Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 4:00 pm
If you could elaborate a bit on how you think my comment overlooked Cleric's point about intellectual thinking vs the intellectual soul, I could more easily comment on it.
Yes. Your contention was:
Rodriel Gabrez wrote: ↑Wed Oct 15, 2025 12:51 pm
One must remember that Steiner's earthly work was done a century ago, when conditions were quite different than today. They are of course the same in many respects, and the overarching movements of world evolution are still the same; but many of the details have indeed changed. In Steiner's time, there was as of yet little danger of the intellectual soul becoming atrophied like we are beginning to see today. For the consciousness soul to unfold properly, it must occur atop a fully developed, intellectual soul. We of course find quotes like the following from Steiner on this point:
Essential as it is first of all to undergo the discipline of sound, reasoned thinking before attempting to enter the higher worlds, it is equally essential to rise above this ordinary thinking to immediate apprehension. And just because it is necessary to have this faculty of immediate apprehension in the higher world, the preparatory training in logical thinking is essential, for otherwise our feelings would quite certainly lead us into error. With ordinary intellectual thinking we are incapable of judging rightly in the higher world, but equally we are incapable of judging rightly in that world if we have not first trained our intellectual thinking in the physical world, and then, at a suitable moment, are able to be oblivious of it. Some people consider that this characteristic quality of the higher kind of thinking, the thinking of the heart, is a reason for discarding ordinary logic altogether. They say that as it has eventually to be forgotten there is no need to assimilate it first of all. But in saying this they disregard the fact that logical thinking is a training for making oneself a different man. In logical thinking we experience above all a kind of conscience, and by developing that we establish in the soul a certain sense of responsibility towards truth and untruth, without which nothing can be achieved in the higher worlds.
So while, yes, it is true that the intellectual soul which seeks keep the soul forever in its own element is regressive, forces which work to erode the intellectual soul are equally regressive in a different way. Rome is the primary defender of the intellectual soul in our day, in a time when this faculty is being eroded from all sides. The situation has changed, and we can't simply take every word Steiner ever said about the world of the 1910s as a rock solid guide to our current world. And even when we do take Steiner's statements in isolation, we also must remember that a critique of something is not an argument for the absolute rejection of that thing but an invitation for its change/transformation.
Here's why I don't think this line of reasoning is ideal. It has to do with the difference between intellectual
soul and one of its modes of thinking: sound logical thinking.
As I understand it, Cleric proposed that Tomberg’s identity is an elevated expression of the intellectual soul, expanded in the astral world, like Hegel is an elevated expression of the same intellectual soul expanded in the physical-etheric world. This illustrates what Steiner laid out in Theosophy: how the intellectual
soul can express thinking in various gradations, from mere overlay to the instincts (because the intellectual soul is still drenched in them), to intellectual sense-bound, to sense-free.
Now what you quoted above from Steiner is not a reference to the intellectual soul at large, but only to one of its possible modes of thinking. He is warning that, as a preparation for the supersensible, sound logical thinking needs to be strengthened, as for example in the first subsidiary exercise, in which a physical object and its logical extensions come into focus. He doesn’t say that the intellectual
soul needs consolidation in order to ascend to the supersensible, but that logical thinking gestures should be properly developed, on the support of the sensory spectrum, so that later a similar logic and sense can manifest, to protect the student from illusion in the supersensible, when the direct feedback of sensation is missing.
By contrast, the intellectual soul,
as expressed in an individual, can be larger than the mere capacity of sound thinking, or smaller, when it remains undeveloped and coincident with the sentient soul, in instinct-driven individuals. And there is also a broader collective dimension to it. In this collective dimension in particular, the intellectual soul still has a fateful dynamic, as I understand it. That is, its trajectory in the destiny of humanity doesn't necessarily only depend on the will and spiritual activity of specific individuals. The intellectual soul has come, and keeps coming to man, through the activity of higher beings, as a gift. As if someone gifted you drawing paper and pastels to encourage you to draw. In this way, the intellectual soul has now established itself, and cannot be compromised just because there is intellectual erosion within certain human groups. Rather, it is now available ‘out there’, to serve as fruitful foundation for those who will purposefully nourish it, to enable its expansion as consciousness soul. In this sense, the current erosion of sound thinking you speak of - it’s clear there is one - is not an erosion of the intellectual soul.
Yes, because development inevitably happen by streams, many will have to follow at a later stage. But my point is that the shriveling of thought in certain groups does not compromise the emergence of the consciousness soul in other groups, on the solid foundation of the intellectual soul. Therefore, the role of an organization that works for the spirit today should be to fuel the transformation of soul along the path of knowledge, by appealing to the ones who are able to listen, who are karmically ready, not to preserve and institutionalize a supposedly endangered intellectual soul. That foundation is there, ready to play its function for those who can leverage it. But to deprive those souls of the sparkle they may need, through the action of a regressive Church, would lead to failure on the whole front: the eroded souls would not listen anyway, and the ones who have potential to move further would be lulled, and held back, rather than stimulated and encouraged.
PS: As a side note, Steiner didn't only speak on the basis of the social and historical dynamics prevailing in his time. Rather, he was able to clairvoyantly map the potential ahead, and foresee possible future dynamics.
Spiritual Science does not need any organization resembling the ancient churches, because it appeals to every single person. Every single person can, out of their own conscience and sound reason, visualize what Spiritual Science delivers and its results and can, from this perspective, confess to Spiritual Science. Rudolf Steiner