Kaje977 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 29, 2025 4:31 pm
Thank you for your reply, Federica.
Interestingly, what I intuitively recognized in my last reply seems to be something that Steiner tried to illustrate a long time ago, without me really knowing that Steiner had spoken about it in detail. I found this about half an hour ago today, and it seems to hit the nail on the head. Perhaps his words can also help to broaden the perspective on the subject a little. Yes, his quote is not necessarily directed at people who already have an inclination and longing for the spiritual, but I think it still applies to those who stubbornly refuse to at least consider it and are therefore not yet ready.
Perhaps I am much more direct in this situation (given my experience with “debates” on other topics in the past), but normally I would observe the following: if a person really wants to understand and learn in order to embark on the path, they will ask
real questions. They will actually sit down and try to block out everything they have known and learned so far. Of course, this doesn't always work for beginners, especially if there are deeply ingrained aspects (in their blind spot) that they can't just switch off because they are not really aware of them. Nevertheless, you will clearly sense that they are
sincerely trying to understand, and as a result, they will not really abandon the topic. They are even quite obsessed with it and have a certain fear that it could be true, that there is more to it, but certain egoistic tendencies try to reject this out of fear. This means that the discussion that arises as a result could (not must be) similar to a kind of defensive reaction. The ego rebels, while deep down, one already senses that there could be something to it.
Those who are genuinely interested will sometimes even comment on the essays with certain adjectives that show the depth and significance they find in this work: "interesting", "amazing", “impressive" etc., and therefore want to know more about it or ask for introductory literature. So there will be a certain soul activity that wants to harmonize with what you, Cleric and Ashvin, are working on and writing in your essays. Although it is not easy to recognize this intuitively from black and white text, you can see quite quickly whether they are really searching or just curious. Yes, even from written texts. Although it is more difficult, you can actually sense it.
When I first read (e.g.) Jim Cross's answers, I knew immediately: No, this man will never accept anything you have to say. Not in the future, never. It felt like a natural intuition, and indeed, Jim Cross never changed his attitude. With Eugene, on the other hand, I could immediately see (despite his initially (2021-2023) very reluctant attitude) that he has a genuine interest (and he also comes from a spiritual background), but he is (or was?) still far too immersed in no-self concepts, which is why something in him wants to reject Spiritual Science. Probably also personal experiences that he made that are felt deeply and strongly, and thus are hard to let go off. I can only speculate, but I assume that deep in his soul he has found a hidden satisfaction in avoiding the suffering. Although he repeatedly mentions that he acknowledges suffering, his solution is that we must get rid of the ego, as he believes it is the cause of all suffering. However, by avoiding it, one transforms into what Kishin Asura appears to be in the video I posted above. The no-mind exercise thus becomes not a prerequisite for higher truths, but a form of isolation, a quiet place forever and ever where nothing can disturb you, it is so to speak, the self-created end of the ripcord. This is the "safe ground" in which one can reside. In a stressful life in the modern West, it is of course quite understandable why Buddhism and similar practices are making a comeback. They don't want to deal with suffering hand-on, but rather avoid it, learn to "stop imagining" and instead slowly become ahrimanic vessels. This is what Eugene wrote long ago:
I rather feel a motivation to grow and connect with the Divine on other more subtle layers where its Wisdom, Beauty, Mystery and Love reside, and I'm not so much interested in the astral structures and beings. I don't know how those subtle layers are called, and it does not matter anyway.
By the way, in the traditional Christianity any communication with the astral and even angelic hierarchy beings was strongly discouraged and it was even considered quite dangerous because those beings can easily deceive humans ("And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" 2 Cor). The only safe way in this tradition is to communicate with God directly.
My intuition reading his response tells me here: "I fear the Unknown". And deepening it, you will get analogous intuitions such as: "I want evidence", "I want proof", "Show me the results or evidence of anthroposophical medicine" etc.
If he ever steers away from this soul constitution, then the essays will actually click for him. Guaranteed 100%. By the way, I'd argue, most of us do fear the unknown. Just look at how "planned" everything is nowadays around us. Plan-Driven Development in project management, the fear of taking risks (even small and arbitrary ones), asking out your crush, humorizing everything to subvert the seriousness of the situation, working in teams, talking to other people, etc. The only way to combat fear is,
courage.
Witnessing Eugene's post history, I did see that he did change his trajectory a bit and later on seems to be have been much more welcoming to the essays. In some cases, he still falls back into his old cognitive mode, but he clearly did change in retrospect of his earlier posts (and is even much earlier posts on Google Groups). Of course, likewise it's possible that he was just larping, who knows, and just waited for an opportunity to attack the essays rhetorically. Who knows. But does it really matter? I don't think the essays needs to find an audience. It's the other way around. The right audience will find the essays, hopefully.
All in all, if the people looking for answers continously demonstrate, that they re-frame their questions in such a way to appeal to their own pre-constructed views of the world and refuse to even consider, for a moment, to abolish them, the discussion should necessarily stop. And not go into lenghty debates that stretch 40 pages. Sorry, if that may sound harsh, but I do think it really bears no fruit. On the other hand, sometimes it can also bring forth some new intuitions, but ultimately at that point it should no longer be about the person refusing to engage with the essays, but the intuition resulting from the discussion itself from this.
Steiner wrote:In times gone by, it was absolutely forbidden to perform any magical operation without being in harmony with the leaders of the world, the “earthly government”, also known as the great masters of the so-called white lodge. All occult schools, all schools that exist at all and all teachings can only be the lowest step towards higher development; on this step, higher and higher steps must be built up, right up to the actual leaders of earthly development. Those who not only know wisdom but also “rule” the earth in its development, who let wisdom flow into earthly evolution, are on the highest level. They alone are able to indicate for each individual action, based on spiritual forces, whether it disturbs or does not disturb in the whole context.
When you build a house and lay out the plan for the house, each individual workman on the house must work in harmony with the plan. And if someone comes along and decides to make a window different from what is provided for in the plan, no matter how beautiful and magnificent that window may be, the whole house is disturbed. If anyone in the world wants to accomplish something through spiritual powers, no matter how significant and grandiose it may be, if it does not fit into the original plan of earthly development, it disturbs earthly development and sometimes throws it back for a long time. A man who applies no spiritual forces can never disturb this plan of earthly development. And why not? Because in relation to spiritual forces, what people do without knowledge of the higher worlds is to natural phenomena as a house is to a house. Whatever is ruined by the weather, by heat and sunlight, must be ruined; that is self-evident in a certain sense. So it is with the intentions of those who have no connection with the higher world. But the actions of those who have some connection with the higher worlds behave, when they do something that is not in harmony with the spiritual world, like someone who hits something with a hammer. So what is necessary for the progress of the human race to take place? When occult forces are applied, it is absolutely necessary that the connection with the central spiritual powers of the world be maintained, and it is absolutely necessary that the spiritual forces not be delivered to anyone who does not want to seek this connection. It is connected with this that in all real occult schools a secret is held over the imparting of spiritual forces, and that no secrets are delivered to anyone who does not undertake to maintain the connection with the leading spiritual entities.
Only the “central government” of the earth has the possibility of knowing what is at stake. And this must be known if one is to apply spiritual forces. If one imparts anything to another in an unauthorized manner, whereby this other person can oppose the great plan of earth development, then one commits the first kind of black magic act. Therefore, the following is a basic principle: The first black magic act is the betrayal (= German: Verraten) of occult secrets. Gossip and divulging of occult secrets is the first case of black magic, because in doing so you surrender the occult secrets to those who oppose the central leadership of the earth's development because you do not know the context. Where does this occur, where does it become real? It becomes real wherever occult secrets are used in the service not of the entire earthly leadership but of some limited body that does not want to have any connection with the earthly leadership that serves humanity. If, for example, a person receives the things that he is only allowed to use when he has overcome all national and racial prejudices, earlier delivered, he uses them before he has overcome these prejudices and before he has an idea of what it means to be a “homeless person”, then exactly the same thing that is otherwise white magic goes into the service of black magic. Exactly the same. If that which is intended to serve humanity is used in the service of a separate race, for example to give that race supremacy over the earth, then on a large scale that is black magic, because it does not happen in accordance with the way the earth is run. It is the first requirement: to go beyond what connects us only to one part of humanity. For a modern white magician, this is the first principle. Man should not strive for unselfishness, but for love for all mankind. He can extend the field of his love. He can do that, and that is what it is all about.
(From GA101)
I know this is a difficutlt topic, but I sincerely believe that we should definitely refrain of trying to make things appealing to those who have no enthusiasm or connection to Spiritual Science. Their time will come, as I believe the way that they at least interacted with these topics show that they are in a certain progress of maturing for Spiritual Science. They just haven't found the right Soul Entanglement yet, I believe. Other than that, the best we can do is offer them what Cleric, you, Ashvin have been offering so far. Those who seek, will find value in it and actually engage with the topic.
Regarding Marco, I can only intuit one of the following things:
- Despite being spiritual in a certain sense, they still live within a learned set of terms, concepts, ideas (similar to Eugene) they grew up with and can't let go of. Especially academics.
- Often, reading a single essay can often be very confusing, irritating even for newcomers, especially if it's a long text and there's a missing greater context. In the past, I already recommended, that having reference links to the other essays and replies or writing a (freely available) book might probably be more helpful. It might help newcomers to recognize the greater context instead of having to browse around a large forum where all the topics and replies are scattered around.
- Or, they aren't really genuinely spiritual. To them, spirituality is just a different name for a reductionistic spiritualism
Regarding point 2, I think there might definitely be ways for improvement. I don't believe it will make much of a difference, but I do think that it might help to put the great and insightful replies and essays of you three into a single book to help to grasp the greater context. Of course, one can argue: Well, if they don't find the time and effort to browse through the forums, they're probably not interested either way. But I see it somewhat nuanced: Most of us have jobs, some have parenting to do, we've got not much time nowadays or only a slice of it which is not enough to browse everything to get a thorough understanding what this is all about. We are on a hurry. A big book or a series of books (as PDFs) where many of the questions many beginners have are answered and put into context. Again, yes, they could simply just engage with the essays, but they don't, because they don't feel a relevant connection. In fact, they might even believe that you are talking and researching about something entirely different than they do. Putting it into a greater context, could possibly help to lift the Spirit a bit.
He made it his mission, so to speak, to illustrate and elaborate everything from the first-person phenomenological perspective. Every response to a concern or question was an invitation to introspect on our real-time flow of imaginative experience and its lawfulness. That has been our consistent diet from the very beginning of this forum, which coincides with when we were introduced to the path of spiritual science. Only in this way did we develop a certain degree of consciousness of alternatives to doll mode, which then helps us mitigate against its pervasive symptoms, even while we remain immersed in it. 