Philosophical Speculations

Cleric wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:45 pm

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Sun Oct 19, 2025 9:39 pm I can't say that I have any exact knowledge of what "the plan" is supposed to be. However, I imagine the entire operation as a quiet one. At no point do I expect priests to give homilies about reincarnation or old Saturn. At all stages of the process there will be souls in need of the exoteric guardrails. But at the end of the process, the esoteric layer will be collectively understood within the exoteric outer container. The exoteric language will be spoken, but the depth axis will be perceived. That's more of less how I envision it. Now, I certainly foresee there being major bumps along the way. The invisible order producing better fruit will illicit the ire of certain contingents within the old guard, and there will be clashes. St. Joan will be burned at the stake again, many times over, most likely.

OK, I think we are getting to the crux of things. Two distinct visions take shape, each of which sees the immediate future of humanity in different ways.

What I'm saying now shouldn't be taken as throwing around esoterically sounding words, and trying to patch together some 'explanation' from them. Everything below can be experienced in full exactness in our spiritual perception. And it is in fact a quite proximate experience.

The Church has the potential to lead the souls toward the pinhole. In more exoteric life, this means to always seek the deep conscience inspired by the Christ, in every act, feeling, and thought. Through a little additional guidance and effort (for ex. MoT), it is possible to develop a truly vivid intuitive experience of the I-pinhole. In all reality, we can feel how our being flows into the Earthly matrix through it and becomes infused in the World-all as thoughts, feelings, and actions. In a sense, our higher conscientious being, hidden behind the pinhole, manifests itself. Our job is to transform all the hindrances that can block or divert this flow. This is the symbol of the lower cone. Its apex is the pinhole, and it opens down into the manifoldness of the sensory world.

So far, so good. But now we are at a point where we need clarity about what the longer term trajectory is. Here things begin to differentiate into alternative wordlines.

If we understand the nature of spiritual science in its true essence, we are fully aware that it draws its concepts from everything that can be experienced beyond the pinhole. This is generally acknowledged, but at the same time, we can form the view that the vast majority of this knowledge is not directly relevant to our pressing tasks at hand. As such, this knowledge can be considered largely a matter of personal concern. Those who feel up to the task are welcome to go deeper through the pinhole, but as far as the Earthly developments go, it's better for one to remain silent about their experiences.

Through this inner stance, it is now perfectly understandable how we can see the role of the Church in a completely positive light. Indeed, even if not too many reformations take place, even if the doctrine of one life, of man being body and soul only, etc., were to remain intact, this is not a problem, because the pressing evolutionary service is still performed – souls are guided and helped to manifest their hidden being of conscience through the pinhole. As such, the role of the consciousness soul is to become a kind of waiting room, where souls gather (individually) one by one. Of course, as said, there's no law against exploring where the further journey takes, yet this is a matter of strictly personal pursuit. The pressing task is to lead the souls to the pinhole waiting room. Then, the train is expected to leave, which corresponds to nothing else but the Second Coming. Only then the life beyond the pinhole becomes fully relevant – simply because it is expected to become our immediate shared reality, just like we take the sensory world to be our immediate shared reality. Yet, this event is something that, for the time being, lies in the indefinite future. It could be close, it could be far.

X wrote: The mission of John is to keep the life and soul of the Church alive until the Second Coming of the Lord. This is why John has never claimed and never will claim the office of directing the body of the Church. He vivifies this body, but he does not direct its actions.

John is the future life in the depths of spiritual reality, however, until the Second Coming, his mission is to help the external guiderails process and also the individual souls in reaching the crisp existence at the pinhole, such as virtuous conscientious impulses can fill the lower cone.

What does it mean that John does not intervene in the work of the Church? Nothing else than the fact that at this time, deeper spiritual knowledge has now direct application to Worldly affairs. For the latter, the intellect guided by Christ-inspired conscience is fully adequate.

Now we can contrast this with another worldline. I beg everyone to do that not merely as a juxtaposition of concepts but as an actual meditative experience. The John streams that broke into the outer world at the beginning of the twentieth century developed a different vision.

BD wrote: Christ cannot be crucified a second time.

This Christ is coming now to visit the minds and hearts of men. He will demolish all prisons; He will obliterate all false teachings - everything that destroys man's mind and heart, that brings confusion and anarchy, that paralyzes human life. He is the living Christ who brings life, light and freedom to all souls, who uplifts and awakens in them love toward all.

When I say that Christ is coming now, some might think that He will come outwardly. Christ will not come outwardly, He will come neither in the form of a man, nor in any other form.

When the rays of the sun enter into your homes, does that mean that the sun itself has visited you?

Remember, Christ is e manifestation of divine Love. And He will come as an inner light in the minds and hearts of men. This light will draw all toward Christ as around a great center.

The opening of men's minds and hearts, and the inner acceptance of Christ - this will be the second coming of Christ to the earth.

If they do not accept Him in this way, people will continue to live without love, in suffering and misery, in outer beliefs, superstitions, and delusions.

Captives of those outer beliefs, many religious people today err when they say, "Christ brought good tidings two thousand years ago. He said all that He had to say, and now He has gone to heaven, where He will remain until the Day of Judgment, when He will come again to judge the living and the dead."

But I say to you: Christ did not preach the good tidings in time and space!

We do not consider Christ and His teaching as something that is past.

We do not consider Christ and His teaching as something that will come in the future.

For us, Christ and His teaching are an everlasting present!

…

Humankind is presently passing through a new phase of its development. A new form of Love is coming. We ask, “When will God come and reveal His Love to us?” This Day is coming. For some, this Day has already come. Have you ever raised silkworms? Do all form their cocoon in a single day? No, some do it sooner, some do it later. For some of the “silkworms,” this Day has already come.

But even more importantly, there’s a radically different vision about what human life on Earth will turn into. In this vision, the consciousness soul is not kept as a narrow waiting room but begins to grow. Alas, this is not merely a second kind of downward cone. Our whole sense of existence inverts. If I may say so, we begin to awaken within conscience space which is woven out of the activity of the hierarchies. Thus, the awakening of clear consciousness within this soul is like the second cone, touching at the pinhole but open upwards.

All that in our ordinary consciousness we experience as our pure conscientious manifestation of the “I” is by no means something monolithic and individually ours. It is the collective expression of the whole Intelligent Cosmos. Our human being, so to speak, only adds the final touches before this Cosmic flow is funneled through the pinhole, and then expands into World, feeling as if it manifests as an expression of our “I”.

The radically different vision is that it is time the reality of this hidden Cosmic life to flow into the Earthly matrix. In other words, the Cosmic life is not kept silent until the Second Coming happens en masse, but actively profuses into the World and has to gradually become the driving force of all World affairs. Peter’s mind becomes servant of the Cosmic Heart, which together make the the thinking of the heart – a higher form of conscious life that actively weaves within the flow of the hierarchies, and funnels the thinking, feeling and willing manifestations according to this higher cognition of the Cosmic flow.

We need to get that right – we’re not talking about having certain insights in spiritual rapture and then building our social structures as reflections, in the way we always have. No, the social structures now grow as living organs for the hierarchies! There’s consciousness that in this or that organization, concrete beings of the hierarchies have their outlet. All of this consciousness can only be attained if the consciousness or spiritual soul is developed. As long as the latter is reduced to a narrow waiting room, the life of the hierarchies remains behind the veil (or at most as a strictly private insight), while we continue to struggle to find the ultimate socio-politico-religious government, with its intellectually grasped structures, laws, and regulations.

I hope that in this way we have finally elucidated this mystery. We can never have the clarity and exactitude of consciousness if we try to muddle things and say “Well, they all worked for the flourishing of the consciousness soul, but in slightly different ways. One way is adapted to one kind of souls, the other to others.” However, things are not so simple.

The hierarchies continuously move Time. Our I-pinhole is like the bottleneck of an hourglass, through which the sands of Time flow. The Cosmos continuously turns inside-out through that pinhole. The kinds of Time waves that are to pass through the pinhole are largely established through their Cosmic rhythms. As such, when the hierarchies push the Time waves in such a way that they expect that the human being will take their conscious responsibility within the upper cone of conscience space, but this responsibility is not taken, and instead souls clump at the waiting room at the bottleneck, a kind of ‘vacuum’ forms above. Then, other beings say, “If humans are unwilling to take hold of what is lawfully theirs, then we’ll gladly fill that void.”

What are the consequences of this? That while souls are clumping at the pinhole and await the en masse Event, and in the meantime they try to perfect the manifestations of their conscience, they remain completely blind about the Cosmic processes behind the pinhole. And for reasons that will be completely mysterious, even with the best of efforts, souls will be seen to manifest disturbing activity. It will be really strange. Even though on the surface one wants to be a conductor of the good, the noble, the Divine, somehow these manifestations would come out through the “I” in alien forms. We must realize how terrifying that is. And all of this results from convincing ourselves that the deeper knowledge of the human being (which at the same time means true knowledge of the Cosmos and the hierarchies) is a task for some future time, after the Coming, while in the meantime we stay at the waiting room and oversee the entirely Earthly happenings, understood and organized through the intellect.

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 5:21 pm The image of souls clumping at the pinhole, awaiting the en masse Event is different from what I'm describing. A quiet emergence of the Consciousness Soul doesn't imply that activity waits until everyone has gotten on board. The quietness or "silence" simply refers to the manner of communication used in the activity of sculpting our social institutions into organs for the hierarchies. Tomberg demonstrates quite effectively how certain facts can be conveyed very strongly without stating them directly. For instance, nowhere in his entire Catholic period does he mention the idea that Lazarus becomes John. Yet this is the very backbone of his entire project. Those who see this and other such veiled facts can then base their activity upon this communication and structure their communications accordingly. To demonstrate this, we need only run a thought experiment among the small group of people here in this forum. Knowing what we collectively know of spiritual science, however meager or great it might be, we could have an entire conversation about the 6th cultural age using only Biblical images. Insofar as this conversation contains suggestions for action, these could then be carried out and produce real social effects.

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:26 pm Could you elaborate a bit on how you see this process of the Church body 'running its course' and Christ spirit 'growing a new body'? Practically, what happens to the EOC and RCC in this scenario, what is 'the plan' from this perspective? Do they remain as 'holding pens' for lagging souls, who can perhaps be reached by more advanced souls on an individual case-by-case basis, but then it truly becomes a case of rescuing such souls from the dying Church body and setting ourselves in opposition to the latter? I have a hard time imagining any way this could play out without esoteric 'communities' declaring war on the Church (almost like an even more intense Protestant reformation), so to speak, if indeed there is no leeway for renewal and adaptation at the institutional level.

Cleric wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 7:16 pm

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 5:21 pm The image of souls clumping at the pinhole, awaiting the en masse Event is different from what I'm describing. A quiet emergence of the Consciousness Soul doesn't imply that activity waits until everyone has gotten on board. The quietness or "silence" simply refers to the manner of communication used in the activity of sculpting our social institutions into organs for the hierarchies. Tomberg demonstrates quite effectively how certain facts can be conveyed very strongly without stating them directly. For instance, nowhere in his entire Catholic period does he mention the idea that Lazarus becomes John. Yet this is the very backbone of his entire project. Those who see this and other such veiled facts can then base their activity upon this communication and structure their communications accordingly. To demonstrate this, we need only run a thought experiment among the small group of people here in this forum. Knowing what we collectively know of spiritual science, however meager or great it might be, we could have an entire conversation about the 6th cultural age using only Biblical images. Insofar as this conversation contains suggestions for action, these could then be carried out and produce real social effects.

That's OK, but it still shifts the focus from the issue at hand. The whole point is that in X's vision, until the Second Coming, there should still be a clear 'separation of concerns' between the outer flow of affairs and the inner life. John doesn't give directions to Peter. The Hermetic initiate doesn't intervene in science, art, religion. Groups of Hermeticists may be inspired through the hierarchies and act as their organs, but the organs of outer life are independent. They follow the rules of the fifth cultural epoch, the intellectual soul working on the sensory spectrum.

This is different from what the other streams of Living Christianity portray as the future of human civilization. It is precisely these three archetypal outer expressions of human life that need to receive new life directly from the spirit. Steiner, more than anyone else, has tried to give examples of how all aspects of outer human life must in time begin to draw their life impulses directly from the spiritual world, from the upper cone where our being belongs to the hierarchies. This holds even for the threefold social being. I hope everyone here is aware that the latter is not merely an ideology, like communism or capitalism, that can be implemented by organizing human agents into governing structures and following cleverly designed rules. It can only emerge in the true way precisely if it becomes the body of the Macrocosmic being of humanity, the Cosmic Man. And this is impossible without deepened comprehension of man and the Cosmos, because this manifestation flows through the free I-activity of human individualities. Nothing can ever come about if this comprehension is kept a private concern of a few.

In other words, these streams proclaim that we already live in the time where the following is due:

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

As such, Steiner hasn't simply sent a loud blast from the housetop, such that others can then once again turn back to secrecy. He was simply doing his duty before Christ, who spoke to him in darkness.

I hope I'm able to express this point of bifurcation clearly. We are indeed speaking of two different visions of the immediate future of humanity, and we're not making things easier for ourselves if we simply close our eyes and hope to think of them as two sides of the same coin. In one vision, outer life remains basically materialistic, as it has been in the last millennia. This life is balanced through religion, bringing back to focus that the I-pinhole has to be an outlet for the life of Christ (not I but Christ in me). This Earth-bound life is expected to transform through the Second Coming, which is awaited as a future event. Only then will the Church be left in the past because we'll be entering the age where "... I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

In the other view, there's an influx of the spiritual which brings about higher consciousness within the upper cone, and as such, the Earthly arena becomes a place where the Worlds intermingle in full consciousness. As such, all outer forms now need to receive more and more consciously their impulses from the spiritual world. We should feel how this forces us to conceive of a quite new kind of human culture, a completely different way in which we feel we're placed into reality. This feeling is uncomfortable for the materialistic Earthly dream (even if guided through religious guardrails). It asks for radically new understanding, new skills, new duties, and so on. But most crucially - we are not waiting for something to happen. This should have become a red alarm by now. Everyone waits for something to happen. Some wait for the Pleiadeans to evacuate them from Terra, others wait for the president who will finally put things right. Meanwhile, we're in the waiting room and contemplate the dream of the material Earth passing before our eyes. The new culture is called upon to transform the three aspects of life - science/economics, art, religion - such that they become expressions of the spirit. This in itself means that the transfigured religion, Peter, will have to be directed by the Light pulses of John.

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 7:56 pm You see, this is where Tomberg's work really must be grasped within the very mystery that his words convey. By doing this, we live into the mystery such that we see all the same things being done that you describe but which in their outward expression seem to be denied. This method of communication is the very means by which what you are arguing for is to be accomplished. "John doesn't give directions to Peter" simply means that Peter's full entry into the spiritual world is won through his becoming a John, and once this has occurred it will have been Peter at the visible helm the entire time. You argue continually that spiritual science must be shouted from the rooftops. I argue that the silence Tomberg describes is that very shouting from the rooftops shifted into a completely different dimension of hearing. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27). There is no literal waiting until the Second Coming. There is no literal "separation of concerns" between Peter and John. The statements which gesture toward such waiting and separation are rhetorical devices meant to lead to the understanding, from a higher vantage point, of the very opposite.

I know that one can easily arrive at the sense that this method of working is deceptive or duplicitous. But it is actually the way that vouchsafes the attainment of the goal we all strive for in full freedom. If you tell someone exactly how to achieve a certain goal, then its attainment is not entirely free. However, if you clearly see the goal but build into the directions the requirement for people to arrive at the path themselves, now free attainment is possible.

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 7:56 pm You see, this is where Tomberg's work really must be grasped within the very mystery that his words convey. By doing this, we live into the mystery such that we see all the same things being done that you describe but which in their outward expression seem to be denied. This method of communication is the very means by which what you are arguing for is to be accomplished. "John doesn't give directions to Peter" simply means that Peter's full entry into the spiritual world is won through his becoming a John, and once this has occurred it will have been Peter at the visible helm the entire time. You argue continually that spiritual science must be shouted from the rooftops. I argue that the silence Tomberg describes is that very shouting from the rooftops shifted into a completely different dimension of hearing. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27). There is no literal waiting until the Second Coming. There is no literal "separation of concerns" between Peter and John. The statements which gesture toward such waiting and separation are rhetorical devices meant to lead to the understanding, from a higher vantage point, of the very opposite.

I know that one can easily arrive at the sense that this method of working is deceptive or duplicitous. But it is actually the way that vouchsafes the attainment of the goal we all strive for in full freedom. If you tell someone exactly how to achieve a certain goal, then its attainment is not entirely free. However, if you clearly see the goal but build into the directions the requirement for people to arrive at the path themselves, now free attainment is possible.

Steiner wrote:This is the picture we must have before us if we desire to realise not only intellectually but also in our feeling, what the communication of this Fifth Gospel means. It means that together with the truth known to us we must be alive to how and where we stand in the world today, realising how impossible it is to make the new tidings of the Spirit comprehensible to the thought-life of the past. And so when we have again to take leave of one another, reference may be made to words from the Gospel. With the way of thinking now prevailing in humanity, no progress is possible in the coming phase of spiritual evolution. Therefore this way of thinking must be changed, must be given another direction! Those who like to compromise and are unwilling to form a clear picture of things as they are and must be in the future, will not be able to contribute much to the spiritual teachings and spiritual service necessary for mankind.

It was my duty to speak of the Fifth Gospel which is very sacred to me. And I take leave of your hearts and souls with the wish that the bond created between us by many other things, may have been strengthened through this spiritual investigation of the Fifth Gospel—for this investigation is precious to me. Your hearts may perhaps be warmed by the thought that even if we are physically separated in space and in time, nevertheless we will remain together and feel together what we must inwardly assimilate and what is demanded by the duty laid upon the souls of men to-day by the Spirit. May the labours of every individual soul further our aims in the right way.

Cleric wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 9:22 pm I get what you say, but this also makes the whole communication very slippery. If VT has spoken in half-words, and then we add the other halves from ourselves, then what we're discussing here is primarily the part that we add and insist that this is what VT implied but never said. That's why I suggested that it's even better if we do not focus so much on him but on what our individual vision is.

And in that case, we still circle back to the idea of the RCC as the future World-governing power, which however might as well still be stuck in its dogma. What I said is that we can only accept that if we consider that the deeper truths of man's Cosmic nature are optional for the time being (that is, as long as the pinhole is brought to focus, it's enough). But if we consider the example I gave, we should know that the higher truths are and will be increasingly more vitally important if man is not to fall into degeneration. In this way, it shouldn't be possible to be equanimous before the fact that a World-governing institution is teaching untruths that fuel the degeneration (because, as an example, the one-life doctrine can be accepted as a pedagogical method up to some point, but from thence on, it becomes actual teaching of an untruth)

We really need to make up our minds about this. Let me be clear once again that I have nothing against the RCC. If it becomes the home of true Johnian initiates, who are willing to give new spiritual life of its structures directly from the spiritual world - so much the better. But in my view, we completely reverse the situation if we place the cart before the horse and subscribe to the eternal rule of the RCC for whatever reasons, while we care not about what it will teach, how many will be burnt at the stake, and so on.

To me things are so plain and simple as long as we understand the inner priority of things. If an organization, RCC or whatever, can do its job and bring into the Earthly matrix the spiritual impulses that are needed for healthy development of mankind - so much the better. But to insist that a certain husk has to be pushed into power, even if it turns out completely inadequate for the evolutionary tasks, is scary. I understand completely if someone has sympathy and hope that the RCC will be able to transform and become the continuation of John, that is, it will have John initates at the core who do everything possible to manifest the Cosmic intents of the hierarchies down the gradient. But if one is willing to put up with a structure which turns out more and more inadequate to meet the evolving needs of mankind, just because of sympathy to its brand name, this is completely upside-down. We need to be not where the Church is but where the Living Christ is.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Sun Oct 19, 2025 7:21 pm What do you understand "tradition" to mean in this context, Federica, and do you disagree that it does not live thanks to organizations?

Tomberg wrote: Before Fabre d’Olivet the mystical aspect—the great alchemical work, the inner work of the new man and that of sacred magic—for a long time played the principal role in Hermeticism. It is thanks to him that a current of esoteric history was set in motion, which was represented by Saint-Yves d’Alveydre, H. P. Blavatsky and Rudolf Steiner—to name only the most well-known names. But since the time of Fabre d’Olivet esoteric historicism has undergone an unparalleled development: grandiose works have seen the light of day—for example, From the Akasha Chronicle (Aus der Akasha-Chronik) and chapters on cosmic history in Occult Science (Geheimwissenschaft in Umriss) by Rudolf Steiner. What we said above concerning the work of Fabre d’Olivet is equally applicable to his successors in the domain of esoteric historicism based on the Akasha chronicle. For whatever the extent of their experience of the Akasha chronicle may be, however imposing the results of their efforts to do justice to this experience may be, it remains nonetheless fragmentary—and it is to the intellectual effort of the authors, more or less crowned with success, that we owe the logical or artistic sequence of their pretended account from the Akasha chronicle. Each of these authors of esoteric history has gaps in his experience of its source—the Akasha chronicle—and has filled them by taking recourse to his own means, to his intelligence and erudition. Thus, the situation of esoteric historicism is at present such that one cannot swear by any particular work; here, also, collective work is necessary from generation to generation—i.e. a living tradition, where each continues the work of his predecessors, by confirming the truth, filling in the gaps, and correcting errors of interpretation or vision.

Today no one should begin any more “from zero” out of his own initiative in the domain of esoteric historicism, even if he is the most profound seer and greatest thinker. From now on, it will be a matter not of isolated flashes of genius, but rather of a continuous collective endeavour of the tradition—which means to say of a slow but continuous growth of the light whose dawn was Fabre d’Olivet’s work. Dear Unknown Friend—you who are reading these lines written in 1965, after nearly fifty years of endeavour and experience in the domain of Hermeticism—I beg you not to regard what is written here as a simple wish made for the progression of Hermetic historicism, but as a testament making you who read these lines a trustee of such a task— if you accept. Therefore, please do all that you judge appropriate, but one thing I implore you not to do: to found an organisation, an association, a society or an order which would take charge of that. For the tradition lives not thanks to organisations, but in spite of them. One should content oneself purely and simply with friendship in order to preserve the life of a tradition; it should not be entrusted to the care of the embalmers and mummifiers par excellence that organisations are, save for the one founded by Jesus Christ.

Federica wrote: ↑Tue Oct 21, 2025 8:32 am En clair, VT says: “Fabre d’Oliver is the initiator of esoteric historicism. Before him, hermeticism consisted of the great inner works of the new man, with no connection to the history of the world. With him - the "angel" of tradition - begins the reading of the Akashic records, when hermeticism has finally entered its historical dimension. But nobody should do like Steiner, starting everything from zero and founding a deadly organization, a mill of death. Steiner, and everyone else in this tradition brought forth by reading the records, should have built on the work of their predecessors, take them further, correct their mistakes. Because everyone in this tradition, including Steiner, has done intellectual patching, connecting the visions using their intelligence and erudition. From now on [that is, beginning with me] no more isolated bursts of genius, à la Steiner, and no more of their deadly organizations, but only a collective effort among unknown friends to continue the tradition, through esoteric historicism. So please, friends who are listening, you don’t follow in Steiner’s path, and no more organizations, please, other than the RCC. Instead, simply be my unknown friends, and let's continue the tradition into the future.”

Of course, I deeply disagree with this view. The being of Anthroposophy (which is not the same as the Anthroposophical Society) is an essential element of the development of the new man, through the virtues. This development is what counts, not the tradition of esoteric or hermetic historicism. Without this realization, one is forced onto the dual path, which is incompatible with the virtues, and at odds with Divine will.

Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 11:27 pm But now, when after this catalyzing event has taken place, those who preach the 5th Gospel (another reason why 5th Tarot Card is the Pope) will not refer to themselves as who they know themselves to be - namely, "Johns". For, not referring to oneself is at once a Christian sacrifice, the only way of spreading the Good News, and the only way for the flock to hear the Shepherd's voice. Valentin Tomberg-Unknown has shown this to us.