Philosophical Speculations

I am aware that the core of this forum often revolves around spiritual development. Accordingly, it is clear that the following topic can, in a sense (if pursued in practice), be understood as a kind of distraction from the path, since pursuing the development of such abilities ultimately delays the spiritual path in the long term. This primarily concerns certain atavistic (?) (=> it would be necessary to clarify whether they are truly atavistic, which I unfortunately do not know) abilities that have reappeared in some people after a long period of absence. Rudolf Steiner writes not much about these abilities in his texts, but at the same time points out that they are not on the same level as, for example, clairvoyance. For example, Steiner points out that such abilities fall under "extrasensory perception" and surround the physical and aetheric world. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to examine these abilities from a spiritual point of view, especially since parapsychology is still groping in the dark on this subject (for reasons we have long been aware of).

One thing that strikes me is that some people seem to have a predisposition (or at least claim to have one) to move physical objects without physical interaction of their body, i.e., by means of “the power of their thoughts.” Classic examples of this can be found in very old communities where people often referred to themselves as “psychonauts.” Well-known communities included PsiPog, VeritasSociety (vsociety), and others. I was also active in such communities at the time and tried many of the exercises back then. I had to admit to myself that many of these exercises yielded virtually no results. Nevertheless, there seem to be obvious phenomena in which such effects actually occur, either through rare predispositions (as in the case of Nina Kulagina) or through certain poltergeist phenomena in which spontaneous physical effects occur, such as falling pictures, vases, etc.

There are several documented videos on this subject, another one that often comes to mind is that of a user who works with “magnetic fluid” (Bardon). According to his descriptions, this is Qi, which Steiner refers to as “life ether” in the first stage. 11Faustia11 is one of the few users I know who seems to be able to work with the group soul of animals and exert a certain influence there, e.g., putting them to sleep, etc.

(One of many such posts)

Another well-known topic that often comes up in Bardon's IIH Level 1 is working with the so-called Eucharist. In this tradition, Bardon listed two introspective techniques:

1.) The impregnation of food and drink => Here, we use our thoughts to influence the quality of the food and drink through the formative life ether and transfer positive thoughts into the food and drink, which we then consume. Countless examples for this can be found, some physical even, can be found in experiments with plants, some of which were given positive affirmations and others negative ones.

2.) Magnetizing them => The temperature of the food and liquid actually plays a certain role here. The difference here is that the presence of the already magnetized food or drink already has an astral effect on everything around you. It is like giving something a radiation. Interestingly, holy water or baptism is a special case of this. For whatever reason, water is most receptive to such magnetization processes at 4°C and literally ‘absorbs’ thoughts. Cold showers therefore not only have a purely physical invigorating effect, but also an astral one. You really can let it 'suck' up negative ideas and the water takes it and holds the astral quality of it. The warning, Bardon, gave here often is that this water shouldn't come into contact with other people at this point due to the possibility that a person might absorb that quality onto themselves.

That's it for now. I may revisit this topic (edit it) or add further posts. My main focus here is on a spiritual view of the subject.

Kaje977 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 28, 2025 12:16 am That's it for now. I may revisit this topic (edit it) or add further posts. My main focus here is on a spiritual view of the subject.

Hi Kaje,

I think what you posted from Bardon (impregnation or consecration of water/food) can be non-atavastic, when it is a means of devotionally interfacing with supersensible reality through fully conscious, expanded degrees of inner freedom. As you point out, that is the basis of many Christian sacraments and similar cultic practices under the 'new covenant'. OMA has also given such practices, as discussed here, for example.

The water which we are all familiar with and with which we wash every day is a materialization of the cosmic fluid that fills the whole of space. By means of thought it is possible to be in contact with this fluid and be purified by it. The first step is to be aware, when washing, that the physical water you are touching is a spiritual element; and the first effect of that awareness will be to modify your gestures. Many people use rough, clumsy gestures when they wash, in the belief that this helps to wake them up and stimulate them and put them in a good mood. They certainly wake themselves up, but brusque, hurried gestures have a bad effect on the body, particularly on the face, for the harmony of our face comes from the extremely subtle organization of its particles along specific lines of force. Man’s face is a reflection of the face of God, and those who wash their faces roughly and carelessly disturb the features of the divine image.

When you wash, therefore, try to use measured, harmonious gestures so that your thoughts may be free to do their work. Concentrate on the water, on its pure, limpid transparency, and you will soon feel that it is reaching into unknown regions within you and working its transformations. Not only will you feel lighter and purer, but your heart and mind will be nourished by new, subtler and more invigorating elements. Physical water contains all the elements and forces of spiritual water; you only have to learn to awaken them and receive them inwardly.

Aïvanhov, Omraam Mikhaël. The Mysteries of Fire and Water (Izvor Collection) (p. 46). Editions Prosveta. Kindle Edition.

The other faculties you discuss, on the other hand, are clearly atavistic, as the intellect seeks to interface with spiritual reality under the necessity of the 'old covenant'. What Cleric metaphorically described is instructive here - the intellect wants to exert more and more pre-calculated control over the output stream (like influencing the animal soul to put them to sleep, etc.), i.e., it wants its imaginative flow of thoughts to become a series of continual prescriptions for what inputs to feed into the pipeline such that desired outputs will feed back. The magical operations should unfold stage by stage according to clearly defined rules, which feel to be given to the soul from without (from God, the Cosmos, the spacetime fabric, the quantum field, the Amplituhedron, etc.).

I think that we can clearly sense the differentiation in the underlying mood/intention here. In one case, the soul prayerfully opens its imaginative flow to receive its guidance from above, through organic inspiration, and in the other, the soul wants to feel more like a top-level authority that pre-calculates its imaginative flow to direct the pipeline outputs. In the former case, the soul indeed feels an expanded sense of intuition and responsibility within the output flow, as it attunes its imaginative flow with overarching Cosmic intentions that lawfully guide the World pipeline. In the latter case, the soul is only interested in the expanded intuition (which is always constrained by familiar pre-calculated gestures) to the extent that it helps steer the World pipeline in accordance with its own local intents.

In a certain sense, these atavastic approaches are destined to become more commonplace as the soul instinctively seeks its spiritual foundations, but cannot suspect a way to approach them without pre-calculation, without a linear progression from inputs to outputs that build upon each other, as a matter of necessity, to effect the desired outcome. I think we will need great vigilance to continually separate the wheat from the chaff in this domain. It may feel quite obvious in some cases, like mediumism, channeling, telekinesis, etc., but in others it may not be so clear. Ultimately it seems to come down to sensing the underlying moods/intentions involved. The more we seek the spiritual foundations in the mood of prayerful openness to organic Cosmic inspirations, the more we will be able to recognize similar or opposing gestures in the practices around us.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Dec 29, 2025 2:52 pm The more we seek the spiritual foundations in the mood of prayerful openness to organic Cosmic inspirations, the more we will be able to recognize similar or opposing gestures in the practices around us.

I just encountered a Substack post that connects with this theme quite well:

https://open.substack.com/pub/nasmith/p ... medium=web

"One of the most terrifying experiences of my youth was the moment I first grasped the nature of eternity. Lying in bed, clutching my covers, it appeared to me as a great dark expanse—like a road stretching ahead toward an invisible vanishing point. I could see only a little way before me, but the farther I tried to walk in imagination, the farther the end receded, until I suddenly realized that there would never be an end—not even the possibility of one, for the nature of eternity was precisely not to have one.

It was then that I first began to understand God, insofar as such understanding is possible: not through concept or image, but through an apophatic unknowing—a revelation not of what is known, but of the unknown—pressing itself upon me in excess of the aperture of my gaze and the limits of my cognition.

This experience was terrifying because it was the first time I became aware of something I could not contain, control, or ever fully attain by nature. Yet without that awareness, I would never have gained the capacity to see that as much as this mystery exceeds me, so too do the possibilities of God—above all, the breadth of His love.

In a sense, one is always closest to Christ at the very moment one feels furthest from Him. For we grow only when the light of God enters more deeply within, revealing how far we have yet to go to achieve His likeness. And yet, in acquiring this very knowledge, we are being expanded beyond ourselves, becoming ever more transparent to God."


I think the bold nicely expresses the stance that is characteristic of the higher cognitive (non-atavistic) approach. Of course, this can also become one-sided if reduced to some intellectual rule, where we must shy away from anything that speaks of concrete aspects of the spiritual foundations and the future evolutionary process (this is commonly why mystical types reject spiritual science). Then, in a strange way, the intellect is once again trying to pre-calculate the input-output process, by fantasizing the ideal of terminating all calculation and allowing 'God' to conduct everything independently of its agency. Now the intellect feels secure that every new input can be calculated as a denial of its inputting responsibility. Yet the underlying mood/stance expressed above is clearly differentiated from that which is characteristic of atavistic approaches, where every new insight into reality is 'cast down' into something more or less calculable through the soul's familiar gestures.

AshvinP wrote: ↑Mon Dec 29, 2025 2:52 pm I think what you posted from Bardon (impregnation or consecration of water/food) can be non-atavastic, when it is a means of devotionally interfacing with supersensible reality through fully conscious, expanded degrees of inner freedom. As you point out, that is the basis of many Christian sacraments and similar cultic practices under the 'new covenant'. OMA has also given such practices, as discussed here, for example.

The water which we are all familiar with and with which we wash every day is a materialization of the cosmic fluid that fills the whole of space. By means of thought it is possible to be in contact with this fluid and be purified by it. The first step is to be aware, when washing, that the physical water you are touching is a spiritual element; and the first effect of that awareness will be to modify your gestures. Many people use rough, clumsy gestures when they wash, in the belief that this helps to wake them up and stimulate them and put them in a good mood. They certainly wake themselves up, but brusque, hurried gestures have a bad effect on the body, particularly on the face, for the harmony of our face comes from the extremely subtle organization of its particles along specific lines of force. Man’s face is a reflection of the face of God, and those who wash their faces roughly and carelessly disturb the features of the divine image.

When you wash, therefore, try to use measured, harmonious gestures so that your thoughts may be free to do their work. Concentrate on the water, on its pure, limpid transparency, and you will soon feel that it is reaching into unknown regions within you and working its transformations. Not only will you feel lighter and purer, but your heart and mind will be nourished by new, subtler and more invigorating elements. Physical water contains all the elements and forces of spiritual water; you only have to learn to awaken them and receive them inwardly.

Aïvanhov, Omraam Mikhaël. The Mysteries of Fire and Water (Izvor Collection) (p. 46). Editions Prosveta. Kindle Edition.

The other faculties you discuss, on the other hand, are clearly atavistic, as the intellect seeks to interface with spiritual reality under the necessity of the 'old covenant'. What Cleric metaphorically described is instructive here - the intellect wants to exert more and more pre-calculated control over the output stream (like influencing the animal soul to put them to sleep, etc.), i.e., it wants its imaginative flow of thoughts to become a series of continual prescriptions for what inputs to feed into the pipeline such that desired outputs will feed back. The magical operations should unfold stage by stage according to clearly defined rules, which feel to be given to the soul from without (from God, the Cosmos, the spacetime fabric, the quantum field, the Amplituhedron, etc.).

I think that we can clearly sense the differentiation in the underlying mood/intention here. In one case, the soul prayerfully opens its imaginative flow to receive its guidance from above, through organic inspiration, and in the other, the soul wants to feel more like a top-level authority that pre-calculates its imaginative flow to direct the pipeline outputs. In the former case, the soul indeed feels an expanded sense of intuition and responsibility within the output flow, as it attunes its imaginative flow with overarching Cosmic intentions that lawfully guide the World pipeline. In the latter case, the soul is only interested in the expanded intuition (which is always constrained by familiar pre-calculated gestures) to the extent that it helps steer the World pipeline in accordance with its own local intents.

In a certain sense, these atavastic approaches are destined to become more commonplace as the soul instinctively seeks its spiritual foundations, but cannot suspect a way to approach them without pre-calculation, without a linear progression from inputs to outputs that build upon each other, as a matter of necessity, to effect the desired outcome. I think we will need great vigilance to continually separate the wheat from the chaff in this domain. It may feel quite obvious in some cases, like mediumism, channeling, telekinesis, etc., but in others it may not be so clear. Ultimately it seems to come down to sensing the underlying moods/intentions involved. The more we seek the spiritual foundations in the mood of prayerful openness to organic Cosmic inspirations, the more we will be able to recognize similar or opposing gestures in the practices around us.

Hello, Ashvin. Thank you for your reply. I see it similarly to you. 11Faustia11 was known for being devoted to many of these practices. I knew him somewhat personally through chat exchanges. He was very talented, but I believe that his misguided clairvoyant practices led him to drift heavily into conspiracy theories about National Socialism. (Although I'm not saying that official history is set in stone, it felt somewhat off-putting) He was probably researching how familiar Nazi ideology was with magical practices and why they brought unusual and novel technologies to market so early on (among other things, the Nazis were the first to develop a prototype for what we now call video telephony).

In this context, I found a passage in Steiner that sheds more light on this topic and thus also on a new aspect of spiritual science. It mainly concerns the term of the "adept". Unfortunately, the English translation of Bardon's book obscures this concept, but it is extremely important. The original title of the book is "Der Weg zum wahren Adepten" (English: “Initiation Into Hermetics”) or, if translated word for word into English, "The way to true adepthood". I quote here a passage from Steiner in GA98 and GA101:

If we now look back at those distant times when occultism was practised in secret, there were three avenues by which a human being could come into contact with the super-sensible worlds: First as an initiate, second as a clairvoyant, third as an adept. In the old days, these three methods were kept strictly apart, and if we really want to understand what the occult development of man is all about, then we must clearly understand these three terms.

[...]

Let’s assume, there was an area where people have never seen a railroad and someone from there moves to an area where there were railroads. Then he would learn about it through his own experience. He would be able to talk about it at home based on his own experience, just as the clairvoyant can testify about the spiritual world.

But someone who is such a clairvoyant, is not yet what could be called an adept, nor could he be called an initiate. If a man who, according to the example above, has become familiar with a railway by personal experience, now returns home, he would not be entrusted with the task of building a railway. The same applies to the clairvoyant. He is not able to do what someone else can do who has gained practical and scientific knowledge in the super-sensible world. This is how the clairvoyant, who has only seen what exists in the higher worlds, is in comparison to the adept.

Still different is the Initiate. Here is another comparison: Imagine a human being who can see all colours and lights, and another one who is quite short-sighted. The first one doesn’t know anything about the laws of the world of light, the other one, who can’t see far, but as a trained physicist and scientist knows all the laws well. There are people, who are initiated to a high degree, despite them not being clairvoyant; at least this is applicable to all the old schools, but not to the same degree nowadays. In the old days it was possible to work like this, because don’t forget that to teach clairvoyance or train initiates is a lengthy process. Some require many incarnations to achieve this.

Such cooperation of clairvoyants and initiates is now no longer entirely possible; for this reason the Rosicrucian School no longer keeps these things strictly separate. The selflessness, that used to operate in the secret schools, can hardly be comprehended by people today. Especially, in the Egyptian secret schools individuals worked together in this way. Today, the requisite trust no longer exists, and modern man cannot imagine this anymore. This is why initiates and clairvoyants in the Rosicrucian schools were only developed to a certain degree. In contrast, one has to deal very carefully with adeptship as one could only harm the world. Because people are very disinclined to believe that spiritual powers influence everything. A storm would be unleashed and the consequence of this would be that the preparatory understanding would be jeopardised. First, it is necessary for clairvoyants and initiates to teach the occult knowledge, and only then adepts will gradually appear.

(From GA098)

And another one:

Steiner wrote:Now, however, the magician differs from both the clairvoyant and the initiate. For someone who can see into the higher worlds, it does not follow that he can already control and apply the forces that are at work in the material world. Or do you think that a person who has brought knowledge of the locomotive, the steamship and the steam engine to a region could also build such a machine? He can tell them what such things look like, but he will not immediately understand how to build them. The fact that the clairvoyant can see into the higher worlds does not yet mean that he also knows how to control and apply the forces that work in the sensory world. Only he is a magician or adept who knows how to apply the higher forces, of which all physical events are an expression, in the world here, who is thus able not only to call upon the physical forces and powers when something is at stake in his actions, but who can set the higher forces in motion. In our time, it is no small thing to be a magician or adept. There has never been a time in the development of humanity when the path of the magician or adept was so completely opposed to our own as it is today. And today, under certain circumstances, one best serves humanity by limiting oneself to spreading the knowledge of the higher worlds, and even - perhaps with a bleeding heart - refraining from it in cases where the application of magical powers might be appropriate. For today's public life is so alien to the concept of magistery that under certain circumstances the influence of higher worlds on this world would mean a setback if magical powers were applied directly. He who has practised the use of these powers to a certain extent, and who has acquired the knowledge of the mechanism as well, must in certain cases refrain from using these powers, for the simple reason that it is impossible today to go against the current of the world. Not only clairvoyance and initiation belong to the magician, but also practice. That is what it is all about. The magician must practice certain tasks with great dedication over a long period of time. Just think about how much you can know - even in the physical world - without being able to actually do what you can talk about, what you know something about. You can be initiated into many things. You can know exactly how a locomotive is constructed, but without anyone giving you the order to build a locomotive, because he would risk throwing the money out the window. It is the same in the higher realms. Practice makes the magician, perception in the higher worlds makes the clairvoyant, knowledge and realization of the laws in the higher worlds makes the initiate.

And further:

In times gone by, it was absolutely forbidden to perform any magical operation without being in harmony with the leaders of the world, the “earthly government”, also known as the great masters of the so-called white lodge. All occult schools, all schools that exist at all and all teachings can only be the lowest step towards higher development; on this step, higher and higher steps must be built up, right up to the actual leaders of earthly development. Those who not only know wisdom but also “rule” the earth in its development, who let wisdom flow into earthly evolution, are on the highest level. They alone are able to indicate for each individual action, based on spiritual forces, whether it disturbs or does not disturb in the whole context. When you build a house and lay out the plan for the house, each individual workman on the house must work in harmony with the plan. And if someone comes along and decides to make a window different from what is provided for in the plan, no matter how beautiful and magnificent that window may be, the whole house is disturbed. If anyone in the world wants to accomplish something through spiritual powers, no matter how significant and grandiose it may be, if it does not fit into the original plan of earthly development, it disturbs earthly development and sometimes throws it back for a long time. A man who applies no spiritual forces can never disturb this plan of earthly development. And why not? Because in relation to spiritual forces, what people do without knowledge of the higher worlds is to natural phenomena as a house is to a house. Whatever is ruined by the weather, by heat and sunlight, must be ruined; that is self-evident in a certain sense. So it is with the intentions of those who have no connection with the higher world. But the actions of those who have some connection with the higher worlds behave, when they do something that is not in harmony with the spiritual world, like someone who hits something with a hammer. So what is necessary for the progress of the human race to take place? When occult forces are applied, it is absolutely necessary that the connection with the central spiritual powers of the world be maintained, and it is absolutely necessary that the spiritual forces not be delivered to anyone who does not want to seek this connection. It is connected with this that in all real occult schools a secret is held over the imparting of spiritual forces, and that no secrets are delivered to anyone who does not undertake to maintain the connection with the leading spiritual entities. Only the “central government” of the earth has the possibility of knowing what is at stake. And this must be known if one is to apply spiritual forces. If one imparts anything to another in an unauthorized manner, whereby this other person can oppose the great plan of earth development, then one commits the first kind of black magic act.

Bardon is unusual and very rosicrucian in this respect because he attempts to unite all three aspects (initiation, clairvoyance, adept) in human beings through his works. However, he does this in a different way, so to speak: he begins with relatively little theory and knowledge and immediately focuses on the introspective, practical path. Only in the course of these exercises do the laws reveal themselves in a practical and experiential way, and only in the fourth Tarot card (Bardon's unfinished "The Golden Book of Wisdom") do they become the main point of focus of attaining the right to be a guru/teacher. So, in a sense, one begins as an initiate, then as a clairvoyant, and finally as an adept when the powers are actually needed in a practical way, for example, to visit the elemental realms and kingdoms through mental travelling (which is not just for mere curiosity, but to actually probe this inner activity of the interconnectedness with all beings; it's a spiritual, not a purely scientific-curious one like how biologists observe a wild animal) or when working with the etheric streams (magnetic-ahrimanic and electric-luciferic) in regards to fluidic condensers, aka Anthrosophical Medicine and the like.

One thing I'd like to add here:
As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), anthroposophic medicine does not work directly with magical charges, i.e., magnetization. It probably happens more indirectly, for example, when the love and health of the patient is considered during the production of such a medicinal preparation. In most cases, this is then charged into the medicine either way (depending on the substance, of course). However, since this process often still takes place unconsciously, it may pose a risk if the doctor is not in a positive Soul state. I do not know to what extent the Soul component plays a role in training for such roles, but the importance of maintaining thoughts of love, health, and life during the production of these preparations cannot be overemphasized.

Summarizing the quote about the White Lodge, I basically came to the conclusion, similar to what other occult authors and practitioners have said:

The "safest" way to know whether a magical operation is allowed to be performed depends on the authority given by the spiritual guides of Mankind, because they alone know truly whats at stake and what disturbs earthly developments. Adepts are usually capable to get into "contact" with these beings, and usually these guides will straight on tell (relatively speaking here, of course. It's more like an intuitive insight) you whether the operation is authorized or not. Or, without going through all the hassle, you simply refuse to perform such operations, in general. That's probably the truly safest way.

Kaje977 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 29, 2025 5:13 pm Bardon is unusual and very rosicrucian in this respect because he attempts to unite all three aspects (initiation, clairvoyance, adept) in human beings through his works. However, he does this in a different way, so to speak: he begins with relatively little theory and knowledge and immediately focuses on the introspective, practical path.

Right, and this is a critical method in my view, because strictly theoretical gestures inevitably misconstrue the higher facts communicated without a simultaneous introspective practice. Actively experimenting with the interleaved IO flows, for example, already brings us into contact with characteristic dynamics of inner activity that project across the cognitive scale gradient. These dynamics gradually elucidate the theoretical principles, laws, etc. of the soul and spiritual worlds that have been revealed by initiates. We start to feel these laws naturally emerging from within our soul life, as that which we would discover even if we had never come across the revelations. At the same time, we can't expect to completely reinvent all such laws from out of ourselves, without any abstract reflection. That would be like expecting to learn all the best strategies and techniques of a sport without any preliminary instruction from previous players, simply by trial and error. We will necessarily need to rely upon such instruction which is experienced as abstract-theoretical at first, but the key is that such a theoretical experience should be simultaneously complemented with active experimentation that gradually transmutes theory into practical, experiential knowledge. Without that, we are like the gamer who imagines all the gamepad controls are already known and the IO flows can be explored by moving left, moving right, forward, backward, etc., but without suspecting that certain aspects of those flows within the game space can only be reached by using an unsuspected gamepad button to jump. To discover these unsuspected buttons of our imaginative volume, certain theoretical movements that reflect upon the spiritual laws need to be progressively sacrificed such that those same laws can be lived through. This sacrificial gesture is the most difficult thing for the modern intellect following its familiar momentum along the path of least resistance.

As you suggest, humanity will soon begin to feel that all further progress in applied scientific domains (like medicine) will depend on this active experimentation with the interleaved IO flows, which include not only our mental pipelines conditioned on sensory experience but the deeper, more collective and invisible flows of feeling and volition with which the former are entangled. Indeed, many scientists already feel that is the case but don't know in which way to turn to discover the unsuspected gamepad controls. It will be a great achievement if humanity realizes that it doesn't yet quite know what strategic goals within the game are worthy of pursuit. We can theoretically speak of expanding love, health, peace, harmony, brotherhood, and so on, but we have little intuition for what inputs will modulate the IO flows in that direction, in a sustained way. That is what Steiner emphasizes in your quotes - we can easily (and quite often do) modulate the flows in the opposite direction of what is intended (or imagined to be 'intended') without expanded intuition of the imaginative gamepad controls and the palette of possible outputs which they modulate within the game space. We feel like we already know what it means to explore the laws of reality and seek the truth, to resist desires, to pray, and so on, but what we know are simply flattened shadows of deeper gestures which extend beyond our familiar imaginative palette. When we focus on one IO flow, we continually fall out of tune with the others as they recede into the background of consciousness. The White Lodge, as you also express, are those individualities who hold the IO flows in holistic harmony and therefore know how pressing certain buttons will steer the wider output flow in certain directions and away from others. We can gradually achieve adepthood within the game space by entering into dialogue with the Lodge and emulating their wise gestures.