardless of societal circumstances and pressures. We are instead dealing with intellectual souls who only have a karmic religious disposition to fall back on, so to speak, in the face of the modern environment that continually introduces disturbances from all directions.
The unique thing about the Catholic Church (compared to most other religious dominations) is precisely that individuals in positions of counsel and guidance are often schooled in the Western foundations of philosophy and theology. Many intellectually inclined souls can find a viable path to cultivate their rigorous thinking process through seminaries, for example. These are simply facts about the Church institution and its history that can hardly be denied. If anything, people (including most esotericists) often criticize the Church for holding so tightly to this intellectual tradition. It seems odd to then turn around and say that it yet has nothing to offer in spreading Scholasticism (not only the content, but the logical inner process), which is its direct intellectual heritage.
Regarding the relationship between Church and transgenderism, we see that on the one hand various denominations have not only encouraged compassion for the suffering involved in gender dysphoria, but also explicitly recognized gender transition. On the other hand, the RCC is opening towards the other denominations. Examples of this expansive strategy are, as previously mentioned, the rejection of the quality of Co-Redeemer for Maria, the subtle opening to same-sex relations - as Cleric noted - and the recent canonization of an ordinary boy, whose hobby was website building (with Catholic content). This one is also a technology-friendly move, that naturally expands the 'radius of sympathy' for the RCC in advantageous directions, of course. But even more directly, it's been this year when Cardinal Fernandez (the same who last week concluded the new appropriate stance with regards to Maria) began to soften the doctrinal RCC position on gender-affirming surgery, speaking at a theological conference. As reported:
"Vatican modifies position on “gender affirming” surgery. The Vatican appears to have modified its previous position against “gender-affirming” surgery and “gender theory” raising the possibility of “exceptional situations.” In early March, the Vatican published a speech by doctrine chief Cardinal Victor Fernández where he said, “there are cases outside the norm, such as strong dysphorias that can lead to an unbearable existence or even suicide. These exceptional situations must be evaluated with great care.”
We also know that the antipope Francis has made it possible for transgenders to be godparents. I notice that in the RCC, a godparent is "someone who bears witness to a child's baptism (christening) and later is willing to help in their catechesis, as well as their lifelong spiritual formation." Not insignificant that the RCC now deems such an educational role appropriate for a person who has undergone gender transition. I am not an expert in RCC matters and there are probably other relevant cases, but even only these ones mentioned here signal an intention to open to transgenderism, in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing these examples. On the rejection of the co-redemptrix aspect of Mary-Sophia (not sure how this is related to justifying transgenderism?), I don't find this too concerning, although I am admittedly ignorant of the theological nuances here. The cult of Mary-Sophia has been so overwhelmingly pronounced in the Catholic Church tradition (compared to other religious denominations) that it seems they could afford a move in the other direction, so to speak.
I also think it is in keeping with development of the intellectual and eventually spiritual soul that educational roles should not be denied to anyone based on outer characteristics, only on
individual merit, and more importantly, the Vatican need not be the one evaluating the latter in one sweeping doctrinal gesture. Catholic parents should be trusted to use their faculty of discernment and determine whether another individual is fit to serve as godparent to their children.
The position on gender affirming surgery is concerning, however. I think that is a slippery slope and appealing to cases where they may be an "unbearable existence" seems quite illogical. Perhaps Rodriel can shed some more light on the nuances of the official position here.