Meditation exercise on "separate me"

[Federica]

Cleric,

Will the layers of spiritual hierarchies eternally remain the same or could there be new layers, or could some layers merge?
When the future man will be fully conscious, and when current human conscious individualities will be its organs, will that be transparent for the I-organs? Will the current fully initiated higher selves still be individually conscious, as organs of the future man, at the same time as the future man will be conscious as a larger unit, or will the one who today can realize itself as fully conscious higher self become unconscious, or phased out? Will it, as individuated willed spiritual activity, die into the future man?
In other words, will the waves of expanding consciousness expand and enrich the hierarchies, or is the whole structure ever present, already present, and present-day higher selves will simply dissolve in the same hierarchical layer, transform in collective units, and acquire new expanded consciosuness only as spare parts of that future man? And if so, if the willed individuated activity of present-day higher selves is destined to merge, does such confluence mean the dissolution, or death, of the higher self willed activity? Or is it just that my idea of will, willed spiritual activity, also has to transform and just can’t encompass the future nature of will and freedom?

These are all important questions, alas it is not easy to answer in a satisfactory way. I'm still searching for ways to convey these ideas, which in itself means that they are not clear enough in my mind. Basically the root problem is that our intellectual thinking by its very nature corresponds to a certain 'granularity' of the "I", generally matching the granularity of human bodies. It is very difficult to escape this. I tried to give some indications about this here. Please take a look there and see if it throws light on some of the questions, then we can continue with what remains.

As for the static levels - beings evolve in waves, so it's more like overlapping pipelines, similarly to the way we're surrounded with human beings that are at different age. Those older than us will be also older than us an year from now. For example, in our next stage the Angels will once again be above us but they will have evolved further. Whether the stages themselves are fixed, I don't know but logically I think that they are presently specific to our fourfold blueprint of evolution. Maybe there are different possible folding blueprints, which will result in different kinds of hierarchies.

Thank you, Cleric!
I remember I read the linked post when you posted it, but I didn't properly record it at that time. For example, I only now notice the reference to a reincarnation of the solar system as a whole. If the reincarnation of the solar system, as pivotal and ‘scheduled’ future event, is due to happen in bulk - although there's an Earth being with its own becoming in tight relation to that of humanity, for which it’s the riverbed, and there are Mars and Venus beings with different trajectories - then the question becomes whether there will be a neat, catastrophic separation between eons.


Because from the perspective of the reincarnation of the solar system, the planets appear like its organs, more than like individuated beings. I realize they are both, so maybe it simply means that a ‘normal’ reincarnation for one being, always unfolds as an eon-like, catastrophic change for its nested organs. If this is correct, it seems necessary that the future man will arise from an apocalypse, in the same way as our current physical organs will be terminated all at once at physical death. Otherwise I can’t conceive how 'centers of spiritual activity' could be born again as organs, in a progressive transformation by ‘age cohorts’. By the way, this whole thought intersects with observations of population trends on Earth… but I should refrain from complicating the question…


So I wonder, if the destinies of humanity will be fully reset and then recapitulated in the Jupiter eon, why still call the new being ‘man’? The new being will have a different level of granularity as you say, that doesn’t match today’s man's; and a different self-expression and organization, without physical body. What will it have in common with present-eon man, apart from the origin of its imaginative cells? Shouldn’t we already now refer to it with a new name? After all, we don’t call our brain, heart, lungs, or larynx ‘man’ today…


I gather that, in general, there seems to be a necessity for destructive large-scale events, in order to transform a complex evolutionary system that moves in ‘families of diverse waves’. In particular, for the human being to move past its current physicality an apocalyptic event seems necessary. Maybe, as I wondered above, the truth is simply that the same 'death and birth cycle' is experienced either as catastrophic mass event, or as fluid individual sewing in and out of a threshold, depending on where in the depth structure the standpoint is set. Still I can’t figure out what an ‘imaginative apocalypse’ may look like, for the epochal transformation of those strata where the mineral element, i.e. all physicality, has been already left behind…


Now getting back to the present-day human, set to become organ of the future human in the new eon, the question remains: how to intend spiritual activity, consciousness, and freedom for the current soul-unit in the new imaginative Jupiter existence: does it simply dissolve? I guess it does dissolve, in the sense that one is wired to conceive in standard cognition today. But there should be a new sense to experience, the sense of what it is like to acquire that organic nature. For now, it feels to me at the same time like an ascent and a descent. The question remains, because the soul-unit today can experience its organ-identity 'in preview' in imaginative cognition, once the illusion of private soul life is bursted. So one can wonder, what is the difference between purposefully maintaining a center of willed activity within a spiritual thinking substance that is both lawful and unbound, as it can be done today, and being a full-time 'resident organ' of future man?


I imagine, freedom means what it means to us today because of our physical extension. It is to be realized as it is, in the context of the physical Earth. As outrageous as it might sound, it probably shouldn’t be... idolized? If so, what will it be like to will an imaginative organic function of future man? How will the ideal form to be ful-filled by the organ, act as riverbed of organic activity? Maybe, at the imaginative organ-level, freedom will mean nothing other than perfectly dwelling in God’s will…

[Cleric K]

Thank you, Cleric!
I remember I read the linked post when you posted it, but I didn't properly record it at that time. For example, I only now notice the reference to a reincarnation of the solar system as a whole. If the reincarnation of the solar system, as pivotal and ‘scheduled’ future event, is due to happen in bulk - although there's an Earth being with its own becoming in tight relation to that of humanity, for which it’s the riverbed, and there are Mars and Venus beings with different trajectories - then the question becomes whether there will be a neat, catastrophic separation between eons.


Because from the perspective of the reincarnation of the solar system, the planets appear like its organs, more than like individuated beings. I realize they are both, so maybe it simply means that a ‘normal’ reincarnation for one being, always unfolds as an eon-like, catastrophic change for its nested organs. If this is correct, it seems necessary that the future man will arise from an apocalypse, in the same way as our current physical organs will be terminated all at once at physical death. Otherwise I can’t conceive how 'centers of spiritual activity' could be born again as organs, in a progressive transformation by ‘age cohorts’. By the way, this whole thought intersects with observations of population trends on Earth… but I should refrain from complicating the question…


So I wonder, if the destinies of humanity will be fully reset and then recapitulated in the Jupiter eon, why still call the new being ‘man’? The new being will have a different level of granularity as you say, that doesn’t match today’s man's; and a different self-expression and organization, without physical body. What will it have in common with present-eon man, apart from the origin of its imaginative cells? Shouldn’t we already now refer to it with a new name? After all, we don’t call our brain, heart, lungs, or larynx ‘man’ today…


I gather that, in general, there seems to be a necessity for destructive large-scale events, in order to transform a complex evolutionary system that moves in ‘families of diverse waves’. In particular, for the human being to move past its current physicality an apocalyptic event seems necessary. Maybe, as I wondered above, the truth is simply that the same 'death and birth cycle' is experienced either as catastrophic mass event, or as fluid individual sewing in and out of a threshold, depending on where in the depth structure the standpoint is set. Still I can’t figure out what an ‘imaginative apocalypse’ may look like, for the epochal transformation of those strata where the mineral element, i.e. all physicality, has been already left behind…


Now getting back to the present-day human, set to become organ of the future human in the new eon, the question remains: how to intend spiritual activity, consciousness, and freedom for the current soul-unit in the new imaginative Jupiter existence: does it simply dissolve? I guess it does dissolve, in the sense that one is wired to conceive in standard cognition today. But there should be a new sense to experience, the sense of what it is like to acquire that organic nature. For now, it feels to me at the same time like an ascent and a descent. The question remains, because the soul-unit today can experience its organ-identity 'in preview' in imaginative cognition, once the illusion of private soul life is bursted. So one can wonder, what is the difference between purposefully maintaining a center of willed activity within a spiritual thinking substance that is both lawful and unbound, as it can be done today, and being a full-time 'resident organ' of future man?


I imagine, freedom means what it means to us today because of our physical extension. It is to be realized as it is, in the context of the physical Earth. As outrageous as it might sound, it probably shouldn’t be... idolized? If so, what will it be like to will an imaginative organic function of future man? How will the ideal form to be ful-filled by the organ, act as riverbed of organic activity? Maybe, at the imaginative organ-level, freedom will mean nothing other than perfectly dwelling in God’s will…

If you are interested in the evolution of our Solar context, how the planets are differentiated and then reabsorbed and so on, maybe it is time to look at Outline of Occult Science. It’s one of those books that on first read may throw us in desperation but it is really amazing how each time we revisit it after some months or years, we discover how much more sense everything makes. So on first reading we shouldn’t feel bad if we can’t relate to anything of the written. Instead, we should imagine that small seeds are planted which will grow only in the course of time.

When trying to conceive of higher beings and how other beings are like organs for them, we should be very cautious about the way we translate our sensory understanding on high, most importantly – that of spatiality. Our thinking about organs is based on our physical bodily organization and there everything can be grasped through geometric intuition – the sphere of the body contains smaller spheres of the organs, which contain even smaller spheres of cells, they of atoms and so on. Such an image is very clear for our intellect but we shouldn’t imagine that in the spiritual world we’ll find anywhere such an experience of the Divine, branching into Seraphim, they branching into Cherubim and so on. Just as little human beings on Earth are stringed to one another, so little this is how things are experienced in the spiritual world. This doesn’t negate the idea of hierarchy, the image of Tree of Life and so on. It’s only that we have to learn how to understand them in a way that corresponds to actual experience.

What Eugene keeps bringing up all the time – that in our innermost essence we’re one with the Divine – is a fact. It only becomes twisted when we decide that at some level of experience we’re already identical to the Divine. As a matter of fact, there is no such state where we can say “Now I’m fully the Divine”. Even the possibility to think these thoughts can only arise if we experience ourselves in a very structured way in relation to a whole Cosmic environment.

These things are clear to you. The point is to understand what it means to be an ‘organ’ within the Cosmos. The first thing is to understand that this has nothing to do with being placed in a certain position, like a person can be put on a job. When people rebel against such ideas (of the spiritual hierarchy) it is because they usually conceive of things as if an educated person is given a broom and forced to sweep the streets. In other words, we feel a clear distinction between our sense of self, our self worth and so on, and the function that we have been placed in. This kind of attitude also supports the feeling that we’re a self-sufficient soul bubble that can leave the Solar context altogether and still feel as the same being, only with a changed environment.

So this would be the first thing – to overcome the idea that to be an organ has something to do doing a certain job in the Cosmic corporation. But we should understand these things in a much more fundamental way. For example, we as human beings are part of Earthly life by the mere fact that we exist here. Whether we like it or not, we’re part of that organism, we inhale, transform and exhale air, we ingest and expel liquids and solids, we interact with other life. Thus in one way or another we are part of the Earthly life, we act like organs, transformers in that totality. If one doesn’t want to do that, we must renounce our conscious existence or simply wait and fantasize that we’re ready for something better after death.

When we take the spatial organism analogy too rigidly, it seems that in the higher world we’ll have to assume certain positions. One will be stuck in the toe, another in the ear and so on. Then it’s only natural that one would say “Well, I prefer Earthly existence. There at least I’m free to travel anywhere I want. I don’t want to be stuck as an organ in higher imaginative space.” This of course is an incorrect way to imagine things. There are many more ways in which one can move in soul space. It’s only that these ways become much more conscious. For example, let’s take the migration of the tribes on Earth. There are always some reasons for them. The most immediate are – the search for more fertile land, better climate and so on. Sometimes the spiritual leaders who receive messages from spiritual beings, are inspired to lead the people in a certain direction, for reasons which are not entirely clear, yet serve a greater purpose in the overall development of humanity.

In all these cases, whether they know it or not, people are part of the Cosmic organism. It is only out of ignorance today that people think they are free just because they randomly decide the destination for their next vacation. From a spiritual perspective however, there’s nothing free in this. It’s only that they don’t know the hidden forces that manifest in their likes and dislikes.

In all cases we shouldn’t imagine that to do God’s will means to get stuck in some organ’s position and perform some tedious tasks. This simply translates the analogy in a wrong way. As it has been spoken before, no one can do for us what can only be done from our level. Yahve told Moses in what direction to go but the people still had to do everything themselves. The direction of the travels serves a much greater purpose, through which the evolution of mankind can be furthered. This was understood by the initiates like Moses, even though it might not have been understood why exactly that land was chosen. To answer that a much higher form of consciousness would be needed. To put that in modern mechanistic terms, it would be like simulating all possible paths of migration and the way that will contribute or deter the positive outcome for all humanity. If these things are understood it will be clear that doing God’s will is not about doing one of infinitely many things but following the curvature of the potential that in fact maximizes freedom. For example, we can go through a path where each day is a fight for survival, where our consciousness is severely limited in tunnel vision, only thinking about the ways to get through another day. Or we can follow a path that expands our consciousness, where we can notice the beauty of Nature, we can experiment, explore and so on.

The same thing holds for the future eon. We’ll have a very wide field of activity that would be our proper realm, just like now the sensory world is that realm. Being an organ in that state doesn’t mean that we’ll be stuck motionless and do repetitive tasks but will demand even greater intuition for the way the Cosmos unfolds.

With this I haven’t entered into details about the way the transition between levels occurs, which you called the catastrophic apocalypse, but I wanted to shift the metaphor a little. The key is to realize that what the higher beings do, we can’t do ourselves even if we can grasp its nature through glimpses of higher cognition. We’ll return to that transition.

About your question why we still call the higher being ‘man’: the terms certainly are different at different levels, for example in Western esoterism we have the Spirit-Self, Spirit-Life, Spirit-Man.
I remember that it was strange to me back in the day, why the highest level of self is Spirit-Man. It felt to me that the lowest should be Man (since it would be closer to our present man) and the highest should be something like God. I don’t have the full answer but it certainly has something to do with the ways the ancients derived their words from the spiritual world. They used terms like man-as, at-man, brah-man. Practically everything is man (not in gender sense of course). Even an alien species would be a form of man. Animals, plants and minerals are also what has been expelled from man.

[Federica]

Thank you, Cleric!
I remember I read the linked post when you posted it, but I didn't properly record it at that time. For example, I only now notice the reference to a reincarnation of the solar system as a whole. If the reincarnation of the solar system, as pivotal and ‘scheduled’ future event, is due to happen in bulk - although there's an Earth being with its own becoming in tight relation to that of humanity, for which it’s the riverbed, and there are Mars and Venus beings with different trajectories - then the question becomes whether there will be a neat, catastrophic separation between eons.


Because from the perspective of the reincarnation of the solar system, the planets appear like its organs, more than like individuated beings. I realize they are both, so maybe it simply means that a ‘normal’ reincarnation for one being, always unfolds as an eon-like, catastrophic change for its nested organs. If this is correct, it seems necessary that the future man will arise from an apocalypse, in the same way as our current physical organs will be terminated all at once at physical death. Otherwise I can’t conceive how 'centers of spiritual activity' could be born again as organs, in a progressive transformation by ‘age cohorts’. By the way, this whole thought intersects with observations of population trends on Earth… but I should refrain from complicating the question…


So I wonder, if the destinies of humanity will be fully reset and then recapitulated in the Jupiter eon, why still call the new being ‘man’? The new being will have a different level of granularity as you say, that doesn’t match today’s man's; and a different self-expression and organization, without physical body. What will it have in common with present-eon man, apart from the origin of its imaginative cells? Shouldn’t we already now refer to it with a new name? After all, we don’t call our brain, heart, lungs, or larynx ‘man’ today…


I gather that, in general, there seems to be a necessity for destructive large-scale events, in order to transform a complex evolutionary system that moves in ‘families of diverse waves’. In particular, for the human being to move past its current physicality an apocalyptic event seems necessary. Maybe, as I wondered above, the truth is simply that the same 'death and birth cycle' is experienced either as catastrophic mass event, or as fluid individual sewing in and out of a threshold, depending on where in the depth structure the standpoint is set. Still I can’t figure out what an ‘imaginative apocalypse’ may look like, for the epochal transformation of those strata where the mineral element, i.e. all physicality, has been already left behind…


Now getting back to the present-day human, set to become organ of the future human in the new eon, the question remains: how to intend spiritual activity, consciousness, and freedom for the current soul-unit in the new imaginative Jupiter existence: does it simply dissolve? I guess it does dissolve, in the sense that one is wired to conceive in standard cognition today. But there should be a new sense to experience, the sense of what it is like to acquire that organic nature. For now, it feels to me at the same time like an ascent and a descent. The question remains, because the soul-unit today can experience its organ-identity 'in preview' in imaginative cognition, once the illusion of private soul life is bursted. So one can wonder, what is the difference between purposefully maintaining a center of willed activity within a spiritual thinking substance that is both lawful and unbound, as it can be done today, and being a full-time 'resident organ' of future man?


I imagine, freedom means what it means to us today because of our physical extension. It is to be realized as it is, in the context of the physical Earth. As outrageous as it might sound, it probably shouldn’t be... idolized? If so, what will it be like to will an imaginative organic function of future man? How will the ideal form to be ful-filled by the organ, act as riverbed of organic activity? Maybe, at the imaginative organ-level, freedom will mean nothing other than perfectly dwelling in God’s will…

If you are interested in the evolution of our Solar context, how the planets are differentiated and then reabsorbed and so on, maybe it is time to look at Outline of Occult Science. It’s one of those books that on first read may throw us in desperation but it is really amazing how each time we revisit it after some months or years, we discover how much more sense everything makes. So on first reading we shouldn’t feel bad if we can’t relate to anything of the written. Instead, we should imagine that small seeds are planted which will grow only in the course of time.

When trying to conceive of higher beings and how other beings are like organs for them, we should be very cautious about the way we translate our sensory understanding on high, most importantly – that of spatiality. Our thinking about organs is based on our physical bodily organization and there everything can be grasped through geometric intuition – the sphere of the body contains smaller spheres of the organs, which contain even smaller spheres of cells, they of atoms and so on. Such an image is very clear for our intellect but we shouldn’t imagine that in the spiritual world we’ll find anywhere such an experience of the Divine, branching into Seraphim, they branching into Cherubim and so on. Just as little human beings on Earth are stringed to one another, so little this is how things are experienced in the spiritual world. This doesn’t negate the idea of hierarchy, the image of Tree of Life and so on. It’s only that we have to learn how to understand them in a way that corresponds to actual experience.

What Eugene keeps bringing up all the time – that in our innermost essence we’re one with the Divine – is a fact. It only becomes twisted when we decide that at some level of experience we’re already identical to the Divine. As a matter of fact, there is no such state where we can say “Now I’m fully the Divine”. Even the possibility to think these thoughts can only arise if we experience ourselves in a very structured way in relation to a whole Cosmic environment.

These things are clear to you. The point is to understand what it means to be an ‘organ’ within the Cosmos. The first thing is to understand that this has nothing to do with being placed in a certain position, like a person can be put on a job. When people rebel against such ideas (of the spiritual hierarchy) it is because they usually conceive of things as if an educated person is given a broom and forced to sweep the streets. In other words, we feel a clear distinction between our sense of self, our self worth and so on, and the function that we have been placed in. This kind of attitude also supports the feeling that we’re a self-sufficient soul bubble that can leave the Solar context altogether and still feel as the same being, only with a changed environment.

So this would be the first thing – to overcome the idea that to be an organ has something to do doing a certain job in the Cosmic corporation. But we should understand these things in a much more fundamental way. For example, we as human beings are part of Earthly life by the mere fact that we exist here. Whether we like it or not, we’re part of that organism, we inhale, transform and exhale air, we ingest and expel liquids and solids, we interact with other life. Thus in one way or another we are part of the Earthly life, we act like organs, transformers in that totality. If one doesn’t want to do that, we must renounce our conscious existence or simply wait and fantasize that we’re ready for something better after death.

When we take the spatial organism analogy too rigidly, it seems that in the higher world we’ll have to assume certain positions. One will be stuck in the toe, another in the ear and so on. Then it’s only natural that one would say “Well, I prefer Earthly existence. There at least I’m free to travel anywhere I want. I don’t want to be stuck as an organ in higher imaginative space.” This of course is an incorrect way to imagine things. There are many more ways in which one can move in soul space. It’s only that these ways become much more conscious. For example, let’s take the migration of the tribes on Earth. There are always some reasons for them. The most immediate are – the search for more fertile land, better climate and so on. Sometimes the spiritual leaders who receive messages from spiritual beings, are inspired to lead the people in a certain direction, for reasons which are not entirely clear, yet serve a greater purpose in the overall development of humanity.

In all these cases, whether they know it or not, people are part of the Cosmic organism. It is only out of ignorance today that people think they are free just because they randomly decide the destination for their next vacation. From a spiritual perspective however, there’s nothing free in this. It’s only that they don’t know the hidden forces that manifest in their likes and dislikes.

In all cases we shouldn’t imagine that to do God’s will means to get stuck in some organ’s position and perform some tedious tasks. This simply translates the analogy in a wrong way. As it has been spoken before, no one can do for us what can only be done from our level. Yahve told Moses in what direction to go but the people still had to do everything themselves. The direction of the travels serves a much greater purpose, through which the evolution of mankind can be furthered. This was understood by the initiates like Moses, even though it might not have been understood why exactly that land was chosen. To answer that a much higher form of consciousness would be needed. To put that in modern mechanistic terms, it would be like simulating all possible paths of migration and the way that will contribute or deter the positive outcome for all humanity. If these things are understood it will be clear that doing God’s will is not about doing one of infinitely many things but following the curvature of the potential that in fact maximizes freedom. For example, we can go through a path where each day is a fight for survival, where our consciousness is severely limited in tunnel vision, only thinking about the ways to get through another day. Or we can follow a path that expands our consciousness, where we can notice the beauty of Nature, we can experiment, explore and so on.

The same thing holds for the future eon. We’ll have a very wide field of activity that would be our proper realm, just like now the sensory world is that realm. Being an organ in that state doesn’t mean that we’ll be stuck motionless and do repetitive tasks but will demand even greater intuition for the way the Cosmos unfolds.

With this I haven’t entered into details about the way the transition between levels occurs, which you called the catastrophic apocalypse, but I wanted to shift the metaphor a little. The key is to realize that what the higher beings do, we can’t do ourselves even if we can grasp its nature through glimpses of higher cognition. We’ll return to that transition.

About your question why we still call the higher being ‘man’: the terms certainly are different at different levels, for example in Western esoterism we have the Spirit-Self, Spirit-Life, Spirit-Man.
I remember that it was strange to me back in the day, why the highest level of self is Spirit-Man. It felt to me that the lowest should be Man (since it would be closer to our present man) and the highest should be something like God. I don’t have the full answer but it certainly has something to do with the ways the ancients derived their words from the spiritual world. They used terms like man-as, at-man, brah-man. Practically everything is man (not in gender sense of course). Even an alien species would be a form of man. Animals, plants and minerals are also what has been expelled from man.

Thank you, Cleric, for addressing my questions.

When trying to conceive of higher beings and how other beings are like organs for them, we should be very cautious about the way we translate our sensory understanding on high, most importantly – that of spatiality. Our thinking about organs is based on our physical bodily organization and there everything can be grasped through geometric intuition – the sphere of the body contains smaller spheres of the organs, which contain even smaller spheres of cells, they of atoms and so on.

To be clear - because you have insisted a lot on what a spiritual organ is not, and all the possible wrong ways to conceive it - the pictorial support I was leveraging to help me think of the condition of 'being an organ' for a higher being, was your previous illustration of the mathematician (organ) living in the idea-solution (higher being) to a mathematical problem together with the other members of a team (other organs). So I was preserved from the pitfall of spatiality, and the pitfall of functional job in the spiritual corporation, as ways to interpret the meaning of being a spiritual organ. I was also preserved from the pitfall of fantasizing that we are not in this moment interconnected organs of a spiritual whole, in some sense. Similarly, I was not putting a grid of tayloristic task execution on the meaning of ‘realizing God’s will’ in future eons. I was only expressing my current inability to fill the ideal question "what is freedom beyond Earthly life made of” with clear meaning and, with it, the intuition that possibly our freedom in God's will would happen less in fits and starts than it does today, amidst the rough pulling and pushing relayed and amplified by the sensory spectrum.

[Cleric K]

To be clear - because you have insisted a lot on what a spiritual organ is not, and all the possible wrong ways to conceive it - the pictorial support I was leveraging to help me think of the condition of 'being an organ' for a higher being, was your previous illustration of the mathematician (organ) living in the idea-solution (higher being) to a mathematical problem together with the other members of a team (other organs). So I was preserved from the pitfall of spatiality, and the pitfall of functional job in the spiritual corporation, as ways to interpret the meaning of being a spiritual organ. I was also preserved from the pitfall of fantasizing that we are not in this moment interconnected organs of a spiritual whole, in some sense. Similarly, I was not putting a grid of tayloristic task execution on the meaning of ‘realizing God’s will’ in future eons.

I guess that when I'm writing here on the forum on some level I always consider that the post may also be read by others. This somewhat tweaks the content and even though I'm replying to you, the answer also addresses questions that may arise in general. So it seems in this case I got carried away explaining things that you already take into account. Sorry about that

I was only expressing my current inability to fill the ideal question "what is freedom beyond Earthly life made of” with clear meaning and, with it, the intuition that possibly our freedom in God's will would happen less in fits and starts than it does today, amidst the rough pulling and pushing relayed and amplified by the sensory spectrum.

This is a good question and right now I don't have some clear cut answer. On Earth what we call freedom is basically the possibility to err. We do that mainly because of ignorance. We steer our WFT based on our limited aperture. When consciousness expands it will probably be more difficult to make such kinds of errors because we'll be more conscious of the way our spiritual activity ripples and affects everything. So on one hand it seems that we're losing our freedom because there're won't be any incentive to do anything impulsive, so to say.

My guess is that freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive and there's no 'right' or 'best' (besides following the general attractor). Thus a spiritual being still makes creative choices and pursues some direction.

[AshvinP]

To be clear - because you have insisted a lot on what a spiritual organ is not, and all the possible wrong ways to conceive it - the pictorial support I was leveraging to help me think of the condition of 'being an organ' for a higher being, was your previous illustration of the mathematician (organ) living in the idea-solution (higher being) to a mathematical problem together with the other members of a team (other organs). So I was preserved from the pitfall of spatiality, and the pitfall of functional job in the spiritual corporation, as ways to interpret the meaning of being a spiritual organ. I was also preserved from the pitfall of fantasizing that we are not in this moment interconnected organs of a spiritual whole, in some sense. Similarly, I was not putting a grid of tayloristic task execution on the meaning of ‘realizing God’s will’ in future eons.

I guess that when I'm writing here on the forum on some level I always consider that the post may also be read by others. This somewhat tweaks the content and even though I'm replying to you, the answer also addresses questions that may arise in general. So it seems in this case I got carried away explaining things that you already take into account. Sorry about that

I was only expressing my current inability to fill the ideal question "what is freedom beyond Earthly life made of” with clear meaning and, with it, the intuition that possibly our freedom in God's will would happen less in fits and starts than it does today, amidst the rough pulling and pushing relayed and amplified by the sensory spectrum.

This is a good question and right now I don't have some clear cut answer. On Earth what we call freedom is basically the possibility to err. We do that mainly because of ignorance. We steer our WFT based on our limited aperture. When consciousness expands it will probably be more difficult to make such kinds of errors because we'll be more conscious of the way our spiritual activity ripples and affects everything. So on one hand it seems that we're losing our freedom because there're won't be any incentive to do anything impulsive, so to say.

My guess is that freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive and there's no 'right' or 'best' (besides following the general attractor). Thus a spiritual being still makes creative choices and pursues some direction.

Related to this question, here is an excerpt from Heindel which may provide some helpful context.

The whole result of initiation is to give to the spiritually aspiring an opportunity to develop the higher faculties and powers in a short time and by severe training, thereby gaining the expansion of consciousness that all mankind will surely possess eventually, but which the vast majority choose to acquire through the slow process of ordinary evolution. We may know the states of consciousness and their concomitant powers attained by the candidate as he passes through successive great Initiations provided we know what those future states and powers will be for humanity in general.

Some hints have been given and more may be logically deduced by an application of the law of Correspondences, to give a fairly rounded picture of the evolution in store for all of us, and the magnitude of the great steps in Initiation. To do this it may help us to glance back over the steps by which the consciousness of man has been evolved through the various Periods.

We remember that during the Saturn Period the unconsciousness of man was similar to that of the dense body when plunged into the deepest trance condition; this was succeeded, in the Sun period, by a dreamless-sleep consciousness. In the Moon Period the first glimmering of waking showed itself in inward pictures of outward things. The entire consciousness consisted of such inward representations of external objects, colors, or sounds. At last, in the latter part of the Atlantean Epoch, this picture consciousness, in which objects could be observed outside, clearly and distinctly outlined in space. When this objective-consciousness was attained, man became aware of an outside world and for the first time thoroughly realized the difference between "self" and "others." He then realized his separateness and thenceforth the "I" consciousness, Egoism, became paramount. As previous to that time there had been no thoughts nor ideas dealing with an outside world, there had consequently been no memory of events.
...
The Objective-Consciousness by which we obtain knowledge of the outside world is dependent upon what we perceive through the medium of the senses. This we call "real," in contradistinction to our thoughts and ideas which come to us through our inner consciousness; their reality is not apparent to us in the same as that of a book or table, or other visible or tangible object in space. Thoughts and ideas seem misty and unreal, therefore we speak of a "mere" thought, or of "just" an idea. The ideas and thoughts of today, however, have an evolution before them; they are destined to become as real, clear and tangible as any of the objects of the outside world which we now perceive through the physical senses. At present, when a thing or a color is thought of, the picture or color presented by the memory to our inner consciousness is but a dim and shadowy one compared with the thing thought of. As early as the Jupiter Period there will be a marked change in this respect. Then the dream-pictures of the Moon Period will return, but they will be subject to the call of the thinker, and not mere reproductions of outer objects. Thus there will be a combination of the pictures of the Moon Period and the thoughts and ideas consciously developed during the Earth Period, that is, it will be a Self-Consciousness Picture-Consciousness.

When a man of the Jupiter Period says "red," or speaks the name of an object, a clear and exact reproduction of the particular shade of red of which he is thinking, or of the object to which he refers, will be presented to his inner vision and will also be quite visible to the hearer. There will be no misconception as to what is meant by the words spoken. Thoughts and ideas will be alive and visible, therefore hypocrisy and flattery will be entirely eliminated. People can be seen exactly as they are. There will be both good and bad, but the two qualities will not be mingled in the same person. person. There will be the thoroughly good man and the downright evil man, and one of the serious problems of that time will be how to deal with the latter. The Manichees, an Order of still higher spirituality than the Rosicrucians, are at present studying that very problem. An idea of the condition anticipated may be gained from a short resume of their legend. (All mystic orders have a legend symbolic of their ideals and aspirations.)
...
The internal pictures of the Moon Period were a certain expression of man's external environment. In the Jupiter Period the pictures will be expressed from within; they will be an outcome of the inner life of the man. He will also possess the additional faculty, which he cultivated in the Earth Period, of seeing things in space outside of himself. In the Moon Period he did not see the concrete thing, but only its soul-qualities. In the Jupiter Period he will see both, and will thus have a thorough perception and understanding of his surroundings. At a later stage in the same Period, this perceptive ability will be succeeded by a still higher phase. His power to form clear mental conceptions of colors, objects, or tones will enable him to contact and influence supersensuous beings of various orders and to secure their obedience, employing their forces as he wishes. He will be unable to send out from himself the forces wherewith to carry out his designs, however, and will be dependent upon the help of these superphysical beings, who will then be at his service.

At the close of the Venus Period he will be able to use his own force to give his pictures life and to set them out from himself as objects in space. He will then possess an Objective, Self-Conscious, Creative-Consciousness . Very little can be said about the high spiritual consciousness which will be attained at the close of the Vulcan Period; it would be quite beyond our present comprehension.

Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception (Illustrated) (p. 399). Kindle Edition.

[Federica]

I guess that when I'm writing here on the forum on some level I always consider that the post may also be read by others. This somewhat tweaks the content and even though I'm replying to you, the answer also addresses questions that may arise in general. So it seems in this case I got carried away explaining things that you already take into account. Sorry about that

I was only expressing my current inability to fill the ideal question "what is freedom beyond Earthly life made of” with clear meaning and, with it, the intuition that possibly our freedom in God's will would happen less in fits and starts than it does today, amidst the rough pulling and pushing relayed and amplified by the sensory spectrum.

This is a good question and right now I don't have some clear cut answer. On Earth what we call freedom is basically the possibility to err. We do that mainly because of ignorance. We steer our WFT based on our limited aperture. When consciousness expands it will probably be more difficult to make such kinds of errors because we'll be more conscious of the way our spiritual activity ripples and affects everything. So on one hand it seems that we're losing our freedom because there're won't be any incentive to do anything impulsive, so to say.

My guess is that freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive and there's no 'right' or 'best' (besides following the general attractor). Thus a spiritual being still makes creative choices and pursues some direction.

Thank you, Cleric. Yes, I keep in mind that we are various readers of your posts here, which is why I linked your example of the mathematician. I hope it's been revisited, and that its clarity has helped others as it has helped me!
Regarding the meaning of freedom beyond Earthly incarnation, the question popped up - probably as a consequence of reading at the same time this essay and the start of von Halle's mentioned book - but I realize I have countless other questions that are more relevant and necessary for me to work with at this point

[Federica]

I was only expressing my current inability to fill the ideal question "what is freedom beyond Earthly life made of” with clear meaning and, with it, the intuition that possibly our freedom in God's will would happen less in fits and starts than it does today, amidst the rough pulling and pushing relayed and amplified by the sensory spectrum.

This is a good question and right now I don't have some clear cut answer. On Earth what we call freedom is basically the possibility to err. We do that mainly because of ignorance. We steer our WFT based on our limited aperture. When consciousness expands it will probably be more difficult to make such kinds of errors because we'll be more conscious of the way our spiritual activity ripples and affects everything. So on one hand it seems that we're losing our freedom because there're won't be any incentive to do anything impulsive, so to say.

My guess is that freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive and there's no 'right' or 'best' (besides following the general attractor). Thus a spiritual being still makes creative choices and pursues some direction.

Related to this question, here is an excerpt from Heindel which may provide some helpful context.

The whole result of initiation is to give to the spiritually aspiring an opportunity to develop the higher faculties and powers in a short time and by severe training, thereby gaining the expansion of consciousness that all mankind will surely possess eventually, but which the vast majority choose to acquire through the slow process of ordinary evolution. We may know the states of consciousness and their concomitant powers attained by the candidate as he passes through successive great Initiations provided we know what those future states and powers will be for humanity in general.

Some hints have been given and more may be logically deduced by an application of the law of Correspondences, to give a fairly rounded picture of the evolution in store for all of us, and the magnitude of the great steps in Initiation. To do this it may help us to glance back over the steps by which the consciousness of man has been evolved through the various Periods.

We remember that during the Saturn Period the unconsciousness of man was similar to that of the dense body when plunged into the deepest trance condition; this was succeeded, in the Sun period, by a dreamless-sleep consciousness. In the Moon Period the first glimmering of waking showed itself in inward pictures of outward things. The entire consciousness consisted of such inward representations of external objects, colors, or sounds. At last, in the latter part of the Atlantean Epoch, this picture consciousness, in which objects could be observed outside, clearly and distinctly outlined in space. When this objective-consciousness was attained, man became aware of an outside world and for the first time thoroughly realized the difference between "self" and "others." He then realized his separateness and thenceforth the "I" consciousness, Egoism, became paramount. As previous to that time there had been no thoughts nor ideas dealing with an outside world, there had consequently been no memory of events.
...
The Objective-Consciousness by which we obtain knowledge of the outside world is dependent upon what we perceive through the medium of the senses. This we call "real," in contradistinction to our thoughts and ideas which come to us through our inner consciousness; their reality is not apparent to us in the same as that of a book or table, or other visible or tangible object in space. Thoughts and ideas seem misty and unreal, therefore we speak of a "mere" thought, or of "just" an idea. The ideas and thoughts of today, however, have an evolution before them; they are destined to become as real, clear and tangible as any of the objects of the outside world which we now perceive through the physical senses. At present, when a thing or a color is thought of, the picture or color presented by the memory to our inner consciousness is but a dim and shadowy one compared with the thing thought of. As early as the Jupiter Period there will be a marked change in this respect. Then the dream-pictures of the Moon Period will return, but they will be subject to the call of the thinker, and not mere reproductions of outer objects. Thus there will be a combination of the pictures of the Moon Period and the thoughts and ideas consciously developed during the Earth Period, that is, it will be a Self-Consciousness Picture-Consciousness.

When a man of the Jupiter Period says "red," or speaks the name of an object, a clear and exact reproduction of the particular shade of red of which he is thinking, or of the object to which he refers, will be presented to his inner vision and will also be quite visible to the hearer. There will be no misconception as to what is meant by the words spoken. Thoughts and ideas will be alive and visible, therefore hypocrisy and flattery will be entirely eliminated. People can be seen exactly as they are. There will be both good and bad, but the two qualities will not be mingled in the same person. person. There will be the thoroughly good man and the downright evil man, and one of the serious problems of that time will be how to deal with the latter. The Manichees, an Order of still higher spirituality than the Rosicrucians, are at present studying that very problem. An idea of the condition anticipated may be gained from a short resume of their legend. (All mystic orders have a legend symbolic of their ideals and aspirations.)
...
The internal pictures of the Moon Period were a certain expression of man's external environment. In the Jupiter Period the pictures will be expressed from within; they will be an outcome of the inner life of the man. He will also possess the additional faculty, which he cultivated in the Earth Period, of seeing things in space outside of himself. In the Moon Period he did not see the concrete thing, but only its soul-qualities. In the Jupiter Period he will see both, and will thus have a thorough perception and understanding of his surroundings. At a later stage in the same Period, this perceptive ability will be succeeded by a still higher phase. His power to form clear mental conceptions of colors, objects, or tones will enable him to contact and influence supersensuous beings of various orders and to secure their obedience, employing their forces as he wishes. He will be unable to send out from himself the forces wherewith to carry out his designs, however, and will be dependent upon the help of these superphysical beings, who will then be at his service.

At the close of the Venus Period he will be able to use his own force to give his pictures life and to set them out from himself as objects in space. He will then possess an Objective, Self-Conscious, Creative-Consciousness . Very little can be said about the high spiritual consciousness which will be attained at the close of the Vulcan Period; it would be quite beyond our present comprehension.

Heindel , Max. The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception (Illustrated) (p. 399). Kindle Edition.

Thanks Ashvin, that's so clearly written and concrete.
With a somewhat different focus, von Halle also points to this question at the end of Descent into the depths of the Earth. It's a small book, but I had to read it very slowly to get a chance to register the content at some level, so I only came to the following today:

On Venus, human beings will begin to work through this [earthly] core and what constitutes it. Rudolf Steiner only hinted at the forces of this nine layer [of the Earth], which are so difficult for contemporary human beings to understand. The oldest and most evolved part of the human body, the head, and the brain formed within it, along with the reproductive forces, are connected with this nine layer. Dominion over these forces is currently held by the highest hierarchy. When, by permeating this nine layer in a way entirely imbued with morality, human beings begin to master the development and elaboration of human corporeality, and even to hold sway over the creation of their species, they will penetrate into the realm of God the Father. The complete transformation of forces that create the physical body will occur when we begin to develop a resurrection body on Venus (...)


[von Halle, J. (2011). Descent into the Depths of the Earth. Temple Lodge Publishing]

[Federica]

On Earth what we call freedom is basically the possibility to err. We do that mainly because of ignorance. We steer our WFT based on our limited aperture. When consciousness expands it will probably be more difficult to make such kinds of errors because we'll be more conscious of the way our spiritual activity ripples and affects everything. So on one hand it seems that we're losing our freedom because there're won't be any incentive to do anything impulsive, so to say.

Cleric, as I understand it, this idea of freedom is not in alignment with either Steiners or Leyfs?

In Steiner (PoF) when we follow in action our individual moral intuition, our willed activity is free not because we had the possibility to alternatively act impulsively and follow our lower instincts, for example, or an egoistic motive, and err, but because we could find solely within ourselves the drive and the goal towards a certain course of action, by attaining to objective ideal reality and letting the purely ideal content interfere with our unique context and individuality, in order to formulate our intents, and will them.

So if this is correct, one could doubt that for the future man "freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive"?

[Cleric K]

Cleric, as I understand it, this idea of freedom is not in alignment with either Steiners or Leyfs?

In Steiner (PoF) when we follow in action our individual moral intuition, our willed activity is free not because we had the possibility to alternatively act impulsively and follow our lower instincts, for example, or an egoistic motive, and err, but because we could find solely within ourselves the drive and the goal towards a certain course of action, by attaining to objective ideal reality and letting the purely ideal content interfere with our unique context and individuality, in order to formulate our intents, and will them.

That's right. What I wrote was not about freedom in the PoF sense. It was more about what the normal person of today would say freedom is. Actually not many people will say that freedom has anything to do with the possibility to err. Probably it rather would be that there should be no external factors that dictate WFT (of course a desire in that case is not seen as a possibly foreign factor, instead it is taken as defining part of what one is and thus satisfying a desire is seen as expression of freedom). Anyway. We can look at things from many angles but in that case I wanted to point out that if we don't understand freedom in the spiritual sense, then evolution to higher stages may be seen as losing freedom. For example, if someone is told that they have to investigate deeply their desires instead of jumping impulsively into their satisfaction, this could be seen as the opposite of freedom from their perspective.

So if this is correct, one could doubt that for the future man "freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive"?

I'm not sure I followed the logic here. What more precisely you find doubtful?

[Federica]

Cleric, as I understand it, this idea of freedom is not in alignment with either Steiners or Leyfs?

In Steiner (PoF) when we follow in action our individual moral intuition, our willed activity is free not because we had the possibility to alternatively act impulsively and follow our lower instincts, for example, or an egoistic motive, and err, but because we could find solely within ourselves the drive and the goal towards a certain course of action, by attaining to objective ideal reality and letting the purely ideal content interfere with our unique context and individuality, in order to formulate our intents, and will them.

That's right. What I wrote was not about freedom in the PoF sense. It was more about what the normal person of today would say freedom is. Actually not many people will say that freedom has anything to do with the possibility to err. Probably it rather would be that there should be no external factors that dictate WFT (of course a desire in that case is not seen as a possibly foreign factor, instead it is taken as defining part of what one is and thus satisfying a desire is seen as expression of freedom). Anyway. We can look at things from many angles but in that case I wanted to point out that if we don't understand freedom in the spiritual sense, then evolution to higher stages may be seen as losing freedom. For example, if someone is told that they have to investigate deeply their desires instead of jumping impulsively into their satisfaction, this could be seen as the opposite of freedom from their perspective.

So if this is correct, one could doubt that for the future man "freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive"?

I'm not sure I followed the logic here. What more precisely you find doubtful?

I get your point, that, if we intend freedom in the common sense of having a variety of alternative courses of action to choose from, then evolution to higher stages may seem to imply a loss of freedom. Then I don't understand your conclusion on what freedom beyond earthly life could be made of:

My guess is that freedom at that stage will be connected with the fact that within the volume of potential which would result in a healthy unfoldment, there are nevertheless very many different possibilities which could be mutually exclusive and there's no 'right' or 'best' (besides following the general attractor). Thus a spiritual being still makes creative choices and pursues some direction.

because you still seem to refer to the common idea of freedom (many possibilities to choose from in the volume of potential)?